2024 CanPL attendance

[Mihairokov]

On 6/20/2024 at 10:54 AM, shermanator said:

Attendance for York vs Pacific: 844

Equivalent match last season was 1,013 - also their sixth home match, also on a Wednesday in late June. 

Their fifth home match of last season, in early June, was only 891, whereas this year the equivalent was 1,167, so they're actually ahead of last season by, like, fifty people for their June home matches, despite Wednesday's crowd.

2023 June 9 - 891
2023 June 21 - 1,013
2023 June avg. 952

2024 June 9 - 1,167
2024 June 19 - 844
2024 June avg. 1,006

They averaged 1,006 over two June matches in 2022, as well, so it's all a wash. 😜

[shermanator]

Attendance for Valour vs York: 2750

Attendance for Pacific vs Vancouver: 3255

[Mihairokov]

53 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Attendance for Valour vs York: 2750

Valour Equivalent matches (3rd home match)
2022: 2,699
2023: 2,775
2024: 2,750

Valour average through three matches
2022: 2,797
2023: 2,938
2024: 3,348

The big asterisk here is that their third home match is typically in May and not in late June, but given that this was a thursday home match before Canada Day long weekend I think the crowd was alright. The trend for the rest of the season is seeing whether or not there's turnout fatigue from squeezing 5.5 months of matches into 4.5 months.

Edited June 28 by Mihairokov

[masster]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

Attendance for Valour vs York: 2750

Attendance for Pacific vs Vancouver: 3255

I understand why they scheduled 2 Thursday night games to avoid the long weekend, but in the case of Pacific v Vancouver at least, it was the wrong decision. They made it so that any away fans who did make the trip, were forced to spend the night.

[Aird25]

10 minutes ago, masster said:

I understand why they scheduled 2 Thursday night games to avoid the long weekend, but in the case of Pacific v Vancouver at least, it was the wrong decision. They made it so that any away fans who did make the trip, were forced to spend the night.

After following Pacific for 5 years, I'm convinced there's no logic to the team's schedule 

[CDNFootballer]

Another great crowd in Ottawa, 5794 today vs Pfc.

[jonovision]

3770 for Valour vs Cavalry.

[shermanator]

 

[Kingston]

I know there are still a few unreported games but, at the half way mark of the season, I think we have enough data to see where we are at with attendance.

Halifax is over 6000 on the season and are the only capacity-constrained team in the league.  Having been fortunate enough to attend a game in person there this year, I can say it's a party even when they lose.  I hope they can put together a winning squad soon to reward these fans.  Once they start winning it's going to go from great to insane.

Forge and Ottawa are both just over 5000.  History says this should make them financially stable, especially when you throw in a few extra playoff/Canadian Championship/CONCACAF games.  Excellent.  My only disappointment here is that both teams are flat after a couple of seasons of sustained attendance growth.  I hope they can both keep improving year over year to get to Halifax numbers and beyond.

Cavalry, Valour, and Vancouver are all in the mid to high 3000s.  For Cavalry, this is down a noticeable amount.  I was hoping they'd keep going up and join the 5000 club.  For Valour and, especially, Vancouver, this is a big increase.  Great to see.  I was worried Vancouver would be York 2.0 and that Valour would languish.  All three still need to increase their attendance by a third, which will take effort.

Pacific is down to just below 3000 instead of being just above 3000 as they have been in recent years.  I don't want to quibble over a the difference of a couple of hundred fans, which could just be weather or a lot of home games close together.  The point is that they seem to have stalled at about 3000.  It's actually impressive for the size of the market but it's well below what history says is needed for long term viability.

York has new owners and the same crappy attendance.  They need to literally quadruple what they draw.  I was actually at York U this weekend for a track and field meet.  I peeked at the stadium and it seems serviceable but, holy cow, is that a terrible place to try to get to!  And there is exactly zero in the area for pre/post game activities.  Anyone trying to place a CPL venue should visit this site and then do exactly the opposite of what they've done.

[Big_M]

cavalry and pacific have bad location and york has bad location + bad marketing + a couple early history attempts to destroy their own fanbase with ridiculous ticket prices and kicking out supporters group

[Mihairokov]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

My only disappointment here is that both teams are flat after a couple of seasons of sustained attendance growth.

