France vs Canada - Sunday June 9 - 9:15pm local 3:15 EST; 12:15 Pacific - Bordeaux

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

Omg you’re right lol…Shaff 4/11 passes 👍 

Ah. My bad on the 4%.  I thought on fotmob he was 1/14 passes but he was 1/7 which is 14%.   Not sure where you got the 4/11 and what is or isn’t accurate but either way, shaf was shocking with his passing. 

[costarg]

 

 

11 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

The build up play is interesting. 
 

against the big guys we needed to slow down the game a bit and keep possession to shift the momentum.  This meant some backwards passing triangles until we could switch the ball out of possession.  We then were able to shift our whole team forward into the middle and attacking third with our cbs in possession.  We need to do this but then we also struggle to break down the opposition who has dropped into shape.  
 

we rarely are able to win possession and counter against top teams as their press makes it so hard for us to retain and counter.  
 

Buildup play:

counters- I feel we are going to counter from winning the ball up higher on the pitch (which doesn’t really suit our speed). Compared to how we counter the entire field vs minnows.

 

slower build up- kone and draw receive the ball between the forward and mid line of the opposition. They then play out wide or to David who lays it off out wide. We progress down the field and then sort of pass in a horseshoe around the box and hope for an opening.  Not sure how we solve this as Laron’s too static to break down a low block and we don’t have a lock picker who can basically force us to be creative.  We rely on beating a man 1v1 to create overloads atm.

 

@WestHamCanadianinOxford I really like how you see the game. Any thoughts on the build up play? 

I'm curious to see this too.  Based on what we've seen and heard from Marsch, it seems creativity is thrown on the window, every attack seems planned towards a specific player and formation.  Very little slow build up and possession involved.  Just pure direct attacks once the ball is recovered.

 

[jhoops__]

17 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Ah. My bad on the 4%.  I thought on fotmob he was 1/14 passes but he was 1/7 which is 14%.   Not sure where you got the 4/11 and what is or isn’t accurate but either way, shaf was shocking with his passing. 

Both games combined 4/11

[InglewoodJack]

For those who care about it, per ELO ranking, we lost 5 points versus the Netherlands and picked up 9 against France- fell one spot and climbed another, so we remain 39th overall, just below Slovenia and right above Chile. 

[BearcatSA]

59 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Not sure how we solve this as Laron’s too static to break down a low block and we don’t have a lock picker who can basically force us to be creative. 

Too static and not good enough at keeping possession under pressure at the moment.

[gator]

6 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Too static and not good enough at keeping possession under pressure at the moment.

Yes, I think lack of minutes in the league showed, most players were disappointing vs the Dutch, I didn't think he was very good in either game but have not written him off but we may have to look at other options and I am a little surprised JM didn't do that for any length of time!

[Mihairokov]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

For those who care about it, per ELO ranking, we lost 5 points versus the Netherlands and picked up 9 against France- fell one spot and climbed another, so we remain 39th overall, just below Slovenia and right above Chile. 

That Chile match is really going to move our ELO one way or another. 😄

[InglewoodJack]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

counters- I feel we are going to counter from winning the ball up box and hope for an opening.  Not sure how we solve this as Laron’s too static to break down a low block and we don’t have a lock picker who can basically force us to be creative.  We rely on beating a man 1v1 to create overloads atm.

 

 

Thoughts on Theo Bair as the Larin replacement for these reasons? Striker who can take the ball farther away from goal, can fight through mud and take awkward angle shots. David and Larin are very similar players and Ugbo as well, but Bair has a very complimentary skill set to JD. Bair vs. Larin, I feel like their respective heat maps this year are pretty revealing when you consider our issues with involving our strikers:

Larin basically runs towards the net the second we’re in possession and parks himself close to the penalty box so he can grab a nice chance off a good service. Problem is we’re never going to get the ball to Larin in a spot where he’s comfortable, not against this calibre of team. Bair gets more involved in the build up and creates more for himself. The only reason David has been “good” for Canada is he can effectively play midfield in defence, so we’re only one, not two men down. But if you can have Bair take some of David’s defensive/build up responsibilities and give JD a better opportunity to start his runs closer to the box, you might be making the most use out of your strikers on a team that struggles to get them involved. Basically, Bair should play like David, David should play like Larin. 
 

