Copa America: Canada vs Peru - Tuesday, June 25th - 6pm Eastern / 3pm Pacific - Kansas City, Kansas

[sstackho]

AJ Appreciation GIF

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

[El Diego]

20 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Agree with some, disagree with a lot of the whole post but this comes off as especially strange. 

First, 4 (not 5) games for Marsch - 25 for Rangrick.  

Your good players argument is a counter one to your point.  We have good players, especially compared to the teams we face most of the time.  If Rangrick is getting the best out of his and they are winning games against teams they should and shouldn't - your evaluation - we can probably let the process play out to see if we are doing the same even at say 10 games in.   

 

But Austria is not close to Netherlands in terms of player pool.  Kind of makes the whole point suspect.

(Going by where they normally play) 

Netherlands keepers better top to bottom

Netherlands has 4 better centrebacks before you get to Danso or Linehart

Neither are blessed with a plethoral of leftbacks but Maatsen is far better than anything Austria has and they play Ake there. 

Same at Rb but Geertruida beats Posch.

Sabitzer has played well and Laimer is good but I have seen a lot of Reijnders and Gravenberch, they are better, and Veerman and  Schouten are probably as good.

Gakpo and even Bergwijn are better than or equal to, respectively, Austria's left attacking side.

Austria has attacking midfielders in depth but Simmons is better than anyone there.

Frimpong and Dumfries and Malen blow away anything Austria has on the right.

Strikers -  Zirkzee, Brobbey, Depay even Weghorst in situations are easily better than  Gregoritsch (who played '45 when West Ham beat his team 5-0) and.....Arnautovic.  

And that with De Jong, Koopmeiners, Timber and even Noa Lang injured. 

 

Sorry not close at all and bad evidence makes for a suspect point. 

I was volunteering an argument that Marsch, as a disciple of Rangnick, should be afforded a long time to let his ideas play out as Austria are getting good results and performances after a long time of development under Rangnick. So yes, the point you end up making. I don't even end up advocating for getting rid of Marsch or anything, so I am fine with giving him more time and I give him kudos for some adaptability he has shown. I know I am not always the clearest writer but I thought the point I was making was clear enough, but maybe not -- things always make sense in your own head that might not make sense to others once you try to communicate it.

The only point I was trying to make is that I think Austria have better players than people realize and are closer to the Netherlands than people think, so these results aren't all due to The System. And besides, what makes some players better than others? Why is Verbruggen better than Pentz, the club he plays at? Why does Geertuida beat out Posch? How do you downplay Sabitzer and Laimer -- you honestly believe that Veerman and Schouten are "just as good"? That is more questionable than anything I said.

So honestly, I don't think we're that far apart from each other on the general point regarding Marsch and Rangnick. And I think if you're using that one line in my post (along with me absent mindedly typing "five" instead of "four") to impugn to rest of my analysis of the match itself then that would be unfair. 

[Hawkguy]

13 hours ago, VinceA said:

We've never really been a team that can play for a draw.

Well - I wasn't saying to play for the draw. I hope they play for the win. But a draw also likely gets us through.

[Sal333]

6 hours ago, narduch said:

We probably got their coach fired yesterday. 

They will wait until after Copa to do it. But they are already doing badly in WCQ as well.

This may partly explain some of his stupid comments 

And here I was being charitable. I attributed those stupid comments (before and after the match) to dementia.

[CanadaFan123]

7 hours ago, narduch said:

We probably got their coach fired yesterday. 

They will wait until after Copa to do it. But they are already doing badly in WCQ as well.

This may partly explain some of his stupid comments 

It was his first loss with Peru - he’s not being fired. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

17 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I was volunteering an argument that Marsch, as a disciple of Rangnick, should be afforded a long time to let his ideas play out as Austria are getting good results and performances after a long time of development under Rangnick. So yes, the point you end up making. I don't even end up advocating for getting rid of Marsch or anything, so I am fine with giving him more time and I give him kudos for some adaptability he has shown. I know I am not always the clearest writer but I thought the point I was making was clear enough, but maybe not -- things always make sense in your own head that might not make sense to others once you try to communicate it.