League crowds don't exist in a vaccuum. Forge's league numbers might be "flat" but they had 11K out versus TFC, 15K out versus CFM, and 11K out versus Chivas. 

I feel like a broken record but if these teams are "flat" in the league but getting big crowds out for cups then they're pretty much up if we were to theoretically spread those crowds around to their league matches. Cup matches are "bonus" matches if we're only looking at league matches for franchise sustainability.

Edited July 15 by Mihairokov

[narduch]

Personally think York's location would work if you fix the stadium (enclose it on all 4 sides and add amenities).

Its next to a Subway line, close to 2 major highways and has lots of parking.

Edited July 15 by narduch

[Kingston]

26 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

League crowds don't exist in a vaccuum. Forge's league numbers might be "flat" but they had 11K out versus TFC, 15K out versus CFM, and 11K out versus Chivas. 

I feel like a broken record but if these teams are "flat" in the league but getting big crowds out for cups then they're pretty much up if we were to theoretically spread those crowds around to their league matches. Cup matches are "bonus" matches if we're only looking at league matches for franchise sustainability.

Hence my point about Forge and Ottawa getting extra games for playoffs, Canadian Championship, and COMCACAF.  These are valuable games, no doubt, but they have to be viewed as bonus games because there's no guarantee you'll get them.  Sustainability has to come from dependable league attendance - and both Forge and Ottawa are doing fine there.

[shermanator]

Cavalry actually drew better in the first half of 2024 than they did in the first half of 2023 for CPL games. They've drawn 27165 over the first 7 games (averaging 3881) while they drew 26470 over the first 7 games (averaging 3781) in 2023.

With the dire football being played on the pitch, I would imagine they won't see the strong crowds that they had in the latter half of last season. This will be the first test where we see how loyal the fanbase really is; it's easy to mask problems when you're winning.

Edited July 15 by shermanator

[Mihairokov]

15 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Cavalry actually drew better in the first half of 2024 than they did in the first half of 2023 for CPL games. They've drawn 27165 over the first 7 games (averaging 3881) while they drew 26470 over the first 7 games (averaging 3781) in 2023.

They also hosted two Canadian Championship matches (1.9K and 4.0K) versus the none they hosted last season. More dates + more crowd.

Edited July 15 by Mihairokov

[Kent]

Toronto FC this season is averaging 25k fans per game. CF Montreal is averagine 19k fans per game. Montreal has been eliminated and Toronto FC is losing 2-1 after one leg against Forge, who is at the moment in 3rd place in the CPL. It would be great if all it took was an "a-ha" moment for fans in places like Hamilton (Forge in 3rd), Toronto (York United in 2nd) and Ottawa (Atletico in 1st) to realize their teams aren't so far off the level of MLS teams, and those teams are a big enough deal to draw 19k to 25k per game. Forge and Ottawa are good enough to entertain crowds over 10k per game, and York United since the manager change at least has been good enough to be packing their stadium. We could even extend it further. Cavalry tied the Whitecaps over 2 legs, and the Whitecaps are averaging 28k (not sure what they would be at if you remove the Inter Miami game), and Cavalry is the 6th place team in the CPL this season. So Cavalry, Pacific, and Vancouver FC fans could make the argument that their teams aren't so far off of the Whitecaps this season. Although Pacific did just lose at home to the Whitecaps, but it was a well contested game.

Of course it's not that simple though. The realistic best case scenario is slow growth as opposed to a sudden boom.

[Kingston]

^  I’m optimistic Forge and Ottawa will continue to grow.  They’ve both proven they can draw over 10 000 for event games so we know the potential fans are there.   It’s a matter of shifting the baseline higher so that eventually hopefully regular season games are 10 000 and event games are sellouts.   But that will take time and the development of a culture of fans for the teams.  We need the teams to settle into their cities’ psyches and a group of fans to grow up with going to soccer games being just a normal thing like going to a Ticats or a Senators game.

Still, I’m delighted that we now have three teams above 5000 and progress in some other markets.  

[jonovision]

CPL teams need to start working on other parts of the revenue equation. As an example, Marco Bustos transferred to IFK Varnamo, a team in the Swedish top flight. Their average attendances over the past three seasons are 3380, 2717, and 1492 (current season in progress), which compares with some of the worst supported teams in CPL. Yet they pay for a squad of players triple the value of Forge (the highest valued CPL side per transfermarkt).

