France vs Canada - Sunday June 9 - 9:15pm local 3:15 EST; 12:15 Pacific - Bordeaux

[jhoops__]

We don’t have anyone up top that does the little things that David does.   Be nice if he scores no doubt but his value to our team play is really not replaceable imo.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Canada’s draw against France felt historic, but what can they learn from it?
Joshua Kloke nytimes.com/athletic June 10, 2024

 

[frmr]

7 hours ago, Ruud said:

Off target but yeah fair.  But from our top two guys up front? 

I mean you can't just write players off if they don't score for a couple games. France and Netherlands are world class opponents. Should France bench Mbappe and Thuram because they didn't score against Canada? David and Larin's goal scoring records for Canada speak or themselves.

[frmr]

duplicate

Edited June 11 by frmr

[Gian-Luca]

13 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The real problem is that m 95 in a scoreless draw vs France, a ball goes out to Mbappe on their left and we're isolated one on one--and he's nowhere to be seen.  He's not even in the picture. Wtf?

His defensive maturity is NCAA level.

This strikes me as a bit harsh, since in the play in question, Mbappe was isolated one on one vs. Bombito (despite the British commentator in the highlights put out by Fox Soccer & DAZN saying it was Laryea). The help there should first and foremost be coming from the right fullback, rather than the player playing further up the field. I will have to watch the full play again as I am not sure if Laryea was actually on the right at that point or if it was now Hiebert, but with our team high up the field looking to get the winner, I wouldn't think it was the right winger/midfielder that was the main culprit in not giving the right-sided CB the defensive support there. IIRC the ball was lost deep in the French end, leading to their counter-attack.

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

This strikes me as a bit harsh, since in the play in question, Mbappe was isolated one on one vs. Bombito (despite the British commentator in the highlights put out by Fox Soccer & DAZN saying it was Laryea). The help there should first and foremost be coming from the right fullback, rather than the player playing further up the field. I will have to watch the full play again as I am not sure if Laryea was actually on the right at that point or if it was now Hiebert, but with our team high up the field looking to get the winner, I wouldn't think it was the right winger/midfielder that was the main culprit in not giving the right-sided CB the defensive support there. IIRC the ball was lost deep in the French end, leading to their counter-attack.

Laryea was covering Mbappe on the open field attack.

On the one I am talking about, Shaff is trying to close down Camavinga deep who releases to Mbappe, who is covered by Laryea, then Staq gets there, even Millar from the opposite side gets into the box. So okay, he was pressuring high, but it is probably not the right place to be as he misinterprets the game situation entirely.

Just compare, in the first half there was a play when Johnston went forward up the right side near our supporter group, quite high with Tajon, and you look up and who is playing right back 10 m inside the halfway line, in position: Eustaquio. Then they look at each other, watch how the French move out, and Johnston moves back--but not automatically, Staq holds until he knows its covered. 

Millar was back in his own box clearing more than once and helping Davies double team Dembele constantly. In fact, the speed of his transition to defense from attacking position was laudable. Tajon was not as good but did it right.

There is one other play m. 87 when France attack up the right, and Shaff gets back very quickly to cover Barcola, but does not hold position properly, it gets passed to Mbappe and Shaff does a goofy attempt at a poke tackle on one of the top 5 players in the world and Kylian gets a shot away. At least he was where he had to be, but he's a liability. If he ever gets a chance to play a higher level he'll get his puerile idea of the game slapped out of him.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

At least he was where he had to be, but he's a liability. If he ever gets a chance to play a higher level he'll get his puerile idea of the game slapped out of him.

It is just funny that you were clamouring for Corbeanu when these are the types of mental/effort lapses on defence that he has been benched for (only explicitly indentified  in past years at past clubs, to be fair but the pattern of losing a lot of pitch time remains).

Edited June 11 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[costarg]

1 hour ago, frmr said:

I mean you can't just write players off if they don't score for a couple games. France and Netherlands are world class opponents. Should France bench Mbappe and Thuram because they didn't score against Canada? David and Larin's goal scoring records for Canada speak or themselves.

We know Larin can score, but the other phases of his game left a lot to be desired.  He didn't look very mobile vs T&T either.  Unfortunately we don't have the luxury of playing guys based on what they've done for CANMNT in the past.  We know we have guys that can also score and contribute in other ways as well.  It's a tough call.