Having a striker play farther from net too also makes things easier for a guy like Kone- instead of having to make these tricky athletic movements to open up a lane to make a great pass through traffic, he can connect with Bair farther from net and draw defenders in a lot quicker in the build up to get David some open space elsewhere. Thought it was interesting that Bair and Kone basically have inverted heat maps- one seems to occupy the space the other does not:

 

We’ll still need to beat guys 1v1, but a Bair x David partnership at least gives us two strikers who can get involved for the full 90.

Edited June 10 by InglewoodJack

[Ruud]

29 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Thoughts on Theo Bair as the Larin replacement for these reasons? Striker who can take the ball farther away from goal, can fight through mud and take awkward angle shots. David and Larin are very similar players and Ugbo as well, but Bair has a very complimentary skill set to JD. Bair vs. Larin, I feel like their respective heat maps this year are pretty revealing when you consider our issues with involving our strikers:

Larin basically runs towards the net the second we’re in possession and parks himself close to the penalty box so he can grab a nice chance off a good service. Problem is we’re never going to get the ball to Larin in a spot where he’s comfortable, not against this calibre of team. Bair gets more involved in the build up and creates more for himself. The only reason David has been “good” for Canada is he can effectively play midfield in defence, so we’re only one, not two men down. But if you can have Bair take some of David’s defensive/build up responsibilities and give JD a better opportunity to start his runs closer to the box, you might be making the most use out of your strikers on a team that struggles to get them involved. Basically, Bair should play like David, David should play like Larin. 
 

Having a striker play farther from net too also makes things easier for a guy like Kone- instead of having to make these tricky athletic movements to open up a lane to make a great pass through traffic, he can connect with Bair farther from net and draw defenders in a lot quicker in the build up to get David some open space elsewhere. Thought it was interesting that Bair and Kone basically have inverted heat maps- one seems to occupy the space the other does not:

 

We’ll still need to beat guys 1v1, but a Bair x David partnership at least gives us two strikers who can get involved for the full 90.

Yeah I wish he had been given a run for the last 15.  But I see why Oso was chosen as first sub and Tawi as second 

[Ruud]

I’m left with 4 questions  after these matches 

1 we don’t look dangerous on set pieces, so unless it’s a penalty why should Laryea bother diving ?  😂  and who is our target for corners exactly ?

2 we don’t seem to be able to strike outside the box ?  Or make good last minute decisions even though we are told David and Larin are a good strike force ?  As per above I wish we saw Bair 

3  can Osorio keep up as a sub in Copa enough to allow himself to use his skill and guile to good effect   I see the critics but he needs time to get upto speed and what he lacks in speed he makes up for in other ways  - including strikes outside the box and late runs on crosses 

4 Would be good to know which of Piette or choiniere comes on first as a sub in defensive mid 

 

 

Edited June 10 by Ruud

[frmr]

10 minutes ago, Ruud said:

I’m left with 4 questions  after these matches 

1 we don’t look dangerous on set pieces, so unless it’s a penalty why should Laryea bother diving ?  😂  and who is our target for corners exactly ?

2 we don’t seem to be able to strike outside the box ?  Or make good last minute decisions even though we are told David and Larin are a good strike force ?  As per above I wish we saw Bair 

3  can Osorio keep up as a sub in Copa enough to allow himself to use his skill and guile to good effect   I see the critics but he needs time to get upto speed and what he lacks in speed he makes up for in other ways  - including strikes outside the box and late runs on crosses 

4 Would be good to know which of Piette or choiniere comes on first as a sub in defensive mid 

 

 

Millar hit the bar from outside the box...

[Soro17]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Thoughts on Theo Bair as the Larin replacement for these reasons? Striker who can take the ball farther away from goal, can fight through mud and take awkward angle shots. David and Larin are very similar players and Ugbo as well, but Bair has a very complimentary skill set to JD. Bair vs. Larin, I feel like their respective heat maps this year are pretty revealing when you consider our issues with involving our strikers:

Larin basically runs towards the net the second we’re in possession and parks himself close to the penalty box so he can grab a nice chance off a good service. Problem is we’re never going to get the ball to Larin in a spot where he’s comfortable, not against this calibre of team. Bair gets more involved in the build up and creates more for himself. The only reason David has been “good” for Canada is he can effectively play midfield in defence, so we’re only one, not two men down. But if you can have Bair take some of David’s defensive/build up responsibilities and give JD a better opportunity to start his runs closer to the box, you might be making the most use out of your strikers on a team that struggles to get them involved. Basically, Bair should play like David, David should play like Larin. 
 