The only point I was trying to make is that I think Austria have better players than people realize and are closer to the Netherlands than people think, so these results aren't all due to The System. And besides, what makes some players better than others? Why is Verbruggen better than Pentz, the club he plays at? Why does Geertuida beat out Posch? How do you downplay Sabitzer and Laimer -- you honestly believe that Veerman and Schouten are "just as good"? That is more questionable than anything I said.

So honestly, I don't think we're that far apart from each other on the general point regarding Marsch and Rangnick. And I think if you're using that one line in my post (along with me absent mindedly typing "five" instead of "four") to impugn to rest of my analysis of the match itself then that would be unfair. 

A lot of it is seeing the players, a little or a lot. 

I have seen Verbruggen and am going to trust some very good scouting teams to say he better than a Danish league keeper.

Again I watched Feynoord a bit, they were in the same compeition as my club, and some Serie A - for the rightbacks.

I have seen Sabitzer and Laimer a fair bit, they have struggled at decent levels sometimes.  Schouten and Veerman have been intergral to some good side recently.  I would ask you what you kinda asked me - is my point so questionable because of the clubs they play at? Or because there are big names on one side. 

But even take those examples away, I would never agree that those 2 pools are "close."

 

Again, as I said I disagreed with some other line item things but there you go.  This one seemed very off given it used a point I profoundly disagreed with.  And if we are taking about giving people time, taking 20% of games played away, even accidentally, should probably be noted. 

 

 

[narduch]

20 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

It was his first loss with Peru - he’s not being fired. 

Woops. I thought he managed them in WCQ but was hired after the November window.

I still think if he crashes out of Copa with 3 losses it wouldn't be the most surprising move.

[GasPed]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

Woops. I thought he managed them in WCQ but was hired after the November window.

I still think if he crashes out of Copa with 3 losses it wouldn't be the most surprising move.

I think the worst he can do is 1 draw, 2 losses.  I suspect he wouldn't lose his job over that.

[A.D.I.D.A.S.]

Btw, anyone else notice the "Poutine better than Ceviche" sign in the crowd? Gotta love it 🤣

[JamboAl]

3 minutes ago, A.D.I.D.A.S. said:

Btw, anyone else notice the "Poutine better than Ceviche" sign in the crowd? Gotta love it 🤣

That was Gen and Erika from Ottawa.  Nice young ladies who know more than a thing or two about soccer.

[GasPed]

Now that the euphoria has died down a bit, I do have to ask why Peru were so much better than us for the first hour of the game.  Frankly, I don't think it was about tactics or talent so much as it was about energy levels and the ability to play in that heat.  Peru played like a pack of rabid raccoons on a garbage bag - they swarmed and harassed us, they pounced on every miscue, they won every duel and they were relentlessly physical - every challenge was riding the line for a foul call.  On the flip side, we were playing like it was 35C and 80% humidity.

I personally don't know if you can do a lot to train for that - to be honest, I think our response (gut it out, make smart subs, will yourselves over the finish line) was the best (and only) thing we could do.  And as far as takeaways, I really hope we can do the same against Chile, because Orlando is not going to be much cooler.  (Or maybe Chile won't be as hopped up on the Red Bull as Peru was?)

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, GasPed said:

Now that the euphoria has died down a bit, I do have to ask why Peru were so much better than us for the first hour of the game.  Frankly, I don't think it was about tactics or talent so much as it was about energy levels and the ability to play in that heat.  Peru played like a pack of rabid raccoons on a garbage bag - they swarmed and harassed us, they pounced on every miscue, they won every duel and they were relentlessly physical - every challenge was riding the line for a foul call.  On the flip side, we were playing like it was 35C and 80% humidity.

I personally don't know if you can do a lot to train for that - to be honest, I think our response (gut it out, make smart subs, will yourselves over the finish line) was the best (and only) thing we could do.  And as far as takeaways, I really hope we can do the same against Chile, because Orlando is not going to be much cooler.  (Or maybe Chile won't be as hopped up on the Red Bull as Peru was?)

I wonder that myself.

