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Match Thread: Voyageurs Cup - Quarter-Finals - Leg 2 - CF Montreal v Forge - May 22, 2024

narduch
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gator
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A great win by Forge despite what issues Montreal has going on and what lineup they put out, we had to play a LB at striker! Forge were hanging by a thread at times and players were visibly gassed fro

Kent
Kent

So you don't know what the rule is, but you know the intent of the rule? And the intent of the rule is what exactly? Don't make people wait around? I'm thinking the intent would be to be safe first an

phil03
phil03

I mean, poor Wheeler... He wouldn't know who to biased toward!

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phil03 Experienced

phil03

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3 minutes ago, Cblake said:

What's a bigger upset Forge over Montreal or St. Laurent over HFX or TSS over Valour last year?

The later two. I don't believe HFX and Valour had the kind of injuries and internal issues MTL has right now.

Id also say that on pure stats the identity of the clubs in the tournament help boost the ods of a CPL team beating an MLS one compared to the ods of a LeagueOne team beating a CPL one. There is only an handful of league one clubs and most of the time they'll be down and out in the first round. MLS clubs, on the other hands, are given way more chances to slip on their way to the final if that make sense?

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jonovision Grand Master

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9 minutes ago, phil03 said:

The later two. I don't believe HFX and Valour had the kind of injuries and internal issues MTL has right now.

Id also say that on pure stats the identity of the clubs in the tournament help boost the ods of a CPL team beating an MLS one compared to the ods of a LeagueOne team beating a CPL one. There is only an handful of league one clubs and most of the time they'll be down and out in the first round. MLS clubs, on the other hands, are given way more chances to slip on their way to the final if that make sense?

In addition, the lesser CPL teams (Halifax 2024 and Valour every year are good examples) are not meaningfully more talented than the League 1 sides that make it into the cup. 

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gator Grand Master

gator

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A great win by Forge despite what issues Montreal has going on and what lineup they put out, we had to play a LB at striker! Forge were hanging by a thread at times and players were visibly gassed from all of the defending, goalkeeping made a big difference tonight I am so happy for our club, this is a major accomplishment, our participation in Concacaf and previous V's Cup matches served the team well in an environment like this!

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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1 hour ago, phil03 said:

We were at it for what? An hour and a half? Refs do get leeway but I am simply not buying that letting it go for that long isn't going against the intent of the rule, so to speak, and I'd argue refs are supposed to try to follow that, not just the letter.

So you don't know what the rule is, but you know the intent of the rule? And the intent of the rule is what exactly? Don't make people wait around? I'm thinking the intent would be to be safe first and foremost, and secondarily to get the game done in a timely manner. If you can get the game finished safely and fairly on the day the game was scheduled, do that.

When I was a kid/teenager for sure I had some rain delays more than an hour long. I didn't keep records to know exactly what the longest would have been, but I am sure it happened. Sometimes you wait around for a while and it doesn't let up so the game is cancelled or postponed. Sometimes you wait around and it looks like it's clearing up so you stick with it.

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gator Grand Master

gator

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27 minutes ago, phil03 said:

The later two. I don't believe HFX and Valour had the kind of injuries and internal issues MTL has right now.

Id also say that on pure stats the identity of the clubs in the tournament help boost the ods of a CPL team beating an MLS one compared to the ods of a LeagueOne team beating a CPL one. There is only an handful of league one clubs and most of the time they'll be down and out in the first round. MLS clubs, on the other hands, are given way more chances to slip on their way to the final if that make sense?

I would emphatically say it is Forge over CF Montreal tonight for the simple fact it is in a two leg tie with the higher ranked team hosting the 2nd leg! 

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phil03 Experienced

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1 minute ago, Kent said:

So you don't know what the rule is, but you know the intent of the rule? And the intent of the rule is what exactly? Don't make people wait around? I'm thinking the intent would be to be safe first and foremost, and secondarily to get the game done in a timely manner. If you can get the game finished safely and fairly on the day the game was scheduled, do that.

When I was a kid/teenager for sure I had some rain delays more than an hour long. I didn't keep records to know exactly what the longest would have been, but I am sure it happened. Sometimes you wait around for a while and it doesn't let up so the game is cancelled or postponed. Sometimes you wait around and it looks like it's clearing up so you stick with it.

I confess that I do not know if there is guideline for exact time but I am rather sure that the intent is to wait less then an hour and a half, as I have yet to see any game stopping for that long before tonight, whether as a fan, player of ref.

