The Netherlands vs Canada - Thursday, June 6th - 2:45pm Eastern / 11:45am Pacific - Rotterdam

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

But I'm not sure what the original overall point was.

I just thought that it was by design, and that part worked for that period of time. 

It was telling that they attacked less there when options came open in the second.

 

7 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

The fact that we posed no attacking threat down that side and Van de Ven was posing one (his run and cross leading to a great chance) meant that they didn't need to allocate a player over there to provide extra support, especially defensively.

I just felt that if we could generate some more open play threat on that right side, be it on the counter from an opposing corner or free kick clearance or from our own build up, the opponent has to deal with that exposure.  Perhaps Gravenberch has to drop back to do more defensive support for his LB, but that wasn't the case so he gets to drift over as part of the attacking build up going down our own left. I guess that's my point.  As I said, the pressing and positioning early on looked good and they had created a handful of turnovers but we didn't do anything with them so we didn't really make them that uncomfortable.  Maybe on another night, we do, but once they started to make adjustments with more direct play bypassing the press, be it with some route ones or finding Wijnaldum on the build up on the second with an outlet pass that took all of our front six, including both central mids, the dynamics of the match changed.

Don't get me wrong:  I liked how we looked with our pressing and positioning in the first half and it was a positive one, even if our keeper had to make some very good saves.  I am looking forward to seeing how Marsch will approach the France game.

[JAVIERF]

4 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

We looked ok with those guys on the pitch. We seemed to decline with each sub. You would think that the MLS guys would be in top condition at this time of the season, but most of them were relegated to the bench. 

Anyway, it's an easy thing for a new coach to criticize and it happens all the time, but sometimes the coach is correct. I think this may be one of those times.

Man,  don't be deluded 

 

Yes Canada had one really good off Larin and one at the begining from David 

But Holland had two chances cleared off the line as the game was reaching half time

Canada played Ok 25 first minutes 

[JAVIERF]

4 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

Remember that Iceland also beat England at Euro 2016.

I can't forget that match !! The 3 lions Italy Brazil and Germany always make some people smile 

I spare France because of Miterrand 

[74 Whitecap]

39 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

1) If you think gegenpress is pressing for 90 minutes, you don't actually know the system.

2) We aren't of "limited talent", we have a lot of talent in certain areas.  Defending against sustained attacks is not one of them though.  

3) We aren't going to train to be a bunker team like Iceland have been for years, thank goodness, it is a huge waste of a generation. If Davies spends 65% of the game defending in his own final third, you are neutering him, sorry. David is a lot things, an out and out speedster or a target man - vital for your counter attack - are not them.

4) "I have yet to see any evidence in can be effective for us" - it is actally a pointless less observation because we aren't trying to get to a place where we press for 90' .  For instance, we didn't press for the whole first half of that game and were effective in decent chunks against a great team. 

 

Edit: I should add that my post was in response to someone saying that we can't press a good team. And said nothing about 90' minutes.

So maybe we actually agree on the fundamental point.

 

I wish it wasn't true, but saying that we aren't of limited talent, when the topic is playing Holland, France and then Argentina, just seems like wishful thinking to me. We have to be able to play multiple ways and to adapt our play to the point in the game and to the opponent. I don't think anyone is saying we bunker all the time, but we have to know how to play to protect ourselves defensively, either because we are protecting a lead or because we are playing a top opponent and the odds favour us best in a low-chance match. 

Anyway, like I said, it is game 1 under a new coach, and a friendly at that, against one of the top teams in the world, so hard to read too much into it - we will see what happens as time goes along.

[costarg]

4 hours ago, OhCanadaOhBaby said:

To further this, the most damming part of the performance for me, specifically with regard to this AD19 captaincy experiment, was how bad the level dropped after conceding the first goal. Phonzie looked TERRIBLE on defence letting Frimpong have time and space to line up a nice cross, but his reaction was NOT how a captain should react.

He immediately turns away, and sulks back to position. Doesn't go to his players to bring them up, no encouragement, no direction, no energy. You can be tired, but you cannot react that way after conceding especially if you are the captain. That attitude bleed from Phonzie throughout the team in my opinion, and the impending result came as could be expected. 

