Copa America Other Matches + Group A

[canadasoccer20]

4 hours ago, jonovision said:

I really don't understand Pulisic in that situation. A handshake is usually meant to be, at minimum, a sign of respect. Why go in for one when your comments and demeanor suggest the exact opposite?

I think it was more poor by the referee then Pulisic. Obviously, Pulisic was jabbing the ref by telling him to go celebrate the win with Uruguay but at the end of the day, he still was willing to shake the refs hand even though clearly he was not a fan of him. The referee and players need to erase their differences and shake hands and clearly the ref was still sulking.

One of the best parts of the NHL playoffs is the handshake at the end of the series. These teams go to war against each other for up to 7 games and still will show respect win or lose and shake hands after. The referee in this situation embarrassed himself imo. 

[mpg_29]

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[TGAA_Star]

Just now, mpg_29 said:

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Americans really hate us 😒 wow

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

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Yeah, not sure why I have such a strong dislike for the USA and celebrate their failures…

Edited Tuesday at 09:23 PM by dyslexic nam

[InglewoodJack]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Again not getting your Premier League stuff.  3 points is 3 points no matter the team.  Over a full season, you taking care of your own business is what matters. 

The rival games are the best emotionally but that is seperate, often superior, joy and pain.   

I adjusted a couple sentence in the second paragraph.  Personal feelings aren't valid arguments if I don't share them, at least to the degree you do. 

I respect your feelings but your analogy doesn't work because I don't feel the same about the States as you do.  So trying to make feel like it does against a club rival is not ever going to work logically or emotionally. 

Point with premier league stuff is just that like with us, when our rivals lose, someone else wins, we play all these teams anyways, so it evens out. There have probably been situations where a Spurs win against someone else helps West Ham in the standings or whatnot, I’m not sure that their fans would be keen on cheering them on. My Montreal Canadiens had a Florida draft pick last season that would have ended up better if the Leafs beat them in the playoffs, but most of us weren’t cheering for a leafs series win, despite the marginal benefit that would’ve given us. 
 

I guess it depends on how you feel about these teams. I think the US is our top rival in the sport, and I think that (hopefully) we’re entering an era where success in concacaf flows through one of the two giants of the conference- them or us. I guess as the culture of the sport grows in our country, we should take our rivals more seriously, all of that traditional sports banter and all. I do agree with your earlier point re: we shouldn’t pride ourselves on being anti American (larger conversation about Canadian identity and who we are as a nation, probably too big for this thread, but I agree with the general idea), but as a team that’s been largely disappointing over the last two years, we’ve just accomplished something our rivals couldn’t, when the tournament was even in their backyard. I think that’s worth noting. 

Edited Tuesday at 07:38 PM by InglewoodJack

[kacbru]

4 hours ago, frmr said:

This is where I disagree. My love for Canada Soccer is vastly greater than my hate for other programs. I actually don't hate other programs at all and get no joy from seeing any countries lose. Even if I did though, I ultimately always want the most success for Canada versus reveling in the failures of others. I get that many people do get joy from that though.

Atiba was onside! 

[gwsmith63]

34 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

?

 

Surely that pic has been ‘shopped!!!!

Yeeesh!

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

16 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Point with premier league stuff is just that like with us, when our rivals lose, someone else wins, we play all these teams anyways, so it evens out.

Generally appreciate you points bar this which I still don't get.

We don't play all these teams.

The States were playing Uruguay, we have played them twice - full stop - neither of which were worth that much in FIFA's formula. As opposed to the States who we play more than an average of once a year the modern set up - often in important game,  The higher and generally better the States are the more it tests us and helps our rating.  

And we have never played Bolivia to my knowledge.

This is not a league and again in a league you taking care of your own business is what actually determines your position.  If you are relying on someone else to win or lose something, in the end you did something wrong. 

[InglewoodJack]

16 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Generally appreciate you points bar this which I still don't get.

We don't play all these teams.

The States were playing Uruguay, we have played them twice - full stop - neither of which were worth that much in FIFA's formula. As opposed to the States who we play more than an average of once a year the modern set up - often in important game,  The higher and generally better the States are the more it tests us and helps our rating.  

