Jesse Marsch: CanMNT manager

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

I also mentioned a dislike of coaches that can't bend to their rosters a while back.  However there are two different things to this.  1- Is formation vs system.  It's possible to play a specific system yet be flexible in formation and Marsch has shown this flexibility.  2- It really helps that his system fundamentally does suit our squad.  On paper this "should" be a good fit.   Any Ozil/Pirlo types will not play under Marsch, I guess its a good thing we don't have that player. 

I was way more concerned about Herdman adopting the Costanza approach to soccer, "just do the opposite". 

• "Croatia dominates the midfield?  Lets not play midfielders and play on the wings!"  
• "Our strength is counter-attacking with our speed?  Lets learn possession football!"
• "We don't have strong CB's?  Lets play with 3!"

From what I've seen Marsch's approach is a lot more logical and pragmatic, yet very taxing and intense.

I agree with all of that, except what you probably expect.  And I still think it misunderstands what the realities of football are sometimes.

Let me give you another example that supports your general point, not from Herdman but from Biello

"We have lots of good box strikers and want to get the best out of them - Let's put 3 on the field together at once."

Sometimes it's not about playing the best 11, sometimes its about playing a system that works first.  If your centre backs aren't good enough, sometimes you tweek the system to help them, even it means 9th-11th player on the pitch, in terms of quality, maybe isn't as good as he could be. Or with my example you put a midfielder in there that isn't as "good" as the striker you replaced. 

Another example, West Ham's best centre backs are too slow for the Premier League.  The result has been we have to set up very deep generally and have to absorb tons of pressure.  I have liked when we have used a quicker centre back, that makes some mistakes but allows the rest of team to do what they do much better - the midfield is not sitting on the toes of the backline.  Maybe a preference.  

 

As far as lineups for next month - next month!

The way he talks about Davies, not sure I see him thinking about him as a leftback.  In reference to David and Davies specifically he said something to effect that he wants them to "express" themselves, "enjoy" themselves and help them make themselves even better. Also used the word "fearless."  Maybe that changes in cold light of training when he sees what he has for leftbacks. 

I would love the idea of Kennedy, Cornelius (maybe switch those two?) Bombito and Johnston as far as pace and even set pieces go. Again questions about who organises, especially in front a keeper that has not been 100% solid. 

 

Edited May 15 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Joe MacCarthy]

 

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So imagine if we had reciprocity.

It is totally unjust, it is accepted by the CSA, and accepted by the clubs. All the CSA has to do is insist on reciprocity. It is disgraceful and the CSA has dropped the bucket on it since day 1.

I think my answer is: not as many as people think. Not zero, but i don't think we'd suddenly see a massive influx anymore if full reciprocity was granted. I think MLS teams will now just take a Canadian player and not worry that he's Canadian and may or may not count as "domestic" (since the academy rules now grant much more leeway on this).

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

32 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

 

Interesting watch.

Obviously some bias, being a friend of Marsch and an over the top personality a lot of the time but some good perspectives. 

I can see where he is coming from trying to talk, let alone coach football as a North American in England sometimes. 

And his views on our centrebacks, having been one. 

Edited May 15 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[jhoops__]

33 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

 

This was really good… 

[jhoops__]

1 hour ago, TGAA_Star said:

But now that we have Marsch in as our manager, who should make our 26 man squad for Copa America?

 

- GK (3)- Maxime Crepeau, Dayne St Clair, Jonathan Sirois

 

 

- CB (9)- Alistair Johnston, Moise Bombito, Joel Waterman, Derek Cornelius, Kamal Miller, Luc de Fougerolles, Sam Adekugbe, Lukas McNaughton, Scott Kennedy

 

 

- RWB (2)- Tajon Buchanan, Ali Ahmed

 

 

- LWB (1)- Alphonso Davies

 

 

- CM (4)- Stephen Eustaquio, Sam Piette, Ismael Kone, Mathieu Choiniere 

 

 

- AM (2)- Jacob Shaffelburg, Liam Millar

 

 

- CF (5)- Jonathan David, Ike Ugbo, Theo Bair, Cyle Larin and Jacen Russell Rowe

 

 

Assuming it is 26 man squads, then I definitely hope Marsch chooses these players

Doubt he’ll take 5 strikers…I could see Corbeanu and Nelson in the mix.

