The Netherlands vs Canada - Thursday, June 6th - 2:45pm Eastern / 11:45am Pacific - Rotterdam

[TGAA_Star]

4 hours ago, gator said:

Good post! As @youllneverwalkalone correctly points out, being a host country in 26 will definitely be to our advantage for hosting future friendlies, the list of opponents in 94 was impressive and we were far from good but I think it is telling how few of those top sides have come over to play us since! My point in the post I made above is that if we prove to not be a good opponent for the top teams will they be more reluctant to host us, these teams and their fans want to see competitive matches not guaranteed wins which at this point unfortunately we are providing! The teams coming over to play us leading up to 26 is more due to venues than the level of competition we can provide such as in 94! BTW I hope after Sunday this post provides a certain amount of embarrassment to me!😀

Exactly and that is the benefit of being a host nation. Top teams in the world actually want to face you or you want to face those top teams to prepare yourself for the kind of competition that you could potentially face plus our guys get more experience playing these top elite national teams which only further helps us as a ⚽️ footballing nation on the rise in world football.

[SoccMan]

So Iceland just defeats England in a friendly at Wembley 1-0 , while we got our asses handed to us against the Netherlands yesterday lol. When will we ever have a result like this against a major power ? Moreover, looking at that Iceland roster in terms of where their players play we definitely have more guys playing at higher levels. We have the Copa America coming up no more excuses we need to get something out of that tournament it’s time !

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I definitely think there's a conditioning issue and that this was a Herdman weakness and is a Concacaf weakness. MLS (and Liga MX) players are not as fit as players from top European leagues.

I would say that the big difference would be that in top European leagues you have to be mentally switched "on" constantly, even during situations which seem neutral or less threatening, because elite players punish those distracted from their jobs.  Look no further than Jordi Alba's sudden and incisive pass between Ahmed and Laborda thar released Taylor for the opener at BC Place two weeks ago.  Elite players think more moves ahead and execute them more quickly and accurately.

We only had one outfield starter from MLS.  The other Euro players should be on a similar level for fitness, no?

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

4 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

We only had one outfield starter from MLS.  The other Euro players should be on a similar level for fitness, no?

 

We looked ok with those guys on the pitch. We seemed to decline with each sub. You would think that the MLS guys would be in top condition at this time of the season, but most of them were relegated to the bench. 

Anyway, it's an easy thing for a new coach to criticize and it happens all the time, but sometimes the coach is correct. I think this may be one of those times.

[mpg_29]

33 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

So Iceland just defeats England in a friendly at Wembley 1-0 , while we got our asses handed to us against the Netherlands yesterday lol. When will we ever have a result like this against a major power ? Moreover, looking at that Iceland roster in terms of where their players play we definitely have more guys playing at higher levels. We have the Copa America coming up no more excuses we need to get something out of that tournament it’s time !

Remember that Iceland also beat England at Euro 2016.

[OhCanadaOhBaby]

5 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I take the opposite view of the bolded, we were in the game and created chances via it when we did it effectively.  

It fell apart after the subs and especially after they scored.  

But to let top ten teams have uncontested possession and runs at you in your own half is just as dangerous, while neutering our best players.

To further this, the most damming part of the performance for me, specifically with regard to this AD19 captaincy experiment, was how bad the level dropped after conceding the first goal. Phonzie looked TERRIBLE on defence letting Frimpong have time and space to line up a nice cross, but his reaction was NOT how a captain should react.

He immediately turns away, and sulks back to position. Doesn't go to his players to bring them up, no encouragement, no direction, no energy. You can be tired, but you cannot react that way after conceding especially if you are the captain. That attitude bleed from Phonzie throughout the team in my opinion, and the impending result came as could be expected. 

We did not play bad. First game under new management, new system, new players in new roles against #7 in the world. A fine first half ruined by an seemingly uninterested second half. 

 

I know this is super long, but I also want to mention that after this match, I believe Shaff's role is cemented as a pacy, athletic, and dangerous winger for this team. He should be starting over Liam Millar in that formation.

