Depth Chart Project. Shall we?

[costarg]

33 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Would you benefit from a comparison? The amount of Canadian teenagers that have received 250 minutes or more by Canadian MLS clubs this season is 0.

Seriously?  JMR had well over 250 this season before he turned 20 a few weeks ago. 

And I included 20 year olds for the CPL numbers, so you can also add Zouhir and Saliba who also captained CFM.  

34 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

There are loads of developing talents in CPL. Very strange take on your part 

Like I said, I found 7-8 who actually played more than 2 matches.   Who are the "loads"?  I was asking sincerely, maybe i'm missing something, but would appreciate some detail if you can give it.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Seriously?  JMR had well over 250 this season before he turned 20 a few weeks ago. 

And I included 20 year olds for the CPL numbers, so you can also add Zouhir and Saliba who also captained CFM.  

Like I said, I found 7-8 who actually played more than 2 matches.   Who are the "loads"?  I was asking sincerely, maybe i'm missing something, but would appreciate some detail if you can give it.

Zouhir hasn't met your minutes requirement. These may be a good place to start if you're not following the league 

https://canpl.ca/u-21-minutes-played/

https://www.transfermarkt.com/canadian-premier-league/juengsteaelteste/wettbewerb/CDN1

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 hours ago, costarg said:

I just did the work.  I went with 20 and under and found 7 - 8 players with over 250' this season across the league...

Agree with the main thrust of your argument but it's worth highlighting that 250' is still a low bar to set things at after 14 games given it's often motivated by the need to hit 2000 minutes on the U21 rule rather than representing playing time that is genuinely merited/earned. That means the young player is potentially being treated as a passenger to be avoided in passing terms by his teammates. Won't name names but that's been obvious sometimes this season.

The issue beyond that is that there is no fully pro reserve or pro youth setup for these guys so they are being farmed out to L1 level (where that's possible, not doable in Halifax and Winnipeg) where there's also likely to be a strong win now focus in many cases. Calgary and Hamilton are the only ones where they are likely more focused on player development of CanPL prospects than the result at League One level. That will probably only last as long as Bobby Smyrniotis is still around with the Forge where Sigma are concerned though.

Edited July 20 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[costarg]

7 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Zouhir hasn't met your minutes requirement. These may be a good place to start if you're not following the league 

https://canpl.ca/u-21-minutes-played/

https://www.transfermarkt.com/canadian-premier-league/juengsteaelteste/wettbewerb/CDN1

OK so now we're throwing in 21 yr old minutes for CPL as well?  You keep moving the goal posts.  Pretty hard to keep up, but ok.  About the 7-8 guys I mentioned I included Canadian Championship minutes as well, if we remove those like you did for Zouhir the number will be even smaller for CPL.  Besides Zouhir has over 500' in MLS counting other years. 

Either way, your point about 0 being developed by Canadian MLS teams is wrong.  If we count the U20's on CPL clubs with over 2 matches played we have 8 for 8 clubs, MLS 3 on 3 clubs.  So it's actually the same ratio per team if we break it down that way.

Even if we use the stats you provided including U21, we get 14 guys with over 2 matches (in minutes) played this year.  You need to understand 2 matches can barely be considered enough playing time to really develop someone, so the bar is really low here.   Not to mention including U21 will just tilt the scale more in favor of MLS clubs.

Anyway, the point here is not to bash CPL.  We obviously all want it to work.  My only questions are, is it doing well enough after 5 years?  Is it on the right path?  I'm trying to understand what we see as success for CPL.  Is it to field the best teams possible with as many Canadians as possible or rather to develop and create a strong pipe line and better option for young Canadian talent?  Should it and can it be a loan destination for the 3 MLS clubs?  Will a 16 year old see this path as a solid option to go pro and make it to CANMNT?  Are the teams developed enough to scout talent all over Canada?  Once scouted, do they have the infrastructure and team in place to properly develop these kids?  If not, is there a plan to?

[narduch]

People are expecting the CPL to do in 5 years what the 3 MLS clubs haven't even really managed to do in 17 years

[narduch]

I'm skimming our 26 man roster for Copa and maybe only 2 guys could be considered MLS in Canada Academy success stories (Crepeau and Choinière).

In terms of a player starting with the club at a very young age and becoming a Mens National Team player

 

Edited July 20 by narduch

[costarg]

25 minutes ago, narduch said:

People are expecting the CPL to do in 5 years what the 3 MLS clubs haven't even really managed to do in 17 years

I'll just go with Montreal, in their first 5 years:

Tabla was developed and got transfered to Barcelona.