Having a striker play farther from net too also makes things easier for a guy like Kone- instead of having to make these tricky athletic movements to open up a lane to make a great pass through traffic, he can connect with Bair farther from net and draw defenders in a lot quicker in the build up to get David some open space elsewhere. Thought it was interesting that Bair and Kone basically have inverted heat maps- one seems to occupy the space the other does not:

 

We’ll still need to beat guys 1v1, but a Bair x David partnership at least gives us two strikers who can get involved for the full 90.

My main issue with Bair is that he plays in Scotland, which, outside of Celtic, is basically a 'run around and look busy', shit version of MLS. I'm not sure his heat map will translate well outside of Scotland. Given our paucity of strikers, I would begrudgingly give him a look in the fall, post Copa, to see what he brings to the table.  

[InglewoodJack]

Just now, Soro17 said:

My main issue with Bair is that he plays in Scotland, which, outside of Celtic, is basically a 'run around and look busy', shit version of MLS. I'm not sure his heat map will translate well outside of Scotland. Given our paucity of strikers, I would begrudgingly give him a look in the fall, post Copa, to see what he brings to the table.  

Yeah, big caveat on him doing this in Scotland, Larin having a particularly bad year, so on, so it is what it is. I think his skill set does give us something we don’t currently have which makes me want to at least test this out. 

[Floortom]

Tani has a better profile than Bair does for a JD partnership IMO

[costarg]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Thoughts on Theo Bair as the Larin replacement for these reasons? Striker who can take the ball farther away from goal, can fight through mud and take awkward angle shots. David and Larin are very similar players and Ugbo as well, but Bair has a very complimentary skill set to JD. Bair vs. Larin, I feel like their respective heat maps this year are pretty revealing when you consider our issues with involving our strikers:

Larin basically runs towards the net the second we’re in possession and parks himself close to the penalty box so he can grab a nice chance off a good service. Problem is we’re never going to get the ball to Larin in a spot where he’s comfortable, not against this calibre of team. Bair gets more involved in the build up and creates more for himself. The only reason David has been “good” for Canada is he can effectively play midfield in defence, so we’re only one, not two men down. But if you can have Bair take some of David’s defensive/build up responsibilities and give JD a better opportunity to start his runs closer to the box, you might be making the most use out of your strikers on a team that struggles to get them involved. Basically, Bair should play like David, David should play like Larin. 
 

Having a striker play farther from net too also makes things easier for a guy like Kone- instead of having to make these tricky athletic movements to open up a lane to make a great pass through traffic, he can connect with Bair farther from net and draw defenders in a lot quicker in the build up to get David some open space elsewhere. Thought it was interesting that Bair and Kone basically have inverted heat maps- one seems to occupy the space the other does not:

 

We’ll still need to beat guys 1v1, but a Bair x David partnership at least gives us two strikers who can get involved for the full 90.

Great post man, really.  As well as the research and heat map.

Like you say, having the David/Larin combo doesn't help the 11, other guys are stuck compensating.  David covers extra ground and other guys (Tajon, Kone....) don't go into the space Larin is occupying.  He's a great scorer, but we don't have the luxury to play two guys with too similar a profile, especially if one if obliged to do most of the heavy lifting.  The wings, Kone and Stache could get into those scoring positions.

[frmr]

Bair needs to produce at a higher level before he's anywhere near even having a discussion for a starting spot with Canada. Larin has proved himself in MLS, Turkey, Belgium, La Liga and the National Team. Bair has produced in one season in Scotland. Not even a discussion right now. I still bet Jebbison will be Larin's heir.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Ruud said:

1 we don’t look dangerous on set pieces, so unless it’s a penalty why should Laryea bother diving ?  😂  and who is our target for corners exactly ?

Cornelius, Bombito and Larin were the target men for corners and free kicks.

1 hour ago, Ruud said:

2 we don’t seem to be able to strike outside the box ?  Or make good last minute decisions even though we are told David and Larin are a good strike force ?  As per above I wish we saw Bair 

Kone is capable of this, done it a few times. Choiniere has a good shot from distance as well, he's nailed a few.  Millar had a nice one.

1 hour ago, Ruud said:

we are told David and Larin are a good strike force ?  As per above I wish we saw Bair 

Who ever told you David and Larin make a good strike force lied.  They both can score, but they don't make a good combination the way a two striker partnership should.