[narduch]

Romania, a team that will be in the Euros, only managing a 0-0 draw with 202nd ranked Liechtenstein is probably the most embarrassing friendly result today.

[El Diego]

40 minutes ago, OhCanadaOhBaby said:

To further this, the most damming part of the performance for me, specifically with regard to this AD19 captaincy experiment, was how bad the level dropped after conceding the first goal. Phonzie looked TERRIBLE on defence letting Frimpong have time and space to line up a nice cross, but his reaction was NOT how a captain should react.

He immediately turns away, and sulks back to position. Doesn't go to his players to bring them up, no encouragement, no direction, no energy. You can be tired, but you cannot react that way after conceding especially if you are the captain. That attitude bleed from Phonzie throughout the team in my opinion, and the impending result came as could be expected. 

We did not play bad. First game under new management, new system, new players in new roles against #7 in the world. A fine first half ruined by an seemingly uninterested second half. 

 

I know this is super long, but I also want to mention that after this match, I believe Shaff's role is cemented as a pacy, athletic, and dangerous winger for this team. He should be starting over Liam Millar in that formation.

I thought it was pretty apparent that Eustaquio was the de facto leader on the pitch, proactively speaking with the referee when necessary. Obviously we can't really walk back the Davies captaincy now and I'm sure he'll grow into the role.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

You are world-class at putting thoughts in the heads of fans (and other posters and coaches and players and agents and the tea lady probably) if you are trying make others think the way you do. 

 

I know we are all punchy from getting punched around yesterday but why would any Canadian adult care one iota what Feyenoords fans think of us.  We should be doing what is best for our national team, not worrying about their club side fans. 

 

Because they know the team he plays for inside out, obviously. They had a strong crosstown rival this season and Brym played no part in that, he's a peripheral filler piece. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Corazon said:

I think you’re making this a lot worse than it is.  And I get that you despise Brym and are upset about Corbeanu not getting the call, but I think what you’re saying is nonsense and there is completely no proof to suggest that the Dutch fans who came to watch their National program feel that way.  You’re suggesting that we are the laughing stock of Rotterdam and Dutch fans because we fielded a player from the 2nd best club from Rotterdam in the Eredivisie?  I don’t care if he was our worst player out there or not, I’m going to disagree completely with that statement.  Whether Brym deserved to play or not, this feels more like you’re building this story in your head to help reinforce your hate for the guy. 

Mistaken. Fans always judge a rival based on the kind of players they can field. Canada fans do it too, if you have a CONCACAF rival with players in a Caribbean league, or the CPL player who's 18th on a depth chart playing for Haiti or Bermuda, you automically read that situation. 

Canada put on a residual player from a Rotterdam club in Rotterdam, early, in attack, needing goals, replacing a guy at Inter Milan, and we lost respect. We became a nation with a few big names but no team of substance. 

Brym, Bair, Ugbo, Tani, Theo, who has the lowest strike rate?

[Brethers8]

Brym was always going to play in this game, he plays locally and has actually played in club games recently (as opposed to Theo).

We absolutely would not lose respect for subbing on a player who's made 32 appearances on the team who came 8th in the Eredivisie. Certainly no less than if we'd played a guy who couldn't break into the punching bag of La Liga. I really like Theo but he just hasn't earned a spot on the roster with his lack of playing time 

[Corazon]

43 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Mistaken. Fans always judge a rival based on the kind of players they can field. Canada fans do it too, if you have a CONCACAF rival with players in a Caribbean league, or the CPL player who's 18th on a depth chart playing for Haiti or Bermuda, you automically read that situation. 

Canada put on a residual player from a Rotterdam club in Rotterdam, early, in attack, needing goals, replacing a guy at Inter Milan, and we lost respect. We became a nation with a few big names but no team of substance. 

Brym, Bair, Ugbo, Tani, Theo, who has the lowest strike rate?

Didn’t Brym score twice against Feyernoord Rotterdam just this past season, winning the man of the match as well?  I highly doubt they’re now calling us a laughing stock because of the fact we played a player that put two past them in a game just this past season.  A extra time goal by Feyernoord saved them from a loss.