I'll say it again... best player and/or highest level does not equal captain.  Neither does the loudest voice. 

Davies is best focusing on his own game in his own position.  It has never looked good when he tried to do too much either athletically or mentally.  Canada will be at it's strongest when that happens, he's already got enough pressure without the captaincy.  Don't get the man trying to figure out leading a team, keep him focused on playing his position the best he can.

[costarg]

4 hours ago, OhCanadaOhBaby said:

I know this is super long, but I also want to mention that after this match, I believe Shaff's role is cemented as a pacy, athletic, and dangerous winger for this team. He should be starting over Liam Millar in that formation.

I'm sorry, what?  Shaff over Liam?  Not sure we watched the same match.  Shaff is very good at what he does, but what he does is a very small one-way role.  His stats might look good, but the 11 is not better with him there.  Whereas Liam makes the 11 better, he's got a higher soccer IQ and works his ass off both ways.  

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Brethers8 said:

Brym was always going to play in this game, he plays locally and has actually played in club games recently (as opposed to Theo).

We absolutely would not lose respect for subbing on a player who's made 32 appearances on the team who came 8th in the Eredivisie. Certainly no less than if we'd played a guy who couldn't break into the punching bag of La Liga. I really like Theo but he just hasn't earned a spot on the roster with his lack of playing time 

By this logic Tajon should not have played either then.

Will we bench Davies or David if they move to powerhouses but get reduced minutes?  Theo's team is stronger than Brym's, he's also younger and has a higher ceiling.  Theo has also showed a lot more in his limited minutes with CANMNT compared to Brym, both in energy, production and just plain talent.  

Like you said, he played because they were in Rotterdam.  There is no other explanation or justification for it.  Marsch gets a freebie on this one since he only had a few weeks to put the squad together.  Even then, the only reason he was there was because Herdman and Biello gave him 13 caps and most definitely strongly suggested he should be there.  Once Marsch gets a proper look, this conversation will end.  

[costarg]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, I feel the depiction of Brym in recent posts hasn't been really fair here. And that come from a guy who didn't think he should have been called until fairly recently.

He plays for a mid-table team in probably the sixth league in the world and is a fairly frequently used sub who scored five goals this year. To say we are above that is hubris, there is no two way about it IMO. 

He would have a place in the vast majority of national teams across the world. Hell, he'd be a starter no question ask in a pretty clear majority of national teams and there is millions upon millions of Soccer fans all over the planet who'd kill to have a striker pool where he is just a substitute like we have!

2 angles:

1- It's not that he doesn't belong, it's that we have better players in the same position.  2016 he'd be a definite call up, but not today and not even in 2022.  Only thing he has going for him is he can play both winger and striker.

2- He's had LOTS of chances to show something and he's never grabbed it by the balls.  He doesn't run, he doesn't press, he doesn't defend and he's scored 1 vs a minnow.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

13 hours ago, 74 Whitecap said:

I wish it wasn't true, but saying that we aren't of limited talent, when the topic is playing Holland, France and then Argentina, just seems like wishful thinking to me. We have to be able to play multiple ways and to adapt our play to the point in the game and to the opponent. I don't think anyone is saying we bunker all the time, but we have to know how to play to protect ourselves defensively, either because we are protecting a lead or because we are playing a top opponent and the odds favour us best in a low-chance match. 

Anyway, like I said, it is game 1 under a new coach, and a friendly at that, against one of the top teams in the world, so hard to read too much into it - we will see what happens as time goes along.

I agree but there are different ways to do that. 

- Most basically - as my team has done under the very recent manager and had some relative success doing so - you get back, maintain your shape  and be disciplined.  

- Another general way is gegenpress, get the ball back immediately or at least don't give the opposition the time and space to pick easy passes or an easy road to possession in your half. 

I think we have the players that better match the latter. 

 

To do the former with West Ham you had Kurt Zouma - vastly experienced and solid mentally, an European international veteran right back, and a left back that has literally won every European trophy and the Euros.  You fronted that with Declan Rice, for a lot of it, a world-class DM with size, decent pace and intelligence. But even after him you had Edson Alverez, who we should know, and other big bodies. 