And we have never played Bolivia to my knowledge.

This is not a league and again in a league you taking care of your own business is what actually determines your position.  If you are relying on someone else to win or lose something, in the end you did something wrong. 

At least in terms of ELO score, and I assume FIFA live ranking is similar, the US lost by far the most points from that Panama game (35). Those points went to Panama who we need to play to get to the US in a lot of tournaments anyways, so one of our most common opponents lost points to another common opponent, so it’s a wash. Beating Uruguay would have increased their rank by one single position, so it’s a wash. In the section you bolded, I was specifically referring to the Panama game, since it’s the most impactful, by far, for the US’ score. We’ll play them before long too.

 

 

[Canuckia]

1 hour ago, mpg_29 said:

?

 

They have always said that we're shit. They used to say it with a condescending tone and a giggle. Now they're screaming it. Good times!

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

At least in terms of ELO score, and I assume FIFA live ranking is similar, the US lost by far the most points from that Panama game (35). Those points went to Panama who we need to play to get to the US in a lot of tournaments anyways, so one of our most common opponents lost points to another common opponent, so it’s a wash. Beating Uruguay would have increased their rank by one single position, so it’s a wash. In the section you bolded, I was specifically referring to the Panama game, since it’s the most impactful, by far, for the US’ score. We’ll play them before long too.

 

 

It's not that much more important, sorry.

They lose 17 on the Uruguay game and 24 on the Panama.  

Remember you are trying to compare this to a league, which again doesn't make any sense, where you play all the teams equally and all game are equally weighted.  It is part of why I said the comparison made no sense. 

[RJB]

1 hour ago, canadasoccer20 said:

One of the best parts of the NHL playoffs is the handshake at the end of the series. These teams go to war against each other for up to 7 games and still will show respect win or lose and shake hands after.

Hockey people brag about this tradition, but they fail to acknowledge that hockey players can't be bothered to show this same respect after each of 82 games in the regular season, and the preceding six games in the playoffs. 

[InglewoodJack]

6 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

It's not that much more important, sorry.

They lose 17 on the Uruguay game and 24 on the Panama.  

Remember you are trying to compare this to a league, which again doesn't make any sense, where you play all the teams equally and all game are equally weighted.  It is part of why I said the comparison made no sense. 

Then it’s different than the ELO scores- Panama was a 35 point swing, Uruguay was 14. 
 

My comment about the league was mostly because you had said that the US winning benefits us which can also be true of one of your club’s rivals winning a game that favours you, but rivals are rivals, and I think it’s fine to prioritize the rivalry over the benefits of them winning to help you out. Wasn’t any deeper than that

To flesh out that point though, say West Ham is a point or two out of Europe, with some random team just ahead of you. They play Spurs- it helps you if Spurs wins, denies the other team points and gives your club a game in hand to gain on them. Some fans may cheer for their rival in that specific scenario, some may say that it doesn’t matter, you pray on their downfall and you qualify for Europe by winning your own games and letting the chips fall where they may. 
 

But anyways, that’s so far from the original point which is basically: I don’t care about the benefits we get from a rival team winning, because it’s nice to see them lose, and sports fandom is meant to be irrational and emotional. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

19 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Then it’s different than the ELO scores- Panama was a 35 point swing, Uruguay was 14. 
 

My comment about the league was mostly because you had said that the US winning benefits us which can also be true of one of your club’s rivals winning a game that favours you, but rivals are rivals, and I think it’s fine to prioritize the rivalry over the benefits of them winning to help you out. Wasn’t any deeper than that

To flesh out that point though, say West Ham is a point or two out of Europe, with some random team just ahead of you. They play Spurs- it helps you if Spurs wins, denies the other team points and gives your club a game in hand to gain on them. Some fans may cheer for their rival in that specific scenario, some may say that it doesn’t matter, you pray on their downfall and you qualify for Europe by winning your own games and letting the chips fall where they may.  

ELO actually means nothing.  Right?