Edited June 7 by Corazon

[phil03]

Honestly, I feel the depiction of Brym in recent posts hasn't been really fair here. And that come from a guy who didn't think he should have been called until fairly recently.

He plays for a mid-table team in probably the sixth league in the world and is a fairly frequently used sub who scored five goals this year. To say we are above that is hubris, there is no two way about it IMO. 

He would have a place in the vast majority of national teams across the world. Hell, he'd be a starter no question asked in a pretty clear majority of national teams and there is millions upon millions of Soccer fans all over the planet who'd kill to have a striker pool where he is just a substitute like we have!

Edited June 8 by phil03

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I think your "great chance" was an okay chance because he actually missed all the guys in the box.

He outran Johnson to the ball, got it into a more dangerous area even if the guys in the box had to do some work with it, before they had that final shot.  The final shot was more than an "okay" chance.

He also outhustled, outpositioned, then out muscled Johnston earlier in the 26th minute, starting another attacking sequence that was curtailed by an offsides.

I agree about how our game plan was doing well in the first half and it generated a couple of turnovers and opportunities that came to not in that corner early on, but apart from Buchanan going offsides on the long ball and David's mis-touch (though Van de Ven made up for his original poor positioning with very good recovery pace and pressure), we didn't pose an uncomfortable attacking threat on that side.  The Millar mis-hit from Davies' cutback and the Larin miss from Kone's run to the byline and pass were on the left.  We had a sequence where David cleverly turned Blind at the halfway line, drew a foul, and we generated some stuff from the subsequent free kickand  then the corner.  And that was about as umcomfortable as it got for their back line until later in the second half (Shaffelburg's cross just missing Hoillet at the far post stands out).

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Romania, a team that will be in the Euros, only managing a 0-0 draw with 202nd ranked Liechtenstein is probably the most embarrassing friendly result today.

Gibraltar drew Wales by the same score. 

As I take it, if we'd scored and made them nervous, better. If we'd kept our shape, also. If Marsch could do his experiments and pay his dues--lord knows why he has them, at this stage, seems like someone elses library fines he's covering--and we could still show well, then better. You are drawing Netherlands there m. 50 and you might want to think about a result and not just 2026, I mean, multi-task anyone?

[Kadenge]

2 hours ago, SoccMan said:

So Iceland just defeats England in a friendly at Wembley 1-0 , while we got our asses handed to us against the Netherlands yesterday lol. When will we ever have a result like this against a major power ? Moreover, looking at that Iceland roster in terms of where their players play we definitely have more guys playing at higher levels. We have the Copa America coming up no more excuses we need to get something out of that tournament it’s time !

Perhaps we should try to pass Panama in the rankings first or win a 2 game playoff vs Jamaica? Yes we have some high end talent but our program has devolved since the WC. It took 9 months to hire a permanent coach, the CMNT played 4 games in the past 12 months and our federation has no money. Marsch  had 3/5 days with the players prior to playing a #7 ranked team. Some really serious structural issues that are slowly getting sorted out. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, I feel the depiction of Brym in recent posts hasn't been really fair here. And that come from a guy who didn't think he should have been called until fairly recently.

He plays for a mid-table team in probably the sixth league in the world and is a fairly frequently used sub who scored five goals this year. To say we are above that is hubris, there is no two way about it IMO. 

He would have a place in the vast majority of national teams across the world. Hell, he'd be a starter no question ask in a pretty clear majority of national teams and there is millions upon millions of Soccer fans all over the planet who'd kill to have a striker pool where he is just a substitute like we have!

But he's never had a good game for Canada, has always been off a bit, mostly, and off quite a bit, for many moments, has had a piss poor attitude in many critical games. He drags his ass, trots, is disengaged, and does not read games. He tried some tricky-flicky dribbles to get out of a fix a few times, on the right-side line, that were just childish.

As i said above, that was Marsch deciding he had to pay Herdman's library fines because Mauro thought it'd be a nice thing to do.

He never showed a single thing to make you think he deserves any minutes. Even Fraser when he was in 2nd tier Belgium, he gave us something, in the past we've seen more of Unattached players even. Shaff gives us something, yesterday it was misplaced but he's not an entire discard. Brym is. He was the weakest attacking player we had and we played him.

