June 6th friendly v Netherlands

[TGAA_Star]

2 hours ago, Mihairokov said:

Truthfully if we're carrying Borjan and Cavallini and Osorio and Hoilett into 2026 we'll have bigger things to worry about than squad selection. If we don't plan on having them around for that tournament then they need to be phased out of the squad so younger, better players can replace them, and those younger players need experience today so that they're better in 2026. I would far, far prefer that we lose matches with players like Koné and Ahmed on the field than the former players.

Yeah trial by fire because we definitely need to usher in a next generation of Canadian footballers on this national team

[PegCityCam]

This is so awesome! My mom was born and raised in "Holland" - that's what she calls it - and I've been privileged enough to visit a few times. My opa fought in the war and fortunately survived to tell the story. I grew up cheering for the Dutch with my mom and I credit her for getting and keeping me interested in a sport which, growing up, I had always considered second to hockey and basketball. Definitely going to watch this one with her.

Edited March 8 by PegCityCam

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

 Vitoria could retire before copa but hes currently within the top 2 Right centerback options which gives him a spot in the squad. Therefore theres no guarantee on any of your examples. 

I know we're talked about this before, but this is a wild take.  Nothing recently says Vitoria is a top 2 right centerback right now.  This statement is based on nostalgia.

Today, Vitoria plays for the worst defensive team in Portugal.  They're in last place and his defense has 7 more goals against than the second worst defense.  Saying Portugal is a strong league is null, because only 2 MLS teams rank below Chaves in the only real comparison tool we have - Opta.

https://theanalyst.com/na/2023/09/who-are-the-best-football-team-in-the-world-opta-power-rankings/

Edited March 8 by costarg

[costarg]

5 hours ago, maplebanana said:

I am genetically 100% chinese, but I know exactly 4 chinese characters and 3 of those are my name, which I'm not 100% confident in either. 

Just don't tattoo it on your body until you confirm.

[costarg]

5 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Yeah, I will bet anyone here some nice cards that we see our A team in this match.  The only way we see anything that resembles real experimentation is if we fall to T&T and the stakes in June are minimal.  But barring that, it is one big final tune up in advance of a huge tournament - and we wouldn’t do anything other than use it as prep for our A team. Maybe a tweak here or there - but that’s it.  If there is still the Copa to prep for, we won’t see anything more extreme than Crepwau for Milan, and maybe one experimental attacking sub.  

From what I'm reading here, seems we can't assume to understand what we mean when we say A team. 

To me, A team is the guys playing regularly and successfully at the highest level right now.  This is who I would play vs T&T, Holland and at Copa.  Our experience and leaders would be David, Davies, Stache, Larin, Johnston, Crepeau, Laryea etc....

For a few it seems to mean, the guys that are the most familiar with each other and the system (WCQ 2021-2022). 

Finally, there is what Biello will do to get himself the job.  Which I think is somewhere in between, but definitely not the pure A team.  I feel he will be very conservative and even stick to Herdman tactics and methodology.  AKA 3D chess, playing guys out of position based on theory.

 

[SthMelbRed]

I can't be the only one who doesn't remember this 1994 friendly against the Dutch at Varsity, but 100% remember the friendly against Brazil at Commonwealth in the same month?

[Ruud]

33 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

I can't be the only one who doesn't remember this 1994 friendly against the Dutch at Varsity, but 100% remember the friendly against Brazil at Commonwealth in the same month?

Was there.  Remember it well with a bus group out of Stratford. First time with the travelling Dutch band and fans and seeing advertising for the Dutch television 
saw the Dutch at Foxboro before the 2002 World Cup versus the US as well. 

[SthMelbRed]

7 minutes ago, Ruud said:

Was there.  Remember it well with a bus group out of Stratford. First time with the travelling Dutch band and fans and seeing advertising for the Dutch television 
saw the Dutch at Foxboro before the 2002 World Cup versus the US as well. 

I'm guessing from your username that you're of Dutch heritage. I'm not, but I did go to the Netherlands for Euro 2000. I was at De Kuip for Holland's 6-1 quarterfinal demolition of Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro were the only remaining republics at that point). What a day/night that was!

For anybody travelling for the friendly, you'll love Feyenoord's stadium....a proper football ground!

Edited March 8 by SthMelbRed

[Mattd97]

14 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Well we can't keep kicking this can down the road. Eventually we need to find players who will make us better in 2026. That's what this is all about. Not now we have to beat Jamaica, not now we have to beat T&T, not now we have show well against Netherlands, not now we have to do well in Copa America. To me it just sounds like we're prolonging the inevitable looking for the perfect moment that will never come 

i agree, why would we try to win the games were playing.  seems like a silly tactic truthfully

Edited March 8 by Mattd97

[Kadenge]

21 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

i agree, why would we try to win the games were playing.  seems like a silly tactic truthfully

But we haven't won using the same group of vets either and keep going back to them hoping for a result...NL, Jamaica. I don't think anyone is saying we throw in the towel just make some changes with the squad.

[Mattd97]

33 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

But we haven't won using the same group of vets either and keep going back to them hoping for a result...NL, Jamaica. I don't think anyone is saying we throw in the towel just make some changes with the squad.

i mean he was literally saying the point isnt to win these games or do well at copa.  i dont agree with trotting out the same guys every time, but id like to play the guys most likely to win the game (esp as none of the games listed were even friendlies, and the friendly were talking about is a prep game for a major tournament - knock on wood - rather than some random exhibition)

[Bigandy]

11 hours ago, costarg said:

I know we're talked about this before, but this is a wild take.  Nothing recently says Vitoria is a top 2 right centerback right now.  This statement is based on nostalgia.