All these guys made it to CANMNT: 
Tabla
AJH
Crepeau
Tissot
Ouimette
Lefevre
Gagnon-Laparé
Béland-Goyette
Bekker

Don't get me wrong, not saying CPL has failed, they also have success with Waterman and Zator, and I could be forgetting others.   

Edited July 20 by costarg

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

I'll just go with Montreal, in their first 5 years:

Tabla was developed and got transfered to Barcelona.

All these guys made it to CANMNT: 
Tabla
AJH
Crepeau
Tissot
Ouimette
Lefevre
Gagnon-Laparé
Béland-Goyette
Bekker

 

But the National team was a lot easier to make when a lot of these guys made it.

 

 

[costarg]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

But the National team was a lot easier to make when a lot of these guys made it.

 

 

Absolutely.  All I'm saying is, I wouldn't say Montreal failed development wise which your statement seemed to suggest "People are expecting the CPL to do in 5 years what the 3 MLS clubs haven't even really managed to do in 17 years".

Their academy hit the ground running and has produced many pro's still playing at a good level including CPL.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

Absolutely.  All I'm saying is, I wouldn't say Montreal failed development wise which your statement seemed to suggest "People are expecting the CPL to do in 5 years what the 3 MLS clubs haven't even really managed to do in 17 years"...

Some of the posts in this thread remind me a bit of this Bill Hicks clip:

Let me strap myself in. I have a one name question, Alphonso Davies? Or in more recent terms, Jacob Shaffelburg? These people aren't driven by rationality. CanPL is going to be the one true path on player development no matter what because it's got Canadian in its name.

[Onelessstar]

11 hours ago, Aird25 said:

There are 8 island boys on the squad. That's more professionals than the island has produced in a very long time. Probably in my life time. At least 3 of them are 17 or younger. They also have the academy

8? Island boys? On the roster? That see game time or even dress? No. 

Yes... there are a few who are 27 years + (maybe 1 who is younger) that's not any kind of "development" that will impact the national team. 

 

 

[mpg_29]

Saying the CPL is pointless would land a lot harder if we were not capped at having only 3 MLS teams.

Relying on 3 teams to develop a wide pool of players isn't going to be nearly as good as having 10+.

Also while Montreal has done well I'm not sure the same can necessarily be said of TFC and Vancouver. Vancouver had Davies but that was sort of impossible to fuck up or miss given he is a 1-in-a-million type player. MLSE in particular seems to view it's sports teams as entertainment cash cows first and foremost.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Saying the CPL is pointless would land a lot harder...

Could you point us to a post on here where someone actually has said that?

[P-O]

I don't know why negativity is primary on this topic for the last 2 pages.

I go back 10 years ago, and the only way we have that many prospects, clubs, a World cup appearance & a 1/2 final at Copa was by playing FM & using the editor.

Let the D3 & the CPL do its job. It is slowly but surely working.

Kids can play & can envision a future in football. We will be even better when players like Piette & Pantemis finish their career in a CPL club in the province of Québec.

I was patient 39 years, I can wait a decade for this to become an amazing soccer country.

Edited July 20 by P-O

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

13 minutes ago, P-O said:

I don't know why negativity is primary on this topic for the last 2 pages.

I go back 10 years ago, and the only way we have that many prospects, clubs, a World cup appearance & a 1/2 final at Copa was by playing FM & using the editor.

Let the D3 & the CPL do its job. It is slowly but surement working...

The CMNT rising to 40 in the world rankings, or whatever it is, has unfolded primarily because of MLS expansion into Canada around 15 years ago and what subsequently happened on merit based pro youth academies. Worth noting that even a player like Dominick Zator was with the Whitecaps 2 in USL before CanPL emerged.

Having more pro soccer in Canada is inherently a good thing but the scale of the investment made by the CSB investors into player development in the 14-20 age group will need to increase substantially before the emergence of CanPL is likely to make a huge difference over and above what has already been happening.

It would have helped considerably if they had been more cooperative with the concept of working with MLS to enhance the pathway for their academy players. Oliver Gage's recent tweets are worth a look on that topic:

 

Edited July 20 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[mpg_29]

7 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Could you point us to a post on here where someone actually has said that?

Not playing this game. Either address the general point of my post or don't. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Your general point is a bogus strawman.

[Aird25]

19 minutes ago, Onelessstar said:

8? Island boys? On the roster? That see game time or even dress? No. 

Yes... there are a few who are 27 years + (maybe 1 who is younger) that's not any kind of "development" that will impact the national team. 

