Depth Chart Project. Shall we?

[Aird25]

23 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Perhaps, then, that's a coaching issue at Pacific?

It's not at all. Lajeunesse, Mukumbilwa, Ndom, and Amedume are all currently better options at LB (2 of them are only 21) and we have a plethora of players that are better options at DM. That's not meant as a knock on Greco-Taylor, but there are certainly players on Pacific, and elsewhere within CPL, thart are closer to the senior national team level than the u20 players.

And still, other than our injured Frenchman, the best player on the squad is a 20 year old Colombian

Edited July 19 by Aird25

[costarg]

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

While I would agree it’s likely too late we have to remind ourselves that the World Cup is in 23 months and 21 months ago not even the most hardcore fans on this forum knew who Bombito was - a player who is now being touted as not just a Canada regular but one of the best players to ever come out of our country. This already played out with multiple others including Tani, Johnston etc. History actually says that the chances are relatively high that a player moves to a higher level and breaks through from CPL prior to the World Cup. 
 

So from our Copa squad of 26 we had 2-4 players (Bombito, Tani, Ahmed, Hiebert) almost no one had heard of 20 months prior. We had another in Bair who most thought would be in CPL now. Point being none of us can probably predict the 2026 roster with even 80% accuracy right now. There are more players to come. 

But that's just it, none of the players mentioned went through the CPL pipeline.  Like @YorkRegionFan says, I think Marsch wants to get to know the coaches and the level of people involved to understand how come US Colleges and the other routes are more successful than CPL in getting guys to CANMNT.  

[mpg_29]

I mean if a 24 year old player didn't go through the CPL pipeline that wouldn't be crazy considering the CPL has only been around 5 years..

[Aird25]

51 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

I mean if a 24 year old player didn't go through the CPL pipeline that wouldn't be crazy considering the CPL has only been around 5 years..

Exactly. It's just another example of a player finding their way through the American system before CPL. I hope we don't entirely lose that pathway, but I imagine it will become increasingly less common as our own system develops

Edited July 19 by Aird25

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, mpg_29 said:

I mean if a 24 year old player didn't go through the CPL pipeline that wouldn't be crazy considering the CPL has only been around 5 years..

It's the sixth season of the league this summer. If we are talking about Moise Bombito here it's worth noting he only started in the NCAA pathway that led him to MLS in 2020 after CanPL was already up and running. He was 18 when they held open tryouts in Montreal in the run up to the league's launch. Would be interesting to see if he attended and whether he got an invite to the second day like Stefan Mitrovic did in Hamilton.

[Aird25]

15 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It's the sixth season of the league this summer. If we are talking about Moise Bombito here it's worth noting he only started in the NCAA pathway that led him to MLS in 2020 after CanPL was already up and running. He was 18 when they held open tryouts in Montreal in the run up to the league's launch. Would be interesting to see if he attended and whether he got an invite to the second day like Stefan Mitrovic did in Hamilton.

Bombito opted not to enter the Canadian pyramid before CPL even started. He chose college instead of Première ligue de soccer du Québec.

[CanadaFan123]

2 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

I mean if a 24 year old player didn't go through the CPL pipeline that wouldn't be crazy considering the CPL has only been around 5 years..

Also CPL will be seen as a more viable option, as opposed to university, as time passes. The level is improving each year. I think it is plausible that if current version of Ottawa was around in 2016-2017 that Jonathan David would find his way on that team. 
 

 

[narduch]

54 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It's the sixth season of the league this summer. If we are talking about Moise Bombito here it's worth noting he only started in the NCAA pathway that led him to MLS in 2020 after CanPL was already up and running. He was 18 when they held open tryouts in Montreal in the run up to the league's launch. Would be interesting to see if he attended and whether he got an invite to the second day like Stefan Mitrovic did in Hamilton.

The MLS clubs have also been around 13-17 years.

They have way more resources than the CPL clubs. Why aren't they finding and developing this sort of talent?

Edited July 19 by narduch

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

37 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Also CPL will be seen as a more viable option, as opposed to university, as time passes. The level is improving each year. I think it is plausible that if current version of Ottawa was around in 2016-2017 that Jonathan David would find his way on that team.

The Ottawa Fury were in the NASL and then the USL at that point and by all accounts were operating at a higher budget than CanPL teams currently do. Don't see any obvious reason why Jonathan David would have signed in a CanPL context when he didn't in a USL one. In a similar sort of way FC Edmonton were around when Alphonso Davies was emerging onto the scene.