[narduch]

Has Corbeanu done enough?

Maybe Hoilett reappears?

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, Shway said:

Apologist theory.

 Remember this was mentioned because it was stated that MLS is our top league, and someone rightfully replied basically with "how if Canadians aren't considered domestic."

 It's still a big deal because when you take the Canadian teams out of that 42 list, it probably drops drastically.

Counting up the number on the tracking list on this forum, there's 18 that have played for non-Canadian MLS sides (and more signed that have yet to play), putting Canada 5th. Still a strong number.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I agree with all of that, except what you probably expect.  And I still think it misunderstands what the realities of football are sometimes.

Let me give you another example that supports your general point, not from Herdman but from Biello

"We have lots of good box strikers and want to get the best out of them - Let's put 3 on the field together at once."

Sometimes it's not about playing the best 11, sometimes its about playing a system that works first.

 

Except that the 3 strikers were not our best 11.  No one will claim Ugbo at any time, hot streak or not, is one of our best 11 players.  Biello's thinking was more strikers = more goals.  Which is just as erroneous as more CB's = less goals against.

He assumed Trinidad would bunker and not attack, so he just went all out offence and all it did was create traffic jams and our guys were tripping over each other, no options, no space.  It kind of worked in the sense that we won 2-0, but it looked horrible, didn't play to our strengths and was just a dumb move.  

I feel Marsch will bring an identity and a real system  We'll see continuity.  We'll be able to laminate a playbook and philosophy.  Even the occasional cap guys will know exactly what to expect and what is expected, even if they only play once a year.  Things we haven't been able to say in a very very long time.  Just that in itself will be great, we won't see Cornelius, Ugbo, Piette, Choiniere, etc...  struggle to understand what is going on because they missed some important innovation or information at the last camp.

[jhoops__]

20 minutes ago, narduch said:

Has Corbeanu done enough?

Maybe Hoilett reappears?

Not sure Theo has done enough to be honest but his potential is still pretty high and we’ll see if Jesse wants to integrate young hopefuls…

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

 Which is just as erroneous as more CB's = less goals against.

And yet many managers smarter than you and I adopt that strategy and it works for them. 

You do see that in world football right?

[narduch]

23 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

Not sure Theo has done enough to be honest but his potential is still pretty high and we’ll see if Jesse wants to integrate young hopefuls…

Of course now he's starting today. Maybe he will make it more interesting.

[gigi riva]

As far as Marsh being a American / Foriegner. To me its not a big deal  Look at the mighty England  with all there so called Football superiorty  in the last   30 years they have had a Swedish guy managing  Sven Goran Erckson, and also a Italian [ One of Englands Greatest rivals]  Fabio Capello  at the helm

Edited May 15 by gigi riva

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Except that the 3 strikers were not our best 11.  No one will claim Ugbo at any time, hot streak or not, is one of our best 11 players.  Biello's thinking was more strikers = more goals.  Which is just as erroneous as more CB's = less goals against.

He assumed Trinidad would bunker and not attack, so he just went all out offence and all it did was create traffic jams and our guys were tripping over each other, no options, no space.  It kind of worked in the sense that we won 2-0, but it looked horrible, didn't play to our strengths and was just a dumb move.  

I feel Marsch will bring an identity and a real system  We'll see continuity.  We'll be able to laminate a playbook and philosophy.  Even the occasional cap guys will know exactly what to expect and what is expected, even if they only play once a year.  Things we haven't been able to say in a very very long time.  Just that in itself will be great, we won't see Cornelius, Ugbo, Piette, Choiniere, etc...  struggle to understand what is going on because they missed some important innovation or information at the last camp.