I think it comes down to experience in Copa America. It was the attitude they played with which made the difference. We looked uncomfortable, despite the win. They looked comfortable, despite the loss. Even our passing at times in the build out was very shaky, as if we were afraid to make a mistake. They were more certain of themselves than we were.

And it makes sense, these are new experiences for Canada. Peru know this tournament and breath it. I know we have world Cup experience, but that was nothing like what we saw last night.

It was a fight to the death we came out on top of, fortunately. It will battle-harden us a bit for Chile, which is going to be very tough. 

[jhoops__]

We definitely showed our lack of experience in those kinds of settings.   Massive learning experience last night and hopefully we’ll learn and play better v Chile.

Edited Wednesday at 07:27 PM by jhoops__

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

24 minutes ago, GasPed said:

Now that the euphoria has died down a bit, I do have to ask why Peru were so much better than us for the first hour of the game.  Frankly, I don't think it was about tactics or talent so much as it was about energy levels and the ability to play in that heat.  Peru played like a pack of rabid raccoons on a garbage bag - they swarmed and harassed us, they pounced on every miscue, they won every duel and they were relentlessly physical - every challenge was riding the line for a foul call.  On the flip side, we were playing like it was 35C and 80% humidity.

I personally don't know if you can do a lot to train for that - to be honest, I think our response (gut it out, make smart subs, will yourselves over the finish line) was the best (and only) thing we could do.  And as far as takeaways, I really hope we can do the same against Chile, because Orlando is not going to be much cooler.  (Or maybe Chile won't be as hopped up on the Red Bull as Peru was?)

They dealt with the heat better, played hard and physical - credit to them- but sometimes too hard and it eventually cost them.

We can "if" and "but" this all we want but (yes I see the irony) they don't play as physical we don't look as bad and yet if they don't play as physical they don't get the red, which allowed some of our quality to show, giving us the result.

 

I will say we have started better lately.  There are a fair few big (and other) games in the past where we have gone behind (or come a lot closer than we did yesterday) early.  At least in my recollection.

[frattinator]

13 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I will say we have started better lately.  There are a fair few big (and other) games in the past where we have gone behind (or come a lot closer than we did yesterday) early.  At least in my recollection.

Definitely agree. Even in some of our WCQ wins (home win against Panama comes to mind) we started real sluggish 

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, El Diego said:

I was volunteering an argument that Marsch, as a disciple of Rangnick, should be afforded a long time to let his ideas play out as Austria are getting good results and performances after a long time of development under Rangnick. So yes, the point you end up making. I don't even end up advocating for getting rid of Marsch or anything, so I am fine with giving him more time and I give him kudos for some adaptability he has shown. I know I am not always the clearest writer but I thought the point I was making was clear enough, but maybe not -- things always make sense in your own head that might not make sense to others once you try to communicate it.

The only point I was trying to make is that I think Austria have better players than people realize and are closer to the Netherlands than people think, so these results aren't all due to The System. And besides, what makes some players better than others? Why is Verbruggen better than Pentz, the club he plays at? Why does Geertuida beat out Posch? How do you downplay Sabitzer and Laimer -- you honestly believe that Veerman and Schouten are "just as good"? That is more questionable than anything I said.

So honestly, I don't think we're that far apart from each other on the general point regarding Marsch and Rangnick. And I think if you're using that one line in my post (along with me absent mindedly typing "five" instead of "four") to impugn to rest of my analysis of the match itself then that would be unfair. 

Verbruggen is 21 and starting in the EPL. He was phenomenal for andrelecht. He’s raw but much better. 
 

Geertruida beats out dumfries and frimpong at right back. Arguably 2 of the best rwbs in the world. Yes they are differently stylistically and they are rwb but for geertruida to be anywhere in the conversation with those guys speaks to his quality. Many top clubs have scouted him. 
 

Laimer and sabitzer are quality but Reijnders and shouten are comparable.  We are without de Jong, Koop, and de roon.  So essentially comparing austrias best players vs our weakest. 
 

if you do hollands best position-cb then you have.

van dijk, ake, de ligt, van de ven, de vrij, timber, geertruida, blind, botman and hato who easily walk into austrias starting line up.  
 