That's not what Canada has even if you were to scale it down to a CONCACAF level.  Our new centre backs' best qualities are pace and aggression not neccesarily discipline. Same with fullbacks who are better going forward than defending, especially if you play Davies there. We still make a lot of bad passes at the back. And we don't have a destroyer DM with pace and size. 

But if we get beat on the press, we seem now to have some recovery pace. 

 

One last thing, "playing multiple ways" is easy to say but a lot of time game come down to a split second decision about how you react.  You need to be drilled in those reactions and especially with international time constraints, drilling multiple is tough.  

Everyone needs to know what happens when you lose the ball -  a critical moment in any system.  If some of the team tries get back into shape and some gegenpress, it opens huge gaps.  I think you need to pick one at least initially.

Edited June 8 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[top cheese]

I think the positives outweighed the negatives for this friendly. Its clear there is some potential with this group but there is a clear gap between the top players and the ones playing MLS. Hopefully more exposures to this level of competition leads to moves for some of the MLS based players to more established European leagues. 

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

That's not what Canada has even if you were to scale it down to a CONCACAF level.  Our new centre backs' best qualities are pace and aggression not neccesarily discipline. Same with fullbacks who are better going forward than defending, especially if you play Davies there. We still make a lot of bad passes at the back. And we don't have a destroyer DM with pace and size. 

Ya, that's definitely us at the moment.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

By this logic Tajon should not have played either then.

Will we bench Davies or David if they move to powerhouses but get reduced minutes?  Theo's team is stronger than Brym's, he's also younger and has a higher ceiling.  Theo has also showed a lot more in his limited minutes with CANMNT compared to Brym, both in energy, production and just plain talent.  

Like you said, he played because they were in Rotterdam.  There is no other explanation or justification for it.  Marsch gets a freebie on this one since he only had a few weeks to put the squad together.  Even then, the only reason he was there was because Herdman and Biello gave him 13 caps and most definitely strongly suggested he should be there.  Once Marsch gets a proper look, this conversation will end.  

I am still really cheering for Corbeanu and have not been impressed overly with Buchanan for us since his move, but people really think you should rationally compare their inclusion?  

On your second paragraph, Corbeanu did not move to a powerhouse, he moved to a poor team in a great league.  And he has also shown us 11 minutes in the last 2 1/2 years.  A lot changes in that time. 

I do get a little frustrated when people make statements like the bolded one.  I could just as easily say "Theo doesn't want to be called up right now" and have just as much actual evidence of it.

[Brethers8]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

By this logic Tajon should not have played either then.

Will we bench Davies or David if they move to powerhouses but get reduced minutes?  Theo's team is stronger than Brym's, he's also younger and has a higher ceiling.  Theo has also showed a lot more in his limited minutes with CANMNT compared to Brym, both in energy, production and just plain talent.  

Like you said, he played because they were in Rotterdam.  There is no other explanation or justification for it.  Marsch gets a freebie on this one since he only had a few weeks to put the squad together.  Even then, the only reason he was there was because Herdman and Biello gave him 13 caps and most definitely strongly suggested he should be there.  Once Marsch gets a proper look, this conversation will end.  

The difference between Buchanan and Corbeanu is so obvious though, he's one of our best players. Why are he gnashing our teeth over the exclusion of a guy who played 50 minutes in his last 8 possible games (45 of which came in one game)??

Brym deserved to be in the squad, he plays consistently at a good level. Presumably Marsch is going to be looking at as many players as possible in these two games. Therefore, Bryms look was always be the Rotterdam game and he earned that chance with his club play. I really hope Corbeanu can get some good game time next season and make a case for playing for Canada, I think he has a lot of potential

[kacbru]

A whole lot of words here, but I don't think the system or first subs off the bench really matter. Love em or leave em, but FIFA rankings have it right. The result is exactly what should be expected when a top ten team plays a team in the 50s. 

[Bigandy]

5 hours ago, costarg said:

2 angles:

1- It's not that he doesn't belong, it's that we have better players in the same position.  2016 he'd be a definite call up, but not today and not even in 2022.  Only thing he has going for him is he can play both winger and striker.

2- He's had LOTS of chances to show something and he's never grabbed it by the balls.  He doesn't run, he doesn't press, he doesn't defend and he's scored 1 vs a minnow.