First off, I dont think biello's lineup is a viable solution longterm but... 

Don't you think the traffic jam was caused by Trinadads bunker?  

We never played 3 strikers against trinadad. We played 2 strikers and david at cam. Some people say he was not close enough to goal as a cam. Not sure why thats the reason its a jam and not T and T having 11 guys inside their own box. 

Yet, our 2 strikers combined for the first goal.  

Obviously there were issues with speed of play, combination plays, etc but thats also attributed to a lack of prep time, time spent together with a new coach, a lack of creative midfield options and a bunker by t and t.  

There is no way that playing a 4-3-3 fixes those issues.  

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

And yet many managers smarter than you and I adopt that strategy and it works for them. 

You do see that in world football right?

Yes, some managers do do that.  Just like Biello had 3 strikers hoping for more goals. 

It's causation and correlation.  It's a question of balance on the field, there are many different factors at play that impact results.  Sometimes a DM is more valuable than another CB.  Quantity does not fix an issue with quality.

[BearcatSA]

Playing poorly, losing badly in a match against a regional rival, then star core players being unhappy with the coaching staff:  those seem like an accumulation of things that could get a guy fired, no?

It's certainly a big plus for a manager to know that a WC place is secured but it is still a minefield to navigate.

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Just now, costarg said:

Quantity does not fix an issue with quality.

Of course it does. Quite often. Or the most talented clubs would never lose or be held.  

You were getting upset at the suggestion we play 2 strikers in upcoming matches.  The striker you would take off would be of better quality than the midfielder/whatever we would include. You can make a strong argument for increasing the quantity of more defensive players to make a system work.

[Bigandy]

26 man squad under marsch.  
Logic: Athleticism/pressing, 4 atb, WC focus

23 man squad:
3 -GK: Crepeau, sirios, St clair 
4- CB - Bombito, cornelius, miller, LDF 
4 -  FB - AJ, Ahmed, Davies, Laryea (if fit) 
5- CM - Kone, staq, oso, choiniere Piette
3 -Winger - millar, shaf, buchanan 
4 - St - David, larin, JRR, Bair/ugbo 

Additional 3: nelson/corbeanu, bair/ugbo, Pos/JKL/Waterman? 

My additional 3 needs a CB, FB and CM, but we just dont really have good options so I went with attacking guys and an extra CB. 

[kacbru]

Javier is not going to like this...

Un-prompted, my Argentinian friend Diego sent me a link announcing Marsch's hiring and he said "good coach, really impressive".

I said "But he's not rioplatnese!"  Diego said WTF?

[TGAA_Star]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

26 man squad under marsch.  
Logic: Athleticism/pressing, 4 atb, WC focus

23 man squad:
3 -GK: Crepeau, sirios, St clair 
4- CB - Bombito, cornelius, miller, LDF 
4 -  FB - AJ, Ahmed, Davies, Laryea (if fit) 
5- CM - Kone, staq, oso, choiniere Piette
3 -Winger - millar, shaf, buchanan 
4 - St - David, larin, JRR, Bair/ugbo 

Additional 3: nelson/corbeanu, bair/ugbo, Pos/JKL/Waterman? 

My additional 3 needs a CB, FB and CM, but we just dont really have good options so I went with attacking guys and an extra CB. 

Then my starting XI for Copa America would be 3-4-2-1

 

GK- Crepeau

LB- Adekugbe 

CB- Bombito

RB- Johnston

LM- Davies

CM- Eustaquio (captain)

CM- Kone

RM- Buchanan

LW- Shaffelburg (tournament debut)

RW- Bair (tournament debut)

ST- David

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

26 man squad under marsch.  
Logic: Athleticism/pressing, 4 atb, WC focus

23 man squad:
3 -GK: Crepeau, sirios, St clair 
4- CB - Bombito, cornelius, miller, LDF 
4 -  FB - AJ, Ahmed, Davies, Laryea (if fit) 
5- CM - Kone, staq, oso, choiniere Piette
3 -Winger - millar, shaf, buchanan 
4 - St - David, larin, JRR, Bair/ugbo 

Additional 3: nelson/corbeanu, bair/ugbo, Pos/JKL/Waterman? 