I understand why a lot of posters on here have this deep emotional need for CanPL to be the dominant pathway in CMNT terms but they would need to start investing in merit based academies to the extent MLS clubs do for that to be in any way likely. What would Jacob Shaffelburg's pathway onto the Wanderers roster have been like when their U-23 team only plays a few games each summer? 

[narduch]

12 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I understand why a lot of posters on here have this deep emotional need for CanPL to be the dominant pathway in CMNT terms

Its not an either/or thing. You can keep trying to call it that. 

You are totally off the mark as usual.

The point is to have more professional pathways for our players.

We are better off today than we were in 2018. 

Just because the results aren't showing as quickly as we had hoped it doesn't mean the 2018 status quo was the right way.

Funny how you avoid critiquing the 3 MLS clubs though on their poor development track record.

Edited July 19 by narduch

[AnonymousInsider]

6 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

In proportion to the strengths of their respective national teams, I would say that the CPL is to Canada what the Croatian League is to Croatia.

The day the CPL has a 21-year-old worth 20 million (Baturina) is when I stop worrying about our system altogether. I agree that is what the CPL can be, where the very top players can get call-ups while the vast majority are waiting to transfer out to break through at a higher level elsewhere before getting called up, but I believe that is a decade or two away.

[shorty]

5 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Perhaps, then, that's a coaching issue at Pacific?

That's an everybody-loves-Dada-Luke-for-some-reason issue.  If KDL could produce a final ball, I would get it.  But he can't.  And he's a defensive liability half the time.  I would love to see Lajeunesse and Greco-Taylor on the outsides, but I don't think it's going to happen.  Even the 1-in-10 threat of KDL burning down the wing and putting in a decent ball is enough to give the opposition pause.  

[shorty]

5 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Lajeunesse, Mukumbilwa, Ndom, and Amedume are all currently better options at LB

Agree with your post, other than the fact that Ndom is not currently a better option.

[Onelessstar]

6 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Perhaps, then, that's a coaching issue at Pacific?

Isn't it, like I believe Marsch identified, that CPL has become a "win now" league where some/most coaches are to justify their existence via their standing in the league table.

As such, developing/giving first team time and opportunities to u20s is not prioritized. It takes local clubs (i.e. 86ers identifying and nurturing Dom Mobilio etc) committing to youth to ably aid in the development of potential national team level players. Pacific FC are but one example of teams missing these opportunities -- not many island boys on that squad... let alone 16-17 year olds.

[narduch]

I'm not sure Pacific FC is the right team to single out.

They have one of the youngest teams in the league.

A team like HFX Wanderers is very bad and is way behind on their mandatory U21 minutes 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Just stop talking about CPL and Marsch: there is nothing of interest in the league for him. I mean, it's fine, it has a development role, it serves small new fan bases, it gives work to 100+ Canadian players. But it has no real direct connection to our national programmes, even with the u-20s it makes a thin contribution.

I wouldn't read anything into it, he's not going to bring up anyone and it just has to do with being nice and adding a dose of flattery and appeasement. 

[Aird25]

9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Just stop talking about CPL and Marsch: there is nothing of interest in the league for him. I mean, it's fine, it has a development role, it serves small new fan bases, it gives work to 100+ Canadian players. But it has no real direct connection to our national programmes, even with the u-20s it makes a thin contribution.

I wouldn't read anything into it, he's not going to bring up anyone and it just has to do with being nice and adding a dose of flattery and appeasement. 

It's just an interview with the gaffer, mate. Why does that bother you so much?

[costarg]

7 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Exactly. It's just another example of a player finding their way through the American system before CPL. I hope we don't entirely lose that pathway, but I imagine it will become increasingly less common as our own system develops

 

8 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

I mean if a 24 year old player didn't go through the CPL pipeline that wouldn't be crazy considering the CPL has only been around 5 years..

Ok, so 5 years in, how many 17-19 year olds are currently playing regularly and being developed to reach a higher level?  I know of a few, but its a tiny number compared to what we'd expect 5 years in, no?

I'm not a regular watcher, but I do follow and watch some games and I see a lot more guys that didn't quite pan out in MLS and elsewhere than youngsters we expect to crack CANMNT.  I'm not challenging anyone here, but honest question, do we really feel CPL has the people in place to develop the young talent and bring them to the next level?  CFM had some successful loans, but even the guys that came back were very raw even though they played regularly.