I think it’s important to see how Marsch used Brym. As a winger/ cam in a 442/4222.

when you look at our depth chart it makes sense to include Brym (considering Davies as a lb) 

1. Buchanan 

2. millar 

3. shaf?

4. Brym?

5. Corbeneu

7. Nelson 

8.??

I looove the idea of including corbeanu. Trust me. But he’s not refined defensively, doesn’t appear to have the same energy levels as Brym, is arguably less versatile and it’s the first camp to see how players fit at this level in a new system.  We learned shaf is not capable of being defensively responsible but can use his pace against tiring legs. Brym felt ok at everything. Good at nothing.  
 

I actually rather prefer Brym in the cam winger depth chart than striker. If millar or buchanan can’t start the 3rd game of the tournament, I don’t mind Brym starting and shaf subbing for him.  

[Ruud]

14 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Brym makes sense as a training body and as a deference to him playing in Rotterdam, you are right. But it made us look laughing stock by playing him. The fans, mostly Feyenoord fans, saw that and our credit tumbled immediately. 

 

you prefer to be Mike Babcock and leave out a player who has suited up over and over to be on the bench go ahead. I fully expected Brym to be rewarded this way for his commitment to Canada.  Make family and friends proud 

[Ruud]

On 6/6/2024 at 6:54 PM, Unnamed Trialist said:

We heard you early in the first half a few times and very well, thanks. 

Did the players go over and acknowledge you after the game, my feed cut off just as it ended?

Seems as though they did- I had to rush off to catch a train so I had to miss that part.  I hope someone got it in photos 

[costarg]

8 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I am still really cheering for Corbeanu and have not been impressed overly with Buchanan for us since his move, but people really think you should rationally compare their inclusion?  

On your second paragraph, Corbeanu did not move to a powerhouse, he moved to a poor team in a great league.  And he has also shown us 11 minutes in the last 2 1/2 years.  A lot changes in that time. 

Nah, I'm not comparing Corbeanu and Tajon.  I'm comparing the situation.  If we say Corbeanu should not be called because he didn't play enough, the same can also be said about Tajon.

Sure not playing much in the past few months hurts Corbeanu, but he's also in La Liga, Brym will never find himself there.

7 hours ago, Brethers8 said:

 Why are he gnashing our teeth over the exclusion of a guy who played 50 minutes in his last 8 possible games (45 of which came in one game)??

Brym played 201 minutes the last 8 games.  It's better, but not a landslide either.  We're not talking about an Eredivisie starter.

[costarg]

4 hours ago, Bigandy said:

doesn’t appear to have the same energy levels as Brym, is arguably less versatile

This is what we've been saying for years now.  He should have the energy level, we just haven't seen it yet.

Bottom line, I hope Brym bangs in 3 next match and presses the shit out of the French, which gets himself called up again the next window.  I don't dislike him, I just feel he's never shown anything in the 13 opportunities he's had with CANMNT.  There has to be accountability.  I don't hold anything against Marsch for calling him up and playing him.  Looking at his caps anyone from the outside would think he was an moderately important player for us.

Thing about Shaff and Theo, we know they have defensive gaps, but they contribute offensively at every single chance.  They show up.  Brym does nothing on both sides of the ball and never looked like he wanted to there.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

Nah, I'm not comparing Corbeanu and Tajon.  I'm comparing the situation.  If we say Corbeanu should not be called because he didn't play enough, the same can also be said about Tajon.

Sure not playing much in the past few months hurts Corbeanu, but he's also in La Liga, Brym will never find himself there.

Brym played 201 minutes the last 8 games.  It's better, but not a landslide either.  We're not talking about an Eredivisie starter.

Come on, mate.  The ridiculousness of pretending you don't have to consider the player, the history, the club...a whole lot of things...in making a comparison about their playing time is pretty clear.

You are essentially putting your fingers in your ears to block out all context and yelling "I'm just comparing the situation." 

We might as well ask why another winger Koleosho wasn't called, if we pretend nothing else matters but getting picked despite lack of playing time.

Pretty silly, right?