My additional 3 needs a CB, FB and CM, but we just dont really have good options so I went with attacking guys and an extra CB. 

- I'm leaning toward Kennedy, if can play through his next 2/3 league games and that helps give the options that my tea leaves, maybe Marsch's comments point to : Davies playing further up.  

- Interesting to see if LDF get anything in the friendlies, he is playing but its u21 ball at this point. 

- I mentioned somewhere Marsch played 3 at the back at Leipzig for almost half his matches there (at late as Dec '21). Not sure if he decided he was done with that or he just had a good set of centre backs, including Gvardiol.  

- Not sure we have 2 great or at least real #6s or a super athletic #10 for a 4231, but that's pretty much all he played at Leeds. 

My 2 cents so far.

 

[red card]

Marsch was on Sky's Monday Night Football a couple of months ago. Athletic article just today called it the best football show in the world particularly if you like tactics/analytics talk rather than about refs and player efforts.

He goes through the RB approach and his tactics at Leeds.

 

Edited May 16 by red card

[youllneverwalkalone]

That was interesting. They pay him a lot of respect, and interesting to hear about Soton and Leicester. I'm slowly feeling better about this...

 

 

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, red card said:

Marsch was on Sky's Monday Night Football a couple of months ago. Athletic article just today called it the best football show in the world particularly if you like tactics/analytics talk rather than than about refs and player efforts.

He goes through the RB approach and his tactics at Leeds.

 

Great watch for anyone who wants to know about his tactical philosophy. A few takeaways for me:

1. playing narrow does not mean no use of the wings, but rather that the wingers don't hug the touch line and its because he wants the team shape to be compact at all times when attacking and defending. He calls it the "net". The wingers cut into the box on attack

2. The CBs are going to be key and will need to press up high and stay compact with the mids. I don't see how Kamal Miller is going to work in this set up. The positive for Kamal is that he is aggressive and does like to push up, but doesn't have the recovery speed.

3. It's going to take some time for his tactical system to gel, but it does seem to favour our talented and quick forwards as well as our attack minded mids. The question is do we have the CBs to support his system. Clearly though, defending is a team approach in his system and every player will need to contribute defensively when "closing the net" and recovering /winning the ball back.

JH was fortunate that he had 4+ yrs to get the team ready for WCQ/WC and loads of games vs minnows in the circuitous route to the Octo to get his systems in place. Jesse is going to be thrown into the fire in game 1 vs the Netherlands. I'm excited and feel the players will be as well. The team has looked deflated since the WC. Not exhibiting the boundless energy and comradery they showed during WCQ. I think Jesse is going to get that mojo back and move it to the next level.

[costarg]

6 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Of course it does. Quite often. Or the most talented clubs would never lose or be held.  

No they're not, the most talented and successful clubs aren't playing 3 CB's to cover for their weak backline.  For example: When Italy and Belgium were playing their famed back 3 formations, they didn't lineup that way to cover a weakness, they played that way because they had dominant players that could also help dictate the play ahead of them as well.  It was strengthening the 11, not bringing the overall quality of the 11 down.  

6 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

You were getting upset at the suggestion we play 2 strikers in upcoming matches.  The striker you would take off would be of better quality than the midfielder/whatever we would include. You can make a strong argument for increasing the quantity of more defensive players to make a system work.

Nah, I've never gotten upset at anything on this site.  The closest would be frustration at having to type something out on a cell phone and fix typos and autocorrect instead of chatting about ideas over a beer.

I don't feel Larin is "better quality" than any of Choiniere, Ahmed, Piette or Osorio at the moment.  I'm still all in on shoring up the middle and playing 1 striker.

I will say the current LB issue is making me open to a back 3 for the next window.

Also not so against Borjan returning to help stabilize the net situation.