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Laryea was covering Mbappe on the open field attack.

On the one I am talking about, Shaff is trying to close down Camavinga deep who releases to Mbappe, who is covered by Laryea, then Staq gets there, even Millar from the opposite side gets into the box. So okay, he was pressuring high, but it is probably not the right place to be as he misinterprets the game situation entirely.

 

Ok, I will have to go back and re-watch the game and/or extended highlights to find the play you are referring to. I think the confusion is arising because Mbappe attack in the 95th minute he's definitely going one-on-one with Bombito (#15), despite what the British commentator might think by claiming it was Laryea (who was wearing #22 - Wheeler called it correctly on the onesoccer highlights). Laryea is actually on the left side of the field at this point and it looks like it is Hiebert who was on the right at that point, but I'll have to confirm later. The play you are referring to must be earlier than the 95th if it was Mbappe vs. Laryea

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, jhoops__ said:

We don’t have anyone up top that does the little things that David does.   Be nice if he scores no doubt but his value to our team play is really not replaceable imo.

The guy up top is ultimately there to do one big thing though. He's got a good scoring record for the CMNT against weaker CONCACAF opposition but it hasn't been happening against the higher FIFA ranking teams and from what I've been seeing from my vantage point hasn't looked like it was about to happen even when there has been a decent amount of possession and pressure against that type of opponent.

When somebody is perpetually rumoured to be about to move to top Premiership and Serie A clubs you expect a bit more than what we are seeing in those games. There shouldn't be any reticence about trying another option about 70 minutes in just because the clubs the guys on the bench play for are less exalted than Lille. Ultimately it should be all about finding out what clicks for the CMNT.

Edited June 11 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

On the one I am talking about, Shaff is trying to close down Camavinga deep who releases to Mbappe, who is covered by Laryea, then Staq gets there, even Millar from the opposite side gets into the box. So okay, he was pressuring high, but it is probably not the right place to be as he misinterprets the game situation entirely.

You will have to give the timestamp on that. Or what was the end of the play. I can't find another play that Camavinga releases Mbappe when Shaffelburg is on the pitch.

 

I did see Shaffelburg track back to win the ball a couple times, once against Mendy and once, in tandem, where he came away with it and start the move that led to Laryea pass behind/David miscontrol that should have been a great chance. 

 

Edited June 11 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

Ok, I will have to go back and re-watch the game and/or extended highlights to find the play you are referring to. I think the confusion is arising because Mbappe attack in the 95th minute he's definitely going one-on-one with Bombito (#15), despite what the British commentator might think by claiming it was Laryea (who was wearing #22 - Wheeler called it correctly on the onesoccer highlights). Laryea is actually on the left side of the field at this point and it looks like it is Hiebert who was on the right at that point, but I'll have to confirm later. The play you are referring to must be earlier than the 95th if it was Mbappe vs. Laryea

Important context of the 95th minute chance - it came off our bad pass by Millar/Osorio being too slow.  They were in transition. Shaffelburg was in the box attacking and had to run back to get any pressure on Camavinga.

I guess if we were completely parking the bus, you could say Shaffelburg should not have been in their box but we were still looking for something more. 

[vancanman]

On 6/10/2024 at 6:37 AM, beachesl said:

WELL, Giroud is a great and favorite player, and his reaction reminded me of Esposito's understandable frustration against the Russians in 1972. We continued frustrating a great team, beyond 50 minutes we did in Rotterdam.. 

He may be a great player, and in fact some people's favourite, but that doesn't compel me to like him.  As I said, I didn't like him before this match.

[Corazon]

Had to rewatch as I was only able to watch a little bit off and on when it was live.  But what a result.

Crepeau -  I feel a whole lot better about our keeper situation after that performance.  Incredible

Bombito - Great performance and huge potential.  I’m excited to follow his path.

Cornelius - Hard to hate on Kamal as he’s been solid for us for so long but this is Cornelius spot to lose now.

Johnston - Better game from him.  
Davies - Much better game from Davies as well.  If he can play like that, I’ll happily accept him at LB

Eustaquio - Incredible performance.  What a duo him and Kone are for us.  Quite a drop in our midfield after those two.

Kone - Wow.  I thought Eustaquio was great but Kone was incredible.  Elite potential on him as a player.

Millar - What a goal that almost was.  He’s too important defensively to not start at this point.