Similar comparisons to be made for Victor Loturi's Ross County.

Some of our past and present European based national teamers have been playing in front of CPL-sized crowds (Theo Bair at Motherwell, Scott Kennedy at Wolfsberger AC are a couple of examples)

Edited July 16 by jonovision

[Colonel Green]

46 minutes ago, jonovision said:

CPL teams need to start working on other parts of the revenue equation. As an example, Marco Bustos transferred to IFK Varnamo, a team in the Swedish top flight. Their average attendances over the past three seasons are 3380, 2717, and 1492 (current season in progress), which compares with some of the worst supported teams in CPL. Yet they pay for a squad of players triple the value of Forge (the highest valued CPL side per transfermarkt).

Similar comparisons to be made for Victor Loturi's Ross County.

Some of our past and present European based national teamers have been playing in front of CPL-sized crowds (Theo Bair at Motherwell, Scott Kennedy at Wolfsberger AC are a couple of examples)

That really comes down to the sponsorships and media deals that come from being in a top league in a country where soccer is the top sport. The CPL is realistically going to be mostly about the gate for the foreseeable future.

[phil03]

8 hours ago, Kingston said:

I know there are still a few unreported games but, at the half way mark of the season, I think we have enough data to see where we are at with attendance.

Halifax is over 6000 on the season and are the only capacity-constrained team in the league.  Having been fortunate enough to attend a game in person there this year, I can say it's a party even when they lose.  I hope they can put together a winning squad soon to reward these fans.  Once they start winning it's going to go from great to insane.

Forge and Ottawa are both just over 5000.  History says this should make them financially stable, especially when you throw in a few extra playoff/Canadian Championship/CONCACAF games.  Excellent.  My only disappointment here is that both teams are flat after a couple of seasons of sustained attendance growth.  I hope they can both keep improving year over year to get to Halifax numbers and beyond.

Cavalry, Valour, and Vancouver are all in the mid to high 3000s.  For Cavalry, this is down a noticeable amount.  I was hoping they'd keep going up and join the 5000 club.  For Valour and, especially, Vancouver, this is a big increase.  Great to see.  I was worried Vancouver would be York 2.0 and that Valour would languish.  All three still need to increase their attendance by a third, which will take effort.

Pacific is down to just below 3000 instead of being just above 3000 as they have been in recent years.  I don't want to quibble over a the difference of a couple of hundred fans, which could just be weather or a lot of home games close together.  The point is that they seem to have stalled at about 3000.  It's actually impressive for the size of the market but it's well below what history says is needed for long term viability.

York has new owners and the same crappy attendance.  They need to literally quadruple what they draw.  I was actually at York U this weekend for a track and field meet.  I peeked at the stadium and it seems serviceable but, holy cow, is that a terrible place to try to get to!  And there is exactly zero in the area for pre/post game activities.  Anyone trying to place a CPL venue should visit this site and then do exactly the opposite of what they've done.

ATO and to a lesser degree Forge have been consistently pushing upward after a crappy beginning of the season due to the weather. Unless October is truly horrendous weather-wise I am cautiously optimistic that we will have a healthy upgrade there. The same could be said about Cavalry, although a 5K average might be too much to hope for at this stage, but as someone else has said: we have yet to see how their bad performance will impact attendance.

I am repeating myself but I do think we need clarity about York United. I am not advocating for them to move but I think we need to know:

a) Is there a plan to fix things and if yes what is?

b) How long are we willing to wait to see whether it works?

c) How much money beside the owners' personal investment are we willing to sink in it?

5 hours ago, Kent said:

Toronto FC this season is averaging 25k fans per game. CF Montreal is averagine 19k fans per game. Montreal has been eliminated and Toronto FC is losing 2-1 after one leg against Forge, who is at the moment in 3rd place in the CPL. It would be great if all it took was an "a-ha" moment for fans in places like Hamilton (Forge in 3rd), Toronto (York United in 2nd) and Ottawa (Atletico in 1st) to realize their teams aren't so far off the level of MLS teams, and those teams are a big enough deal to draw 19k to 25k per game. Forge and Ottawa are good enough to entertain crowds over 10k per game, and York United since the manager change at least has been good enough to be packing their stadium. We could even extend it further. Cavalry tied the Whitecaps over 2 legs, and the Whitecaps are averaging 28k (not sure what they would be at if you remove the Inter Miami game), and Cavalry is the 6th place team in the CPL this season. So Cavalry, Pacific, and Vancouver FC fans could make the argument that their teams aren't so far off of the Whitecaps this season. Although Pacific did just lose at home to the Whitecaps, but it was a well contested game.