[Kadenge]

Club form is very important for strikers. It's all about confidence, more so than any other position. If this was last season, Larin would have buried that chance vs Netherlands. I hear what some are saying about  league level, but if a striker has been hot for their club they come in with that confidence and their timing/runs/touches are  sharp. Levi Garcia plays in Greece and he looked like the best striker on the field when we played T&T. Marsch gave Larin lots of mins in the 2 games hoping he can get sharp in a Canada shirt but time is running out.....now just watch him score one vs Argentina lol.

[InglewoodJack]

 

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Great post man, really.  As well as the research and heat map.

Like you say, having the David/Larin combo doesn't help the 11, other guys are stuck compensating.  David covers extra ground and other guys (Tajon, Kone....) don't go into the space Larin is occupying.  He's a great scorer, but we don't have the luxury to play two guys with too similar a profile, especially if one if obliged to do most of the heavy lifting.  The wings, Kone and Stache could get into those scoring positions.

I just think we need one striker who can operate through traffic and help more in the build up play. David is our best striker, he should and will start every game for us for the foreseeable future, but he can't create for himself all that well, so I want our other striker to be less of a poacher and more of a guy who can muck it up in the midfield and make daring runs. Larin isn't that guy. If we're talking purely about profile and not about form or current level, I think Jules Anthony Vilsaint plays this game very well with Montreal and would be a fantastic partner for David if he takes a (massive) leap. I think Bair currently has the best profile for this on our team, though I am willing to consider Tani as well, I just haven't seen much of him outside of highlight reels and USL games to determine. JRR could do some of this too.

Think this solves a lot of our other issues too. Right now, our offensive chances start with Eustaquio or more often Kone starting with the ball midway between the penalty area and the middle of the pitch, he does his thing, then swings it out wide or tries and finds David in a small pocket of space, or he hands it off to Davies who will dribble towards the middle and try and create out of nothing, usually dribbles into traffic and the play dies there. Larin isn't strong enough on crosses to make him a viable option for crosses from Millar/Tajon/Davies, so we need a striker who can tuck in and take the ball from inside Kone's area. This would draw a defender, giving David more space to operate, Davies a bigger avenue to speed through a pocket, or it gives Liam Millar a bit of extra space on the wing so he only has to beat one, not 3 different guys before taking a shot.

Ultimately you want the best players to play and I don't know if a guy playing at Motherwell with any sort of profile is our saviour. But if we're committed to playing with two strikers, our second striker should be selected with the intention of freeing our first striker as well as possible. Larin doesn't do this.

Edited June 10 by InglewoodJack

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, El Diego said:

I haven't read any posts or watched any post game content, so I may be rehashing things people have already said.

Definitely an encouraging performance. Ismael Kone had a great match, it's these types of performances that make people think he's got the x-factor that can lead him to a next level that few other Canadians can reach. His ability and willingness to turn when receiving the ball in the middle/from deep and drive through the middle, bypassing entire blocks, is so dangerous. It's easy to say about a young player "he just needs to be consistent", but that's the feeling I get from Kone. Some matches at Watford he looks like a passenger, other times like a world beater. This is great match to have on his resume -- he bullied Camavinga at times for Christ's sake!

It must be a joy to work with Jonathan David, either as teammate or manager. Made a bad read on a press and are out of position? David read that before you made your run and is now left wing for you. Getting pressured with the ball deep and nowhere to pass? David has made a checking run to receive ball into feet. Making a screaming run on the counter? David will lay it off for you.

I think the team is already showing more understanding and were more disciplined. However, I still have big questions about The System. My biggest issue is that when the opposition are building up, we have our strong side winger press the their centre back, then David drops off. We really protect the centre back to centre mid threat. This is great in theory, but in practice we really isolate our full backs and centre mids while the weak side winger is caught in this weird no man's land, and when the ball gets switched he is inevitably arriving late to the press. It also leaves this huge, exploitable gap on the wing that a full back or wing back can easily exploit. If Theo Hernandez stayed on I fear we would have been cooked. I also have a big question about how we build up, there doesn't seem to be any plan. I'm willing to give this one a few more games. Finally, I really don't like our defensive set piece set up. Last match we had Millar blocking De Ligt at the back post to little effect. Yesterday, he was stacked up against Giroud. Talk about setting up a guy for failure (Giroud almost scored off a set piece). We've looked really shaky so far imo.

