Jesse Marsch: CanMNT manager

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

42 minutes ago, costarg said:

One of my concerns with the Marsch intense pressing system is how will we manage this at Copa and WC 2026 which are in June/July.  It's one thing to do this in Stoke on a Wednesday night in January, but a whole different challenge in North American summers.  Just isn't doable regardless of how many track athletes you have.

Nice use of Stoke by the way.

I saw a meme the other day on something English "Stop complaining, there are people right now living in Stoke."

On the point, it is valid. Marsch was rigid/stubborn/principled/forward-thinking (depending on your biases) enough yesterday to make subs to look at  players in a real game situation.  It was often like for like with worse players. So to me it was to try and get players ready for early subs to keep the energy up.

5 subs will be key.

Edited June 7 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[PastPros]

34 minutes ago, costarg said:

One of my concerns with the Marsch intense pressing system is how will we manage this at Copa and WC 2026 which are in June/July.  It's one thing to do this in Stoke on a Wednesday night in January, but a whole different challenge in North American summers.  Just isn't doable regardless of how many track athletes you have.

And you rely on the player's clubs to prepare them physically, too.

It's not like you can just build up your cardio fitness to the level required when you're with the national team.

[GasPed]

10 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

At least how I see  the terms used, they are fundamentally different in how you engage in the ball. And trying to do both exposes huge gaps.

You would never "bunker" against a good team in a gegenpress system, it allows them the time and space to pick you apart. We especially don't have defence to sustain that.

If you "bunker" with your defenders and press with your attackers, you open up massive space in midfield that are easy to pass into, often making any press you try just a waste of energy. 

There is a German term fundamental to Marsch's type systems and that's  alle gemeinsam - just means "all together". He or Rangrick or someone said that you have to know that when you press everybody is with you.  Which is the opposite of some people bunkering.

If you wanted to completely change your system - counterpress or bunker - on any given play, how does the team know which you are doing in the moment? 

And it adds another level of complexity to training because you would need train in both.

West Ham's whole team save the target man knew that when they lost ball, they were getting back into shape, that is fundamentally different from what you try in a gegenpress.

 

Again I don't think we have what takes to be a consistent counter attacking team against good sides.  They will eventually break what we have defensively down.  Davies' strength for instance has never been as a final third defender even when he played his best for Bayern. We just make too many mistakes. Not something someone like Japan (your example) does as much.

 

We certainly need to have a plan when we have the ball. We are still panicking with it but the first step in Marsch's plans, I would guess, is what we do as unified unit without it.

I think we're on the same page - as in, you don't press/counterpress and bunker simultaneously - and a press/counterpress only works when everyone is doing it together.  And it requires great coaching and techniques to ensure coordination - e.g. the "6 second rule" for a counterpress - i.e. lose the ball, flood the zone for 6 seconds and if you don't win it, fall back.  High pressing is even more technical - you need to know what patterns the opposition uses to play from the back, recognize when/how to attack it, and then initiate your attack together.

The way I view it is that pressing/counterpressing is what you do when the opponent has the ball in their half, bunkering/countering is what you do when they have it in your half.  

I do use Japan as an example because they've employed both tactics very effectively.  For instance v. Spain in WC 2022 - they scored two goals, one off an extremely well-coordinated high press, and one off a long ball-initiated counter - and they won the game despite spending the majority of it bunkering in their own half (17% possession, 228 passes vs. Spain's 1058).  An extreme example to be sure, but I think we could learn a lot from it - and in particular how to play teams who want the ball and are very comfortable playing with it. 

And I totally agree - drilling this approach into a national team will definitely tax Marsch and our players.  But it has been done before.

 

[GasPed]

17 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Nice use of Stoke by the way.

I saw a meme the other day on something English "Stop complaining, there are people right now living in Stoke."

On the point, it is valid. Marsch was rigid/stubborn/principled/forward-thinking (depending on your biases) enough yesterday to make subs to look at  players in a real game situation.  It was often like for like with worse players. So to me it was to try and get players ready for early subs to keep the energy up.

5 subs will be key.

Agreed again (not on Stoke, on the subs 😉).  Not to beat the Japan drum too much, but again in WC 2022 they subbed freely, like for like, to maintain fresh legs.  Both their decisive goals against Spain and Germany were scored by subs in the 2nd half.

[Sal333]

24 minutes ago, PastPros said:

And you rely on the player's clubs to prepare them physically, too.

It's not like you can just build up your cardio fitness to the level required when you're with the national team.

BINGO!

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

49 minutes ago, PastPros said:

And you rely on the player's clubs to prepare them physically, too.