Edited June 8 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Kadenge]

Watched the 1st half again last night, without any emotional anxiety and I have to say we played very well for 30+ mins. If one factors in the opponent, lack of prep, new coach & system it was an impressive performance. But a combo of the Dutch turning up the tempo & sloppy passing, concentration gaps & failed assignments started to take its toll. The lack of form/few mins at clubs for some of our top players was in evidence re first touches, sharpness, hold up play which all started to have an impact. Davies actually had a very good half defensively as did Cornelius who  saved a sure goal right on the line. Bombito also did very well given he had the more difficult assignment marking Brobbey. Not going to get any easier nxt game.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Come on, mate.  The ridiculousness of pretending you don't have consider the player, the history, the club...a whole lot of things...in making a comparison about their playing time is pretty clear.

You are essentially putting your fingers in your ears to block out all context and yelling "I'm just comparing the situation." 

We might as well ask why another winger Koleosho wasn't called, if we pretend nothing else matters but getting picked despite lack of playing time.

Pretty silly, right?

Once again, I have nothing against Brym, I hope he turns it around.  I honestly do believe there must be an issue with Theo somewhere given his situation.  But there is no way to spin it to justify Brym's 13 caps over the other guys.  He just has not performed well enough to get another look over the other guys.

Like you suggest, lets break it down by history, club, etc....

Brym 25, $550K, 1g in 400'.

Corbeanu 22, $1.5M, 2g in 168'.

Until this year they've played similar levels.  Theo now plays on a better team in a better league.  They have similar pro minutes yet Theo is almost 4 years younger.  Brym has 40g and 14a playing mostly as a striker while Theo has 22g and 14a playing as winger and WB.

Theo has grabbed his opportunity, while Brym has coasted and floated around.  No sense of urgency and no flashes of skill that we've seen from a lot of our other guys.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

7 minutes ago, costarg said:

Once again, I have nothing against Brym, I hope he turns it around.  I honestly do believe there must be an issue with Theo somewhere given his situation.  But there is no way to spin it to justify Brym's 13 caps over the other guys.  He just has not performed well enough to get another look over the other guys.

Like you suggest, lets break it down by history, club, etc....

Brym 25, $550K, 1g in 400'.

Corbeanu 22, $1.5M, 2g in 168'.

Until this year they've played similar levels.  Theo now plays on a better team in a better league.  They have similar pro minutes yet Theo is almost 4 years younger.  Brym has 40g and 14a playing mostly as a striker while Theo has 22g and 14a playing as winger and WB.

Theo has grabbed his opportunity, while Brym has coasted and floated around.  No sense of urgency and no flashes of skill that we've seen from a lot of our other guys.

?

Your comparison was between Buchanan and Corbeanu.

[JAVIERF]

13 hours ago, costarg said:

I'll say it again... best player and/or highest level does not equal captain.  Neither does the loudest voice. 

Davies is best focusing on his own game in his own position.  It has never looked good when he tried to do too much either athletically or mentally.  Canada will be at it's strongest when that happens, he's already got enough pressure without the captaincy.  Don't get the man trying to figure out leading a team, keep him focused on playing his position the best he can.

Perfecto 💯 insight and narrative 

Further on, canadian people is cursing about two genuine players Shaffenburg who is an out and out left winger like DAMIAN DUFF and Zator who came on the right hand site ,  when the problem was on the  left back defender and right back right center back and Buchanan

Millar tried to keep it.  Then you changed at half time from 

4-4-2 even though David was roaming in midfield he doesn't feel it  

You didn't have a bit of bite in center mid.   For me is Eustaquio and Koné could play as extra midfield but ,  in that # 10 are better hoilett and Colyn ( who is injured)

Shaffelburg changed the formation for your coach and it went 4-3-3 

Or 4-2-4 as they said in ESPN ARGENTINA.  

SHAFFELBURG Is someone I would keep in the team  and this is the team I would play if I were your manager.  With the players at disposal 

A 4-4-1-1

GK Creapeau or St Clair 

RB Johnston /Bombito

RCB Zator 

LCB Cornelius

Lb Layrea/ Johnston 

D M Bombito /Piette

RM Davies / Millar

AM Eustaquio / Choiniere 

LM Shaffelburg / Millar

SS Buchanan / Hoilett/ Koné/

Stk David / Larin

 

 

 

[jhoops__]

You’d start Zator and Shaf?

Edited June 8 by jhoops__