A big part of me thinks that France never really got out of first gear, but the optimist in me will say that we made them uncomfortable.

I also noticed Millar on Giroud but only because of the screen at the stadium focussing in. Then Larin is asked to be the near post guy.

Fine, they prefer Larin not to be a main manmarker, but in the case of yesterday we were short big bodies. And if you look at his season, Larin has spent lots of time defending set pieces in the box with Mallorca.

Interesting your read on the press. I felt first half that Johnston was more isolated and the right side was more exposed. I even got his yellow as saying  "hey guys help me over here". But a lot of that was Millar playing outstanding two way football on his side and Tajon being far more tentative both ways. 

Not sure it's what you're saying but David is actually good pressing high and closes keepers down fast. And Larin is more used to blocking the outlet from the keeper. 

Edited June 10 by Unnamed Trialist

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

6 hours ago, Bigandy said:

The build up play is interesting. 
 

against the big guys we needed to slow down the game a bit and keep possession to shift the momentum.  This meant some backwards passing triangles until we could switch the ball out of possession.  We then were able to shift our whole team forward into the middle and attacking third with our cbs in possession.  We need to do this but then we also struggle to break down the opposition who has dropped into shape.  
 

we rarely are able to win possession and counter against top teams as their press makes it so hard for us to retain and counter.  
 

Buildup play:

counters- I feel we are going to counter from winning the ball up higher on the pitch (which doesn’t really suit our speed). Compared to how we counter the entire field vs minnows.

 

slower build up- kone and draw receive the ball between the forward and mid line of the opposition. They then play out wide or to David who lays it off out wide. We progress down the field and then sort of pass in a horseshoe around the box and hope for an opening.  Not sure how we solve this as Laron’s too static to break down a low block and we don’t have a lock picker who can basically force us to be creative.  We rely on beating a man 1v1 to create overloads atm.

 

@WestHamCanadianinOxford I really like how you see the game. Any thoughts on the build up play? 

 

 

Sorry - have to adult sometimes.

 

My two cents.

We've seen three different build-up I think in the last three games.

Netherlands (not the right order but makes sense to me in response) -  we didn't try a lot of prolonged built-up, we really were just pressing and looking for high turnovers or direct, fast wing play -  it is where the chances came.  We learned that against a good fast team, the ball coming right back at you, a lot, is not a good thing. We either have to get better at the situational pressing through the game (a last a big part of the plan, I think) or do what we did against France. 

Against France - we kept our distance, were quite smart with ball and didn't force a lot. It helped that they let us, to some extent. We always tried to get and create something, it wasn't counterattack football in most senses.  But if we needed a win to stay in tournament, for instance, we didn't create enough chances with it.

So you go back to when we needed a win - T&T.  Different coach but for reference.  Lots of build up but as you say we did rely on one-on-one wins and we probably should have finished some chances we got from those.  Game was stretching, we were fitter, and the goals game in semi transition and in full transition.  Going forward, I think we full gegenpress those teams and ones bit better, because 1) we aren't as scared they will punish us 2)they will make mistakes easier.    

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Ah. My bad on the 4%.  I thought on fotmob he was 1/14 passes but he was 1/7 which is 14%.   Not sure where you got the 4/11 and what is or isn’t accurate but either way, shaf was shocking with his passing. 

The real problem is that m 95 in a scoreless draw vs France, a ball goes out to Mbappe on their left and we're isolated one on one--and he's nowhere to be seen.  He's not even in the picture. Wtf?

His defensive maturity is NCAA level.

[TGAA_Star]

Larin definitely showed me in yesterday's match that he is starting to slow down. We definitely need a striker out there who is not only fast but one who will not hesitate to bury chances when given the ball. Need Ugbo or Bair out there.

[Ruud]

11 hours ago, frmr said:

Millar hit the bar from outside the box...

Off target but yeah fair.  But from our top two guys up front? 

Edited June 11 by Ruud

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, Ruud said:

...Or make good last minute decisions even though we are told David and Larin are a good strike force ?  As per above I wish we saw Bair...

Agree that we need to see more out of Jonathan David. But he plays for Lille rather than Motherwell doesn't cut it as an argument if there is consistently no end product. The CMNT coach needs to actively explore what works for his team rather than at club level. The concept that he could watch games from the bench might be a useful motivational tool.