CPL is great, but there is a chasm of a gap between where we need the coaches/trainers to be and the actual level they're at.  It'll take more than time to fix that.  So I guess what I'm asking is.... is there a bigger master plan to develop these guys besides having them play with/against guys that didn't quite cut it in MLS?

[Aird25]

6 minutes ago, costarg said:

Ok, so 5 years in, how many 17-19 year olds are currently playing regularly and being developed to reach a higher level? 

30 so far this season 

[CanadaFan123]

No one is saying a player is going to be called from CPL (at present) but there’s no question players will come from the league. Not sure where the disagreement is coming. Marsch understands this as well as we do. 

[BearcatSA]

10 hours ago, Aird25 said:

It's not at all. Lajeunesse, Mukumbilwa, Ndom, and Amedume are all currently better options at LB (2 of them are only 21) and we have a plethora of players that are better options at DM. That's not meant as a knock on Greco-Taylor, but there are certainly players on Pacific, and elsewhere within CPL, thart are closer to the senior national team level than the u20 players.

And still, other than our injured Frenchman, the best player on the squad is a 20 year old Colombian

Is Pacific "bad" because they are not scoring?

[Aird25]

10 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Is Pacific "bad" because they are not scoring?

Sure, not scoring plays a role, but losing constantly is a much bigger sign. We've just lost 4 of 5

[Aird25]

4 hours ago, Onelessstar said:

not many island boys on that squad... let alone 16-17 year olds

There are 8 island boys on the squad. That's more professionals than the island has produced in a very long time. Probably in my life time. At least 3 of them are 17 or younger. They also have the academy

Edited July 20 by Aird25

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

30 so far this season 

I just did the work.  I went with 20 and under and found 7 - 8 players with over 250' this season across the league.  I feel its hard to credit anything under that as actual development time, is that fair?  I could be totally off, maybe CPL isn't where we want our U20's developing?   

To be honest, I don't know what I was expecting, yet it kinda confirms what I felt and saw, which is the league is predominantly made up of guys that didn't crack MLS or other leagues, and very few developing talents.  Maybe I should have included 21 & 22?

50 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

but there’s no question players will come from the league. Not sure where the disagreement is coming. Marsch understands this as well as we do. 

I don't think anyone is disagreeing, pretty sure this is what we all want and hope.  I think what some of us are saying is we're not sure it's gonna happen soon or as quickly as we'd like.  Or questioning the structure and model?

I'm a CFM, VWC & TFC fan, yet I'm honestly overjoyed when a CPL club beats them.  We see CPL is doing well in certain ways, perhaps it's impatience on my part, I want more development and faster, but I question the level of coaches and staff to help make this happen.

To be perfectly honest, I sometimes struggle with what CPL should be.  Ideally we want it to be the top level of Canadian soccer, but it's not realistic since the 3 MLS teams will/should dominate that area.  So does CPL become a feeder league, a development league or just the guys that couldn't make it elsewhere?

Edited July 20 by costarg

[Aird25]

32 minutes ago, costarg said:

I just did the work.  I went with 20 and under and found 7 - 8 players with over 250' this season across the league.  I feel its hard to credit anything under that as actual development time, is that fair?  I could be totally off, maybe CPL isn't where we want our U20's developing?   

To be honest, I don't know what I was expecting, yet it kinda confirms what I felt and saw, which is the league is predominantly made up of guys that didn't crack MLS or other leagues, and very few developing talents.  Maybe I should have included 21 & 22?

I don't think anyone is disagreeing, pretty sure this is what we all want and hope.  I think what some of us are saying is we're not sure it's gonna happen soon or as quickly as we'd like.  Or questioning the structure and model?

I'm a CFM, VWC & TFC fan, yet I'm honestly overjoyed when a CPL club beats them.  We see CPL is doing well in certain ways, perhaps it's impatience on my part, I want more development and faster, but I question the level of coaches and staff to help make this happen.

To be perfectly honest, I sometimes struggle with what CPL should be.  Ideally we want it to be the top level of Canadian soccer, but it's not realistic since the 3 MLS teams will/should dominate that area.  So does CPL become a feeder league, a development league or just the guys that couldn't make it elsewhere?

Would you benefit from a comparison? The amount of Canadian teenagers that have received 250 minutes or more by Canadian MLS clubs this season is 0. 

There are loads of developing talents in CPL. Very strange take on your part 

Edited July 20 by Aird25