 

You have eluded to these annecdoctal scenarios before. There could be one the other way: the States have to beat someone so we can qualify for 2030 - I hope it doesn't go that way but it could. Are we cheering against the States still?

It's just another hypothetical but the realness is that there are lot more regular benefits to us for the States doing well than Spurs doing well for West Ham.

19 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

But anyways, that’s so far from the original point which is basically: I don’t care about the benefits we get from a rival team winning, because it’s nice to see them lose, and sports fandom is meant to be irrational and emotional. 

That again is your opinion which I can disagree with but really don't have a problem with.   Your point which I had a problem with was the attempted comparison - it made no sense because the systems that contain the teams are so different. 

That said, in my hypothetical, I think you would care about the benefits of a rival team winning.

Edited Tuesday at 09:18 PM by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[InglewoodJack]

8 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

ELO actually means nothing.  Right?

 

You have eluded to these annecdoctal scenarios before. There could be one the other way: the States have to beat someone so we can qualify for 2030 - I hope it doesn't go that way but it could. Are we cheering against the States still?

It's just another hypothetical but the realness is that there are lot more regular benefits to us for the States doing well than Spurs doing well for West Ham.

That again is your opinion which I can disagree with but really don't have a problem with.   Your point which I had a problem with was the attempted comparison - it made no sense because the systems that contain the teams are so different. 

That said, in my hypothetical, I think you would care about the benefits of a rival team winning.

ELO does mean nothing- I just assumed their score is calculated more or less similar to the FIFA live rankings which you’ve been citing.  The only rankings that matter are the actual FIFA rankings, but since we’ve only got a single game against the US planned until next spring or summer at the earliest, and that game is a friendly, it doesn’t matter much to us.

 

If the US had to beat someone to help us qualify, I would be more inclined to not cheer against them, that is true. Don’t think I would actively cheer for them though, I’d probably be more sour about what we did to get us into that situation.

Again, my comment comparing this to a league is just that rivalries, seeing these teams you’ve gone up against countless times over the years lose while you are winning, all of that is more interesting to me as a sports fan than what can happen because of what some other team does in another game and how that affects you. Was not meant to be any deeper than that. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

 I’d probably be more sour about what we did to get us into that situation.

Mulitiply that scenario by 2 or 3 times as many games to make it right and that was what I was saying about doing your own business in a league.   

[mpg_29]

Nobody gets seeded with ELO...

[narduch]

56 minutes ago, RJB said:

Hockey people brag about this tradition, but they fail to acknowledge that hockey players can't be bothered to show this same respect after each of 82 games in the regular season, and the preceding six games in the playoffs. 

Hockey players also often perform gutless and cowardly acts. So who cares if they shake hands 

[jonovision]

1 hour ago, RJB said:

Hockey people brag about this tradition, but they fail to acknowledge that hockey players can't be bothered to show this same respect after each of 82 games in the regular season, and the preceding six games in the playoffs. 

Or during the games themselves, where many players show little respect or concern for the safety and health of their opponents.

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

20 hours ago, Cheeta said:

Panama up by 2.

@xabuep2 , my favourite Panama Copa America meme so far:

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:54 PM by Olympique_de_Marseille

[gigi riva]

20 hours ago, rick10 said:

You complaining about the referee when the refs have favour canada on their last game. I highly doubt canada wouldve qualify is they didnt play against 10 the last two games.

it still amazes me how bombito never got a red card. People here would be jumping and bitching if this happened to canada..

seriously canada should be the last one complaining about the refs…

 

 

 

What ever you say there Pierre Pollivere

[gigi riva]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

Or during the games themselves, where many players show little respect or concern for the safety and health of their opponents.

Especialy after these recent NHL playoffs

[red card]

 

[jonovision]

Unless I'm wrong about the tiebreaking rules, not much on the line tonight in Group D. Costa Rica needs to win big and Brazil lose big in order for Costa Rica to advance.

[gigi riva]

5 hours ago, TGAA_Star said:

Americans really hate us 😒 wow

Cannot wait when we beat them on a regular basis