Buchanan - Not bad but not quite himself either.

David - Does all the little things but his final decision was a bit off tonight.  Regardless of his struggles he’s still one of the moment important and influential players.

Larin - I don’t think it’s really all his fault.  Sometimes players are victims to formation change.  He’s still way ahead of our 3rd best striker imo but the leash is getting shorter game by game.

Laryea - Great job off the bench.  Would love to see him start.  Will be interested to see if Marsch considers him at LB.

Miller - Solid enough performance.  Has so much heart.

Osorio - Fine performance by him.  He didn’t look out of place.

Hiebert - Looks to be a fringe player Canada imo.

Shaffelburg - Better from him but the level is a bit high I find.  Still worthy of a spot on roster.

Tani - Just super excited this all happened and he was able to get minutes.

[eramosat]

1 hour ago, Corazon said:

Had to rewatch as I was only able to watch a little bit off and on when it was live.  But what a result.

Crepeau -  I feel a whole lot better about our keeper situation after that performance.  Incredible

Bombito - Great performance and huge potential.  I’m excited to follow his path.

Cornelius - Hard to hate on Kamal as he’s been solid for us for so long but this is Cornelius spot to lose now.

Johnston - Better game from him.  
Davies - Much better game from Davies as well.  If he can play like that, I’ll happily accept him at LB

Eustaquio - Incredible performance.  What a duo him and Kone are for us.  Quite a drop in our midfield after those two.

Kone - Wow.  I thought Eustaquio was great but Kone was incredible.  Elite potential on him as a player.

Millar - What a goal that almost was.  He’s too important defensively to not start at this point.

Buchanan - Not bad but not quite himself either.

David - Does all the little things but his final decision was a bit off tonight.  Regardless of his struggles he’s still one of the moment important and influential players.

Larin - I don’t think it’s really all his fault.  Sometimes players are victims to formation change.  He’s still way ahead of our 3rd best striker imo but the leash is getting shorter game by game.

Laryea - Great job off the bench.  Would love to see him start.  Will be interested to see if Marsch considers him at LB.

Miller - Solid enough performance.  Has so much heart.

Osorio - Fine performance by him.  He didn’t look out of place.

Hiebert - Looks to be a fringe player Canada imo.

Shaffelburg - Better from him but the level is a bit high I find.  Still worthy of a spot on roster.

Tani - Just super excited this all happened and he was able to get minutes.

Two thumbs up.  It was really quite a great-to-good showing across the board for the most part, and the sums of the various parts were just as encouraging.  If the search for a dependable starting back line is really over (fingers crossed), and someone back there asserts themselves managing the offsides, then the search for a 3rd mid who fits can become priority numero uno. 

I recall Oso being that missing link in so many CONCACAF matches, making connections amongst the mids but also forward.  The best Canada sides had him in play.  Piette cannot do it, and no other candidate has shown nearly the chemistry Oso can bring.   I am not thinking he is the right option going forward, but he can perhaps help a teammate figure out the right balance?  

[Unnamed Trialist]

17 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Ok, I will have to go back and re-watch the game and/or extended highlights to find the play you are referring to. I think the confusion is arising because Mbappe attack in the 95th minute he's definitely going one-on-one with Bombito (#15), despite what the British commentator might think by claiming it was Laryea (who was wearing #22 - Wheeler called it correctly on the onesoccer highlights). Laryea is actually on the left side of the field at this point and it looks like it is Hiebert who was on the right at that point, but I'll have to confirm later. The play you are referring to must be earlier than the 95th if it was Mbappe vs. Laryea

You're right then. Odd because live I thought it was Bombito then rewatching they said Laryea, on my phone I wouldn't recognize my own mother. 

Still irks me that in critical game situations you can let Mbappe run free, can't be.

Edited June 12 by Unnamed Trialist

[costarg]

8 hours ago, eramosat said:

I recall Oso being that missing link in so many CONCACAF matches, making connections amongst the mids but also forward.  The best Canada sides had him in play.  Piette cannot do it, and no other candidate has shown nearly the chemistry Oso can bring.  

Like most teams in 2024, we don't really need this profile in the middle anymore.  Our midfield was a lot different in WCQ.  Stache and Kone both have strong offensive instincts and play.  They're just stuck covering too much ground playing a two-man midfield vs the stronger teams.  David drops back to do it a lot as well.  We also have creative and offensive wingers as well as FB's.  Osorio is ok for depth, but we don't need that connecting piece in the starting 11.