It's not like you can just build up your cardio fitness to the level required when you're with the national team.

24 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

BINGO!

I'm honestly suprised that this is still trotted out. 

Bielsa, the legendary murderball, run the players to death, manager, was a national team manager when he really made his international mark.  It has been done many time before and he, at least in terms of winning games, was actually more successful as a national manager. 

And he is starting very well again. 

Having very high fitness as part of your gameplan is not unachievable with a national team, is the point. 

 

Our base level is MLS starters at this point, the players had better be fit. (Although it is an argument for picking a player that is playing over a player who might not be match fit.) 

Edited June 7 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

One of my concerns with the Marsch intense pressing system is how will we manage this at Copa and WC 2026 which are in June/July.  It's one thing to do this in Stoke on a Wednesday night in January, but a whole different challenge in North American summers.  Just isn't doable regardless of how many track athletes you have.

Should also point out that most effective pressing teams nowadays are pretty strategic about how/when they do it.  They like to do it early when they have fresh legs and the opponent may not be settled, or around triggers/traps they may have scouted (e.g. GK can't pass to his left, so take away his preferred outlets, force him left.  Etc.).

[ECW]

A good case can be made that we suit gegenpressing: a good amount of young sprinters who have, already in place, a “brotherhood”; we are Canadians who do “all for one”, the team over the individual, very well; we want to beat the more skilled opposition ranked above us; we’re lacking clear and good players who suit the ten and the six.
 

I don’t have much to add to the questions and answers already posted which have to do with the frantic tempo required: can we sustain it with MLS conditioning?, can we do it in the southern U.S. and Central America in summer?, do we need it to beat the lesser sides in our region? will it help us be more successful against Mexico and the U.S.? 

I think that my main response to it all is aesthetic (if you will allow me that term). In contemporary art and contemporary football (can we call it futebol-arte?) there is not much talk of beauty (and maybe not much beauty, either), and the gegenpress to me is ugly to watch. Yes, of course, it is not without its own interest and intricacy, but of what I’ve seen of Marsch’s version of it, it attempts to reduce the depth and complexity of what the opposition does, and it fails to mine the depths of what we are capable of (which is a hell of a lot more than we used to be capable of). So, whether we win or lose, complexity is reduced. Which to some is good but to me often becomes uninteresting. 

Maybe that has to do with a certain rigidity applied to what can be a supple game. In a time in which the classic ten has been eclipsed, I expect some high pressing, at least. But too, hybrid versions, interesting adjustments, are more compelling to me than an ‘everyone run to the ball at once and, in effect, as much as possible’ philosophy. 

If we want to discuss politics (as some posters have) I don’t think I want to get too much into the ‘rah rah MLS branded American leading the Canadians’ aspect except to say that we are used to being colonized by England and the U.S. and, one way or the other, we tend to like it. And that there is something genuine (if ingenuous) about Marsch. But I would say it’s pretty tough to disengage the obvious use made of gegenpressing by the energy drink company (who our manager has done most of his footballing for). Rarely has a style of a game been so solidly applied to a mass (and unhealthy) commercial product. As Marsch puts it, his system should be a way of life. 

I will, of course, be watching the next match with great interest. It should be too early to tell if this system will work for us in terms of results, but it should be telling as to what we can expect (as the first match was).

So far, other than the overall question, I found David’s role in the first match pretty interesting and wonder what we will do with our (no longer) wingbacks given that Davies and Layrea have at times been our most effective players.

Edited June 7 by ECW

[An Observer]

7 hours ago, GasPed said:

I think we're on the same page - as in, you don't press/counterpress and bunker simultaneously - and a press/counterpress only works when everyone is doing it together.  And it requires great coaching and techniques to ensure coordination - e.g. the "6 second rule" for a counterpress - i.e. lose the ball, flood the zone for 6 seconds and if you don't win it, fall back.  High pressing is even more technical - you need to know what patterns the opposition uses to play from the back, recognize when/how to attack it, and then initiate your attack together.

The way I view it is that pressing/counterpressing is what you do when the opponent has the ball in their half, bunkering/countering is what you do when they have it in your half.  

I do use Japan as an example because they've employed both tactics very effectively.  For instance v. Spain in WC 2022 - they scored two goals, one off an extremely well-coordinated high press, and one off a long ball-initiated counter - and they won the game despite spending the majority of it bunkering in their own half (17% possession, 228 passes vs. Spain's 1058).  An extreme example to be sure, but I think we could learn a lot from it - and in particular how to play teams who want the ball and are very comfortable playing with it. 

And I totally agree - drilling this approach into a national team will definitely tax Marsch and our players.  But it has been done before.