I can give you a list of 10 more guys like schurrs, st juste etc who all arguably start for Austria as well.  
 

There’s no comparison in the squads. Austria doesn’t have a single player who starts for holland when everyone is fit. Sabitzer could start the euros since there’s a midfield injury crisis for the euros. 

[Joe MacCarthy]

[Unnamed Trialist]

20 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

How do you say dumpster fire in Español?

All the hard ones after this game.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, A.D.I.D.A.S. said:

Btw, anyone else notice the "Poutine better than Ceviche" sign in the crowd? Gotta love it 🤣

Right beside the "SORRY" sign.

[Ruud]

19 hours ago, spinrack said:

Also, I observe that Chile fans have a dedicated supporters section behind the net at field level in this game against Argentina, and I am having difficulty understanding how Canada could not manage the same.

Opening game must have had different rules 

[Ruud]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Verbruggen is 21 and starting in the EPL. He was phenomenal for andrelecht. He’s raw but much better. 
 

Geertruida beats out dumfries and frimpong at right back. Arguably 2 of the best rwbs in the world. Yes they are differently stylistically and they are rwb but for geertruida to be anywhere in the conversation with those guys speaks to his quality. Many top clubs have scouted him. 
 

Laimer and sabitzer are quality but Reijnders and shouten are comparable.  We are without de Jong, Koop, and de roon.  So essentially comparing austrias best players vs our weakest. 
 

if you do hollands best position-cb then you have.

van dijk, ake, de ligt, van de ven, de vrij, timber, geertruida, blind, botman and hato who easily walk into austrias starting line up.  
 

I can give you a list of 10 more guys like schurrs, st juste etc who all arguably start for Austria as well.  
 

There’s no comparison in the squads. Austria doesn’t have a single player who starts for holland when everyone is fit. Sabitzer could start the euros since there’s a midfield injury crisis for the euros. 

Shocked we didn’t see frimpong against Austria to be fair 

[ensco]

I find the general tone of commentary kind of unreal. Do we really not know how to take the win? This is bizarre.

How many games have Canada actually won against decent non-Concacaf opponents? Is it two… in the last 75 years?

We are showing no appreciation for gutting out results, when not at your best, which teams like US and Mexico do all the time… but when we do it, it's not good enough.

We beat a team in just super unreal weather conditions, conditions the other team has far more experience with, with 95% of the crowd against us, in a game that mattered far more to them than to us… and 88% of the posts here are like: bummer man, it really doesn’t count, because we didn’t “look” like Brazil, and the other guys lost their cool but we didn't … 

As someone who was there, I can tell you that every single one of the 200-300 Canadians there was delirious with joy at a famous victory. It would seriously bother me if I were one of the players and this is what I saw. This is what support looks like for something this meaningful?

Smell the flowers people. They are beautiful!

Edited Wednesday at 11:36 PM by ensco

[Gian-Luca]

Anyone notice the blatant foul on Shaffelburg on the goal a few seconds after he passed the ball? You can see it on the replay from behind the goal. 
 

Boy, those Peruvian players really don’t like white guys with blonde hair! Not sure how Liam Millar escaped getting attacked, maybe they noticed his hair was dyed blonde, so it doesn’t quite count. 😉

Edited Wednesday at 11:43 PM by Gian-Luca

[Bison44]

2 minutes ago, ensco said:

I find the general tone of commentary kind of unreal. Do we really not know how to take the win? This is bizarre.

Oh its just the usual V's sense of doom etc.  Years of being beat down do that to you.  Its hard to be positive or happy when you are conditioned to expect a heartache immediately after.  But I get it.  What bothers me is the talk of oh well, it was only after the red card that thngs changed.  Umm well after all that talk pregame it was us who kept our composure and them who prob should have had 2 red cards.  We frustrated them enough, they were desperate enough to get points (knowing they were never getting points off ARG) that they acted stupidly.  Our guys stayed calm, let them make mistakes and then made them pay with a sublime goal from a guy who was getting trashed for never scoring against big opponents all week.  Not perfect, but pretty damn good.