If anyone has the exact language of the rule and it support your take I'll willing eat my words.

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phil03 Experienced

phil03

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10 minutes ago, gator said:

I would emphatically say it is Forge over CF Montreal tonight for the simple fact it is in a two leg tie with the higher ranked team hosting the 2nd leg! 

You are entitled to your opinion, but personally I think the current circumstances for MTL should weight into it more when it come to the greatest upset in history, altough Forge obviously still deserve all the credit. As stated in a previous post, its definitely an upset but I am in no way shocked by the result with what's going on.

In any case, the same was true for Cavalry vs Whitecaps in 2019 so I'll say its either that or MTL winning the whole thing as a non-MLS club in 2008 for biggest upset in the Voyageurs Cup's history.

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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4 minutes ago, gator said:

I would emphatically say it is Forge over CF Montreal tonight for the simple fact it is in a two leg tie with the higher ranked team hosting the 2nd leg! 

It wasn't in Cblake's original list of options, but that is the same as when Cavalry beat the Whitecaps in 2019.

image.png.5d627eb4bfa1263be9dce2b55aa1260a.png

All great upsets though. I wonder how many more of these have to happen though for the MLS team's fanbases to take the games seriously and show up in even average numbers.

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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10 minutes ago, phil03 said:

I confess that I do not know if there is guideline for exact time but I am rather sure that the intent is to wait less then an hour and a half, as I have yet to see any game stopping for that long before tonight, whether as a fan, player of ref.

If anyone has the exact language of the rule and it support your take I'll willing eat my words.

I remembered this game back in 2015 was a long delay. This article states it was 206 minutes, so almost 3.5 hours.

https://www.torontofc.ca/news/remembering-strange-match-vs-fc-dallas

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phil03 Experienced

phil03

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6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I'm just thankful the Whitecaps are no longer the only MLS team to be knocked out by a CPL side.

TFC did lost the first CanChamp despite being the only MLS team, and some games in the second edition of the tournament as well so now all MLS clubs have fallen prey to an upset at some point.

Obviously it doesn't feel good on my end right now but IMO its a good thing in the long run. These are things that happen, especially when the higher level club is otherwise struggling, and it isn't the end of the world. Nobody dies, the three biggest clubs are still the three biggest clubs, the ones who pulled the upset are welcome to well deserved rejoicing and the sun will still rise tomorrow.

Its what having an actual soccer scene with an actual cup tournaments looks like.

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Mihairokov Mentor

Mihairokov

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4 minutes ago, phil03 said:

The rules might have changes since then but fair enough. Still pretty ridiculous IMO.

Generally there's two things for officials:
1) Has the storm passed? Is there still potential for adverse weather? (It had and there wasn't)
2) Is the field playable? (It was.)

I haven't gone into the vault to look at Concacaf matches from the past few seasons which have been delayed by weather, of which there is no shortage, but i'm sure delays of between one-to-two hours is the norm. As long as this match restarted before 11 or so I had no real issues with the delay and restart.

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narduch Grand Master

narduch

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7 hours ago, phil03 said:

I confess that I do not know if there is guideline for exact time but I am rather sure that the intent is to wait less then an hour and a half, as I have yet to see any game stopping for that long before tonight, whether as a fan, player of ref.

If anyone has the exact language of the rule and it support your take I'll willing eat my words.

Here's an example of a 3 hour rain delay in MLS.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dallasnews.com/sports/fc-dallas/2020/08/17/after-enduring-a-record-breaking-rain-delay-spanning-over-three-hours-fc-dallas-reaches-scoreless-draw-with-nashville/%3foutputType=amp

 

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Canuckia Veteran

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7 hours ago, phil03 said:

I confess that I do not know if there is guideline for exact time but I am rather sure that the intent is to wait less then an hour and a half, as I have yet to see any game stopping for that long before tonight, whether as a fan, player of ref.

If anyone has the exact language of the rule and it support your take I'll willing eat my words.

You will be hard pressed to find anything stating that the intent is to wait less than an hour and a half.

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narduch Grand Master

narduch

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3 hours ago, Canuckia said:

You will be hard pressed to find anything stating that the intent is to wait less than an hour and a half.

I tried finding the CSA rules for this but couldn't.

I did find the MLS rules. And there is nothing about the length of the delay. Mostly that the decision is by the prerogative of MLS people.

Also MLS doesn't replay the game. They restart from the point that it stopped.

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