 

I think Japan is a great example for us to study.  I really liked the way they played in WC 2022 and I think we have the players to do that and possibly even excel more than them at it. 

I like that we want to press and it showed in the first 25 minutes how effective that can be against a top side. But you can’t do that all match so you need to bunker some of the time, suck them into your half, and then counter once you win the ball. The reality is we have the right players to do that. 

[nolando]

4 hours ago, ECW said:

A good case can be made that we suit gegenpressing: a good amount of young sprinters who have, already in place, a “brotherhood”; we are Canadians who do “all for one”, the team over the individual, very well; we want to beat the more skilled opposition ranked above us; we’re lacking clear and good players who suit the ten and the six.
 

I don’t have much to add to the questions and answers already posted which have to do with the frantic tempo required: can we sustain it with MLS conditioning?, can we do it in the southern U.S. and Central America in summer?, do we need it to beat the lesser sides in our region? will it help us be more successful against Mexico and the U.S.? 

I think that my main response to it all is aesthetic (if you will allow me that term). In contemporary art and contemporary football (can we call it futebol-arte?) there is not much talk of beauty (and maybe not much beauty, either), and the gegenpress to me is ugly to watch. Yes, of course, it is not without its own interest and intricacy, but of what I’ve seen of Marsch’s version of it, it attempts to reduce the depth and complexity of what the opposition does, and it fails to mine the depths of what we are capable of (which is a hell of a lot more than we used to be capable of). So, whether we win or lose, complexity is reduced. Which to some is good but to me often becomes uninteresting. 

Maybe that has to do with a certain rigidity applied to what can be a supple game. In a time in which the classic ten has been eclipsed, I expect some high pressing, at least. But too, hybrid versions, interesting adjustments, are more compelling to me than an ‘everyone run to the ball at once and, in effect, as much as possible’ philosophy. 

If we want to discuss politics (as some posters have) I don’t think I want to get too much into the ‘rah rah MLS branded American leading the Canadians’ aspect except to say that we are used to being colonized by England and the U.S. and, one way or the other, we tend to like it. And that there is something genuine (if ingenuous) about Marsch. But I would say it’s pretty tough to disengage the obvious use made of gegenpressing by the energy drink company (who our manager has done most of his footballing for). Rarely has a style of a game been so solidly applied to a mass (and unhealthy) commercial product. As Marsch puts it, his system should be a way of life. 

I will, of course, be watching the next match with great interest. It should be too early to tell if this system will work for us in terms of results, but it should be telling as to what we can expect (as the first match was).

So far, other than the overall question, I found David’s role in the first match pretty interesting and wonder what we will do with our (no longer) wingbacks given that Davies and Layrea have at times been our most effective players.

You just don't see enough neatly-separated, double-spaced paragraphs on soccer forums these days. I salute you, fellow poster.

[CanadaFan123]

9 hours ago, An Observer said:

I think Japan is a great example for us to study.  I really liked the way they played in WC 2022 and I think we have the players to do that and possibly even excel more than them at it. 

I like that we want to press and it showed in the first 25 minutes how effective that can be against a top side. But you can’t do that all match so you need to bunker some of the time, suck them into your half, and then counter once you win the ball. The reality is we have the right players to do that. 

Absolutely agree. If we can mix the gegenpressing style with the styles we played away with in WCQ against USA and Mexico away then that should maximize our chances. In those matches Davies played at LM - I think it’s clear that we absolutely need him further up in matches where we’re expected to absorb pressure. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

14 hours ago, An Observer said:

I think Japan is a great example for us to study.  I really liked the way they played in WC 2022 and I think we have the players to do that and possibly even excel more than them at it. 

I like that we want to press and it showed in the first 25 minutes how effective that can be against a top side. But you can’t do that all match so you need to bunker some of the time, suck them into your half, and then counter once you win the ball. The reality is we have the right players to do that. 

May I respectfully disagree?

We don't have Japan's defence, and when you bunker and give the ball  away as much as we still do, it's suicidal. 3 of the 4 goals Thursday came when our defence was well set and in shape, we just made errors.  You are asking us to put ourselves in those situations more often.

 

We don't have the right players to bunker quite the opposite at this point. For instance, if you watch Bombito in MLS - he is amazing at aggressively getting to the ball, in the air, recovery runs, tackles etc.  He still has a poor pass and poor positional decisions in him.  You are highlighting his weaknesses if you make him a final third defender the majority of the time. Davies is actually similar if we play him as a defender.

 

The defensive point of the system Marsch is trying to implement is to keep the ball away from your own third and in theirs - where we have our best players,  I think.