Edited June 7 by Unnamed Trialist

[Corazon]

Deleted.  Arguing with myself over here.

Edited June 7 by Corazon

[phil03]

9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But he's never had a good game for Canada, has always been off a bit, mostly, and off quite a bit, for many moments, has had a piss poor attitude in many critical games. He drags his ass, trots, is disengaged, and does not read games. He tried some tricky-flicky dribbles to get out of a fix a few times, on the right-side line, that were just childish.

As i said above, that was Marsch deciding he had to pay Herdman's library fines because Mauro thought it'd be a nice thing to do.

He never showed a single thing to make you think he deserves any minutes. Even Fraser when he was in 2nd tier Belgium, he gave us something, in the past we've seen more of Unattached players even. Shaff gives us something, yesterday it was misplaced but he's not an entire discard. Brym is. He was the weakest attacking player we had and we played him.

I respectfully disagree. Overall I'd say his apperances for Canada have been fine for my money, not good by our standards mind you, but fine. 

If any player taking the pitch was tantamount to paying Herdman's fine I'd argue more for Zator (as stated elsewhere, clearly the one who shouldn't be back in my book) and Hoilet.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

48 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

He outran Johnson to the ball, got it into a more dangerous area even if the guys in the box had to do some work with it, before they had that final shot.  The final shot was more than an "okay" chance.

He also outhustled, outpositioned, then out muscled Johnston earlier in the 26th minute, starting another attacking sequence that was curtailed by an offsides.

I agree about how our game plan was doing well in the first half and it generated a couple of turnovers and opportunities that came to not in that corner early on, but apart from Buchanan going offsides on the long ball and David's mis-touch (though Van de Ven made up for his original poor positioning with very good recovery pace and pressure), we didn't pose an uncomfortable attacking threat on that side.  The Millar mis-hit from Davies' cutback and the Larin miss from Kone's run to the byline and pass were on the left.  We had a sequence where David cleverly turned Blind at the halfway line, drew a foul, and we generated some stuff from the subsequent free kickand  then the corner.  And that was about as umcomfortable as it got for their back line until later in the second half (Shaffelburg's cross just missing Hoillet at the far post stands out).

 

Yeah still an okay chance, for me.

VdV put it way behind the intended man and behind another.  (If it was meant to be played to feet for possession it was way too hard). It looked like a centre back's cross. All that allowed Cornelius to face up the eventual shot and the shooter to be closed down from two directions - Bombito and Eustaquio.  It would have needed to have been a really nice first time curling/placed effort or a mistake for it to get through by the time it was taken.

Put the ball on target/in front even, none of our side has time to react - instead the shooter now had 4 bodies to move the ball around whilst coming onto it at pace.  The difference between an okay and a great chance, to me.

The chance from the free kick right after was as dangerous.

Van de Ven had the beating of Johnston all half, but I think we were semi okay with that as a lesser of 2 evils.  As the score to that point bore out.

You just made part of my point about us making the beginning of some dangerous moment on that side, I think. It wasn't the only place but it was one of the places we made them slightly uncomfortable. Beginnings of the system which meant we left the specific wide player alone.

 

But I'm not sure what the original overall point was.

I just thought that it was by design, and that part worked for that period of time. 

It was telling that they attacked less there when options came open in the second.

Edited June 7 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, El Diego said:

I thought it was pretty apparent that Eustaquio was the de facto leader on the pitch, proactively speaking with the referee when necessary. Obviously we can't really walk back the Davies captaincy now and I'm sure he'll grow into the role.

Marsch was doing that a bit post game, essentially saying the captaincy is not set.

[74 Whitecap]

8 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I take the opposite view of the bolded, we were in the game and created chances via it when we did it effectively.  

It fell apart after the subs and especially after they scored.  

But to let top ten teams have uncontested possession and runs at you in your own half is just as dangerous, while neutering our best players.