 

 

Your comment was literally that there aren't many island boys on the squad, let alone 16-17 year olds. Heard, Young, Zanatta, Melvin, Marvasti, Zadravec, Vales, Edgson are all island boys. There are a lot of minutes between them. Four of them came through the academy. Three of them are 16 or 17. Other academy players have been called up on short term loans.  Not to mention Merriman is an island boy too. For years hardly anyone made it pro from the island, and if they did they had to leave when they were very young. I presume this is the case in other towns that didn't have a pro team as well.

Greco-Taylor isn't an island boy, but he's with Canada's U20s right now. I wouldn't be surprised if Gazdov gets a move to Europe soon, and I think he has national team potential of he continues to develop. I'm continually amazed how resistant national team fans are to support this league. In 14 matches Pacific have given 2500+ minutes to U21 Canadians and that's with releasing players for national team duty and an illness for our starting 20 year old keeper. People are allowed to be fans of MLS teams and not constantly bash our domestic league

[Onelessstar]

Not seeing where Vales, Marvasti, Edson, or Zadrevec are seeing minutes and, again, the over 27s don't really support your development argument. 

 

Actually, ON the roster I see three under 20s who have 7 league appearances between them this season. Vales the only island boy (0 appearances). And, yeah, I know the Merrimans and it is fantastic that they are coaching. Great family.

Edited July 21 by Onelessstar

[eramosat]

Looks like this topic has traction.

I have nothing to offer on individual player rankings.  Only that the rankings consider bands of rankings, instead of absolute heirarchy numbers...like A B C grades, or whatever dominant soccer ranking already exists.  Will ultimately make it much easier for a multi-person debate if there's basic agreement that "both players are a B" as opposed to ensuring which one is ahead of the other.  And that they are instead compared to to the entire rank ahead, and behind them.

Good luck.  This will test a lot of your people skills.

 

Apolgies if this has already been done.

[Aird25]

20 minutes ago, Onelessstar said:

Not seeing where Vales, Marvasti, Edson, or Zadrevec are seeing minutes and, again, the over 27s don't really support your development argument. 

Mate, I'm just correcting your statement that there aren't island boys on the squad. You're wrong 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The CMNT rising to 40 in the world rankings, or whatever it is, has unfolded primarily because of MLS expansion into Canada around 15 years ago and what subsequently happened on merit based pro youth academies. Worth noting that even a player like Dominick Zator was with the Whitecaps 2 in USL before CanPL emerged.

Having more pro soccer in Canada is inherently a good thing but the scale of the investment made by the CSB investors into player development in the 14-20 age group will need to increase substantially before the emergence of CanPL is likely to make a huge difference over and above what has already been happening.

It would have helped considerably if they had been more cooperative with the concept of working with MLS to enhance the pathway for their academy players. Oliver Gage's recent tweets are worth a look on that topic:

 

Thanks for sharing, it's exactly what I was saying about focusing and creating a pathway specifically for 17-20 year olds.  That is what CPL needs to focus on in my view and the point i've been trying to make.  The matches i've seen did not give me that impression, seems more like the coaches are focused on their own results, which to be fair is understandable and happens in all leagues.  However, if CPL wants to succeed and make an impact, I think that's where they need to focus.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

I'm continually amazed how resistant national team fans are to support this league.  People are allowed to be fans of MLS teams and not constantly bash our domestic league

Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see or know of anyone that's resistant to support CPL.  Pretty sure we all know and understand the importance.  I saw people make points and defend other points.  On my end, I stated my observations and asked questions.  No one bashed CPL.

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

In 14 matches Pacific have given 2500+ minutes to U21 Canadians and that's with releasing players for national team duty and an illness for our starting 20 year old keeper.

Pacific being the best example and the over-achiever has given 3 U21 guys real minutes.  The rest of the teams average about 1 U21 per team getting decent minutes.  I just hoped it would be more, exactly in line with what Marsch is saying. 

[Onelessstar]

20 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Mate, I'm just correcting your statement that there aren't island boys on the squad. You're wrong 

I clearly didn't make the point I meant to make... or you chose to miss it. You should get my point now. And..  there were more island players in the CSL than there are now, it seems. I'm sure you will correct me on that, though... mate.

Edited July 20 by Onelessstar

[mpg_29]

Some of the issue may be that young talent is not distributed evenly across the country. For example York probably has an easier time tapping into young domestic talent than the Wanderers.

Really if you were to build the CPL around young talent at least 50% of the teams off the bat would be in Ontario/Quebec.