[Lansdude]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

Like most teams in 2024, we don't really need this profile in the middle anymore.  Our midfield was a lot different in WCQ.  Stache and Kone both have strong offensive instincts and play.  They're just stuck covering too much ground playing a two-man midfield vs the stronger teams.  David drops back to do it a lot as well.  We also have creative and offensive wingers as well as FB's.  Osorio is ok for depth, but we don't need that connecting piece in the starting 11.

Ideally we need a stronger out-and-out striker, hold up artist and aerial threat playing off David than Larin. Then we'd have everything we need north-south creatively.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Lansdude said:

Ideally we need a stronger out-and-out striker, hold up artist and aerial threat playing off David than Larin. Then we'd have everything we need north-south creatively.

Bair and Vilsaint would probably be the most naturally suited for that role, hopefully that develops.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 hours ago, Lansdude said:

Ideally we need a stronger out-and-out striker, hold up artist and aerial threat playing off David than Larin. Then we'd have everything we need north-south creatively.

I'm not seeing that role as hugely important with Marsch.  He wants turnovers and quick, easy goals or if France is an indication a bit of control with the ball.  Long balls up to a target man not a regular thing. 

[GasPed]

50 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I'm not seeing that role as hugely important with Marsch.  He wants turnovers and quick, easy goals or if France is an indication a bit of control with the ball.  Long balls up to a target man not a regular thing. 

I kind of agree, but would note that against France we created some very good chances off of some fast moving counters/direct play - and it's that kind of speed/athleticism that is (or at least has been) and probably should be a primary source of xG for us.  I don't think a traditional 9 is what we need to facilitate that, but we do need someone who can be that intermediate outlet/relay for the counter - ideally someone who can get to and knockdown a chest high ball from our CB's and immediately one-touch it to a winger, or can turn and go with it.  Tbh, we just need another Jonny David.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

20 minutes ago, GasPed said:

I kind of agree, but would note that against France we created some very good chances off of some fast moving counters/direct play - and it's that kind of speed/athleticism that is (or at least has been) and probably should be a primary source of xG for us.  I don't think a traditional 9 is what we need to facilitate that, but we do need someone who can be that intermediate outlet/relay for the counter - ideally someone who can get to and knockdown a chest high ball from our CB's and immediately one-touch it to a winger, or can turn and go with it.  Tbh, we just need another Jonny David.

David does it extremely well on the break if the ball is to feet.  I think that what we are built to do.  

If you are asking for high balls chested down, you are asking for a 9/target man/hold up player.  The issue is a lot of time those players are bit slower.  I think we  are going to (or should) to priortise speed in the forward areas.  The thing is Larin is not slow, just plays languid a lot of time. 

But I still would rather another midfielder or a midfielder set up in the 10 position.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

Something else no one commented on, or maybe I missed it: we ended this match with 8 MLS players on the pitch. The only who weren't were Millar, David and Eustaquio. 

We replaced 6 European based players with 6 MLS players from 5 different teams. 

That sounds like a statement from Marsch, and in fact it is not a bad calling card for MLS. 

[SpursFlu]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Something else no one commented on, or maybe I missed it: we ended this match with 8 MLS players on the pitch. The only who weren't were Millar, David and Eustaquio. 

We replaced 6 European based players with 6 MLS players from 5 different teams. 

That sounds like a statement from Marsch, and in fact it is not a bad calling card for MLS. 

Couldn't the same be said for the previous game when it was a debacle once those guys got on the field. The subs for both teams came later in the France game so with all the subs you can use now the last 10 minutes just turned in to a dogs breakfast with no flow. Not much you can take from that

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Couldn't the same be said for the previous game when it was a debacle once those guys got on the field. The subs for both teams came later in the France game so with all the subs you can use now the last 10 minutes just turned in to a dogs breakfast with no flow. Not much you can take from that

IIRC Shaffelburg was the only player who subbed in both games, so not really "the same guys". Plus 3 of the 5 subs against the Dutch were not current MLS players.

I suspect we got more MLS players as subs in game 2 because the first game was only a couple of days after the MLS guys got into camp. For Laryea specifically, more time for him to continue to get fit.