My view is that we can't high press *for 90 minutes*. And I don't agree that letting teams take runs at you is just as dangerous (defensively). Many teams of limited talent have proven that sitting back can be very effective if executed well, for example Iceland just today vs. England, with 32% possession, 1-0 victory. Also I don't agree that this neuters our best players, our biggest strength vs. the top teams is the pure speed of our team, and this can be lethal on counter-attack when there is plenty of space to play into. It is possible that chasing and pressing non-stop will neuter our best players by leaving them too wiped out to take advantage of openings.

Not against pressing at all, and we should definitely have it in our tactical toolkit to be able to apply a press when wanted/needed, but I have yet to see any evidence in can be effective for us - over 90 minutes - vs. top opposition. Happy (desperately hoping) to be proven wrong, and to be fair, still very early with a new coach, so too soon to really judge, but I am skeptical.

Perhaps the most impressive team outing over the past few years for me was the 2-0 win vs. the US in Hamilton, but we seem determined not to repeat that mistake. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Because they know the team he plays for inside out, obviously. They had a strong crosstown rival this season and Brym played no part in that, he's a peripheral filler piece. 

Yep 

Our national manager should be worrying about what the fans of a Dutch club side think, maybe scouring their forums?

Is Didier Deschamps furiously reading CF Montreal threads in case Richie Laryea or Osorio get some minutes, since "they know the team [they] play[s] for inside out"?

Or maybe Domenico Tedesco was really worried about my opinion because his Belgium just played Montenegro and their keeper plays for Millwall, a rival team I know inside out?

Do you actually think through how silly some of things you make up are, when you get going on one of your runs?

Edited June 8 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

53 minutes ago, 74 Whitecap said:

My view is that we can't high press *for 90 minutes*. And I don't agree that letting teams take runs at you is just as dangerous (defensively). Many teams of limited talent have proven that sitting back can be very effective if executed well, for example Iceland just today vs. England, with 32% possession, 1-0 victory. Also I don't agree that this neuters our best players, our biggest strength vs. the top teams is the pure speed of our team, and this can be lethal on counter-attack when there is plenty of space to play into. It is possible that chasing and pressing non-stop will neuter our best players by leaving them too wiped out to take advantage of openings.

Not against pressing at all, and we should definitely have it in our tactical toolkit to be able to apply a press when wanted/needed, but I have yet to see any evidence in can be effective for us - over 90 minutes - vs. top opposition. Happy (desperately hoping) to be proven wrong, and to be fair, still very early with a new coach, so too soon to really judge, but I am skeptical.

Perhaps the most impressive team outing over the past few years for me was the 2-0 win vs. the US in Hamilton, but we seem determined not to repeat that mistake. 

1) If you think gegenpress is pressing for 90 minutes, you don't actually know the system.

2) We aren't of "limited talent", we have a lot of talent in certain areas.  Defending against sustained attacks is not one of them though.  

3) We aren't going to train to be a bunker team like Iceland have been for years, thank goodness, it is a huge waste of a generation. If Davies spends 65% of the game defending in his own final third, you are neutering him, sorry. David is a lot things, an out and out speedster or a target man - vital for your counter attack - are not them.

4) "I have yet to see any evidence in can be effective for us" - it is actally a pointless less observation because we aren't trying to get to a place where we press for 90' .  For instance, we didn't press for the whole first half of that game and were effective in decent chunks against a great team. 

 

Edit: I should add that my post was in response to someone saying that we can't press a good team. And said nothing about 90' minutes.

So maybe we actually agree on the fundamental point.

 

Edited June 8 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Watchmen]

6 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I definitely think there's a conditioning issue and that this was a Herdman weakness and is a Concacaf weakness. MLS (and Liga MX) players are not as fit as players from top European leagues. 

I disagree in it being a CONCACAF issue/weakness.  If anything, it was generally how a lot of the teams (especially the US) got by: they weren't more talented, they just outworked others.  MLS players were selected for their physical attributes (he can run fast, run longer, he's taller, etc) than for actual talent, and it's the only reason the US advanced in a number of World Cups.  And I think about how the domestic Jamaican players are, and it's similar.  Darren Mattocks at the Whitecaps "ran fast" while doing not much else, for instance.