 

I would also say that switching  between fundamentally different systems on the fly adds a massive training burden and it is really difficult to communicate in the moment.  For instance, you need to decide split second whether you are getting into defensive shape or winning the ball, both require the whole team to do it most effectively.  If people aren't on the same page for a second, you open up massive gaps.

 

Edited June 8 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Sal333]

On 6/7/2024 at 1:09 PM, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I'm honestly suprised that this is still trotted out. 

Bielsa, the legendary murderball, run the players to death, manager, was a national team manager when he really made his international mark.  It has been done many time before and he, at least in terms of winning games, was actually more successful as a national manager. 

And he is starting very well again. 

Having very high fitness as part of your gameplan is not unachievable with a national team, is the point. 

 

Our base level is MLS starters at this point, the players had better be fit. (Although it is an argument for picking a player that is playing over a player who might not be match fit.) 

Yeah, keep listening to your beliefs and denying your lying eyes.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

4 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Yeah, keep listening to your beliefs and denying your lying eyes.

Your earnestness and deep personal investment in his failure has become one of the more entertaining aspects of this forum.

[Sal333]

5 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Your earnestness and deep personal investment in his failure has become one of the more entertaining aspects of this forum.

As is your determination to back a losing horse.

[GasPed]

7 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

May I respectfully disagree?

We don't have Japan's defence, and when you bunker and give the ball  away as much as we still do, it's suicidal. 3 of the 4 goals Thursday came when our defence was well set and in shape, we just made errors.  You are asking us to put ourselves in those situations more often.

 

We don't have the right players to bunker quite the opposite at this point. For instance, if you watch Bombito in MLS - he is amazing at aggressively getting to the ball, in the air, recovery runs, tackles etc.  He still has a poor pass and poor positional decisions in him.  You are highlighting his weaknesses if you make him a final third defender the majority of the time. Davies is actually similar if we play him as a defender.

 

The defensive point of the system Marsch is trying to implement is to keep the ball away from your own third and in theirs - where we have our best players,  I think.

 

I would also say that switching  between fundamentally different systems on the fly adds a massive training burden and it is really difficult to communicate in the moment.  For instance, you need to decide split second whether you are getting into defensive shape or winning the ball, both require the whole team to do it most effectively.  If people aren't on the same page for a second, you open up massive gaps.

 

Even though it appears you and I are disagreeing on tactics, I really don't think we're that far off.  I think we can be a very effective pressing/counter-pressing team, as do you, and I think we should train hard to do exactly that tactic, as do you.   I also think (as you do) that playing a high line is perfect for our athletic defenders.  But regardless, I also think it is inevitable that quality teams will pass through/around/over our press - they will get into our half, and that's where we will end up playing a significant portion of the 90.

And yes, right now, we are not a good defensive team in our own half - our structure is haphazard, we don't seem to have anyone organizing the lines, our marking is somewhere between rudimentary and non-existent, and our communication/chemistry is poor.  I mean we're pretty much sitting ducks for any quality team to break us down.  But a lot of that can be improved with training/coaching.  And I'm convinced it needs to be if we want to have any success against the good teams.

And, the other benefit is that if we do get better at it, we have the athletes to create some great chances off the counter.  I mean, when I think about WCQ, and how many great goals we scored off counters or transitional play - I'm hard pressed to think of any goals we scored off patient buildup (despite Herdman's desires to play that way).  If we actually drill that a bit (e.g. Jonny David sits high at halfway, and as soon as we win the ball he runs 5 yards towards our goal to receive a pass that he redirects to Davies/Tajon/Liam/Shaff in full flight coming the other way), I think we would be scary.  Again, just my 2c.

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, GasPed said:

Even though it appears you and I are disagreeing on tactics, I really don't think we're that far off.  I think we can be a very effective pressing/counter-pressing team, as do you, and I think we should train hard to do exactly that tactic, as do you.   I also think (as you do) that playing a high line is perfect for our athletic defenders.  But regardless, I also think it is inevitable that quality teams will pass through/around/over our press - they will get into our half, and that's where we will end up playing a significant portion of the 90.

And yes, right now, we are not a good defensive team in our own half - our structure is haphazard, we don't seem to have anyone organizing the lines, our marking is somewhere between rudimentary and non-existent, and our communication/chemistry is poor.  I mean we're pretty much sitting ducks for any quality team to break us down.  But a lot of that can be improved with training/coaching.  And I'm convinced it needs to be if we want to have any success against the good teams.