Of course it's not that simple though. The realistic best case scenario is slow growth as opposed to a sudden boom.

I do think that's reading a bit too much into Cupsets, especially considering at least TFC and the Impact have gone through some pretty bad turmoil around those cup games, but that is beyond the subject of this thread. CPL teams are very much capable of pulling off cupsets against MLS oppositions in the right circumstances and that is already enough.

The one key caveat I'd add is that the size of its stadium mainly limits MTL's. If and when they find a way to expand the stadium (I am cautiously optimistic since the current obstacle is Mayor Plante pushing her luck in negociations and she is likely to get slaughtered is she runs again next year) its quite plausible MTL will become the best attended Soccer team in Canada by quite a gap.

50 minutes ago, jonovision said:

Some of our past and present European based national teamers have been playing in front of CPL-sized crowds (Theo Bair at Motherwell, Scott Kennedy at Wolfsberger AC are a couple of examples)

While that is true these clubs have also drastically lower travel costs then us so they can reinvest more in their wage bills. IMO the main lesson for the CPL is that expansion and the formation of conference is key, as it would allow us to at least staunch the bleeding in term of travel costs.

[Kent]

17 hours ago, phil03 said:

I do think that's reading a bit too much into Cupsets, especially considering at least TFC and the Impact have gone through some pretty bad turmoil around those cup games, but that is beyond the subject of this thread. CPL teams are very much capable of pulling off cupsets against MLS oppositions in the right circumstances and that is already enough.

Absolutely. I am definitely using some selective data here. In one moment I am suggesting that Cavalry is about as good as Vancouver Whitecaps because they tied them on aggregate, but saying Vancouver is better than Cavalry because of their regular season standing, despite the fact that Vancouver FC lost to Cavalry in the Canadian Championship as well. But the point is just that the CPL teams aren't so bad that it isn't worth the time of fans in their cities. They are reasonably close in quality to the big city MLS teams, and the big city MLS teams seem to be worth the money despite the tickets being more expensive, and there being more sporting options in those cities

[Colonel Green]

17 hours ago, phil03 said:

I am repeating myself but I do think we need clarity about York United. I am not advocating for them to move but I think we need to know:

a) Is there a plan to fix things and if yes what is?

b) How long are we willing to wait to see whether it works?

c) How much money beside the owners' personal investment are we willing to sink in it?

Unless the owners are total dilettantes they have to have bought that team in the anticipation of making major changes, because its current incarnation is unsalvageable.

[Kingston]

17 hours ago, phil03 said:

I am repeating myself but I do think we need clarity about York United. I am not advocating for them to move but I think we need to know:

a) Is there a plan to fix things and if yes what is?

b) How long are we willing to wait to see whether it works?

c) How much money beside the owners' personal investment are we willing to sink in it?

a)  I have to assume so.  It's not like the new owners didn't know what they were buying.

b)  It doesn't really matter how long we, as fans, are willing to wait.  It matters how long the owners are willing to wait.

c)  We, as fans, presumably won't be sinking anything, unless you consider those who purchase York tickets to be sinking their money into the team.

[Big_M]

pasquels wont be able to turn it around concerning attendance at york lions...two of their six announced attendances this year were under 1k and york only had three games under 1k all season last year...and the seventh this year which was against hfx wasnt announced but looked pretty empty too...theyre probably looking at places like kelowna and trying to see with cpl if they can move their franchise agreement there instead of losing tons of money at york lions

[masster]

18 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

That really comes down to the sponsorships and media deals that come from being in a top league in a country where soccer is the top sport. The CPL is realistically going to be mostly about the gate for the foreseeable future.

Not meaning to restart an old argument...but if Canada's 3 largest clubs weren't in a different league, the CPL would have better sponsorship and media deals to support better squad values that @jonovision was talking about.