And, the other benefit is that if we do get better at it, we have the athletes to create some great chances off the counter.  I mean, when I think about WCQ, and how many great goals we scored off counters or transitional play - I'm hard pressed to think of any goals we scored off patient buildup (despite Herdman's desires to play that way).  If we actually drill that a bit (e.g. Jonny David sits high at halfway, and as soon as we win the ball he runs 5 yards towards our goal to receive a pass that he redirects to Davies/Tajon/Liam/Shaff in full flight coming the other way), I think we would be scary.  Again, just my 2c.

 

Thanks.

We can maybe add things as time goes on and hopefully being relatively young, the players can improve together and build some continuity.

I think backing my post was the idea that we probably need to focus on one approach, at least for a while.  It is not going be without errors, especially in these games, but having one clear vision for a bit should build something.  Part of what attracted Marsch was that we do have players to play his style, if people try to actually understand it.  He was honest in the presser today, saying the players are a long way from playing it but there were good steps in a short time. 

The quick goals that our players can and have scored, are supposed to come in Marsch's system but not as counter attacks. Something he says a lot is that he does not press to win possesion back, he presses to score goals. He wants a lot of tap-ins. Part of that is a terms thing, if you create a turnover up high, and in a pass or two you score, is that a counter-attack goal.  Kind of but, it is a very different approach to how my club team achieved some success with counter-attacking football where you spending a lot of time in your half without the ball and then try to break quickly.   Again there is success to be had there but less so for our group of players, in my opinion.  

[frattinator]

51 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Something he says a lot is that he does not press to win possesion back, he presses to score goals. He wants a lot of tap-ins. Part of that is a terms thing, if you create a turnover up high, and in a pass or two you score, is that a counter-attack goal.  Kind of but, it is a very different approach to how my club team achieved some success with counter-attacking football where you spending a lot of time in your half without the ball and then try to break quickly.   Again there is success to be had there but less so for our group of players, in my opinion.  

A bit tangential to this point is what happens when the press is triggered. It's not just the initial defender (though that player is important and must deny time and space to the attacker), but the players nearby that swarm and creates a "net" (his term) to force a turnover. In his ideal system, you need both aspects to be successful, as if the initial defender isn't there, then the attacker can easily turn and exploit that space, but if the net isn't there, then the attacker can pass out of the press with quick combinations and go downfield with speed. We kind of saw in the first 30 mins in the Netherlands game when our nets worked, and in the second half when our nets didn't. 

For people who are interested in hearing about his tactics from his own words 

 

Edited June 8 by frattinator

[lamptern]

Build a system of pressing swarm “net” is only 50% of success to win a game, the higher demand is how to shift the “net” dynamically to rebuild the defence when opponent is good enough to get around with it, just like what Dutch did.

I’m not tactic expert, but I guess it’s a tall order for individual defenders to implement the second 50%

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

"Our tactical discipline was very good... It was a big step forward. But there's still so much work to be done. It's one day, a friendly against a very good opponent, a draw not a win...But there's confidence in the group right now."

 

[TGAA_Star]

More than redeemed himself to me in my eyes

[GasPed]

On 6/8/2024 at 4:28 PM, GasPed said:

And yes, right now, we are not a good defensive team in our own half - our structure is haphazard, we don't seem to have anyone organizing the lines, our marking is somewhere between rudimentary and non-existent, and our communication/chemistry is poor.  I mean we're pretty much sitting ducks for any quality team to break us down.  But a lot of that can be improved with training/coaching.  And I'm convinced it needs to be if we want to have any success against the good teams.

All I'm going to say is what a difference a day makes.  Big improvement in almost every way - and it happened way quicker than I thought it would.  Yes, still lots of work to do on our countermoves, and on implementing the Marsch press/gegenpress - but still credit where credit is due - well done, Coach Marsch!

[Joe MacCarthy]

A week with Canada and Jesse Marsch: No days off, hunting in packs and what it means to be Canadian
Tim Spiers nytimes.com/athletic June 10, 2024

[Watchmen]

56 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

A week with Canada and Jesse Marsch: No days off, hunting in packs and what it means to be Canadian
Tim Spiers nytimes.com/athletic June 10, 2024

I've noticed an increase recently in the number of CMNT articles hitting the Athletic. I realize some of that is that the Copa is approaching, but it's still nice to see and Canada still could have been overlooked here. But between the Marsch hiring and the friendlies, they've been doing a good job.

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I've noticed an increase recently in the number of CMNT articles hitting the Athletic. I realize some of that is that the Copa is approaching, but it's still nice to see and Canada still could have been overlooked here. But between the Marsch hiring and the friendlies, they've been doing a good job.

My annoyance is walking into local cafes and everyone is marketing the Euro, so I mention Canada is playing in Copa at the same time and they're like "huh?".