Today, Vitoria plays for the worst defensive team in Portugal.  They're in last place and his defense has 7 more goals against than the second worst defense.  Saying Portugal is a strong league is null, because only 2 MLS teams rank below Chaves in the only real comparison tool we have - Opta.

https://theanalyst.com/na/2023/09/who-are-the-best-football-team-in-the-world-opta-power-rankings/

RCB options
1. Vitoria
2. Mcnaughton - Playing well. Has some limitations. I'm not sure hes clearly #1. 
3. Waterman - He's solid but not top tier.... not sure you can convince me our back line is better with him.
4. Bombito - The argument is that hes only potential currently. Stylistically a great CB. Is he ready to be called #1 or #2.... IDK 
5. Zator - playing RB, never played at a high enough club level to suggest hes #1 or #2 for CMNT. Horrible experience in his caps for canada.
6. ZMG - same downsides as vitoria but without the bigger upside. 
7. LDF - Love the youngster but its bold to say hes clear of vitoria with one pro game. 
8.JKL - Same as LDF but at a lower level. 

Which of the other 8 options are #1 and #2. I assume its extremely clear which ones are #1 and #2 if its wild that vitoria is in the conversation. Don't get me wrong, I love LDF in the squad and want him capped now. If that means risking him next to cornleius/miller vs T and T or we risk not capping him, then I say we play him. After going with potential, I dont see anyone clearly a top RCB for us. 

There's also the consideration that the #2 rcb on the squad for a game vs T and T is highly unlikely to play (especially considering that we like to play a lcb at rcb). Therefore Vitoria could arguably be the 4th off the bench. His leadership is more valuable (as a bench guy) than any of the mls guys. Him and ZMG are also options in the dying minutes to help deal with crosses and corners if we are pinned back. So I dont really see 2 right centerbacks that are clearly above him in the pecking order. 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

RCB options
1. Vitoria
2. Mcnaughton - Playing well. Has some limitations. I'm not sure hes clearly #1. 
3. Waterman - He's solid but not top tier.... not sure you can convince me our back line is better with him.
4. Bombito - The argument is that hes only potential currently. Stylistically a great CB. Is he ready to be called #1 or #2.... IDK 
5. Zator - playing RB, never played at a high enough club level to suggest hes #1 or #2 for CMNT. Horrible experience in his caps for canada.
6. ZMG - same downsides as vitoria but without the bigger upside. 
7. LDF - Love the youngster but its bold to say hes clear of vitoria with one pro game. 
8.JKL - Same as LDF but at a lower level. 

Which of the other 8 options are #1 and #2. I assume its extremely clear which ones are #1 and #2 if its wild that vitoria is in the conversation. Don't get me wrong, I love LDF in the squad and want him capped now. If that means risking him next to cornleius/miller vs T and T or we risk not capping him, then I say we play him. After going with potential, I dont see anyone clearly a top RCB for us. 

I think you've pretty much nailed it here. I think 2-6 are more or less interchangable, but I do think McNaughton deserves to be at the higher end, and I could be talked into swapping ZMG and Zator, or even Bombito and Waterman.

The two youngsters at the tailend of the depth chart need to start getting minutes at club level soon. I know seeing the field at Fulham is a tough ask, but that's what it's going to take to shoot up our depth chart. Ditto with Knight-Label at Bristol City. 

Back to Bombito....so far he's doing what he needs to...which is locking down a starting spot at CB with Colorado. Given his upside, I see us prioritizing him over McNaughton. However if we are selecting purely based on form, I really think McNaugton is rightfully placed in your depth chart. 

[Sal333]

14 hours ago, costarg said:

For whatever it's worth, I spent 2 years in Amsterdam in 2007-2008, I was mid 30's.  Outside of the Dutch, my friends, coworkers and buddies were 3 South Africans, 2 Americans, a Greek and a Brit.  I was by far one of the quieter ones of the bunch.  Being Canadian seemed to get me a lot of attention and more invites into Dutch homes.  I felt singled out pretty regularly, never asked, but assumed it might've been due to our history.  Mind you, I generally feel Canadians are well appreciated in most countries.  So tough to say. 

Yeah, in '74 when I went to Europe Canadians were well liked but it was nothing like in the Netherlands.

Actually, the Canadian army was responsible for liberating the Italian region and province where my parents came from. Farley Mowat wrote a book about his military experience in that part of Italy. I forget the title.. Anyway, I was just another "Americano" to my relatives and the other Italians.

On a side note that year was also my first experience with travelers from other countries pasting the Canadian flag on their knapsacks and whatnot. On a train going through Spain, we ran into a couple of Japanese teenagers. They had the Canadian flag on their luggage. We assumed they were Canucks and spoke to them. At least tried to. They didn't know a word of English. I can remember asking myself why they would use our  flag. It only dawned on me later.

[Bigandy]

22 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think you've pretty much nailed it here. I think 2-6 are more or less interchangable, but I do think McNaughton deserves to be at the higher end, and I could be talked into swapping ZMG and Zator, or even Bombito and Waterman.

The two youngsters at the tailend of the depth chart need to start getting minutes at club level soon. I know seeing the field at Fulham is a tough ask, but that's what it's going to take to shoot up our depth chart. Ditto with Knight-Label at Bristol City. 

Back to Bombito....so far he's doing what he needs to...which is locking down a starting spot at CB with Colorado. Given his upside, I see us prioritizing him over McNaughton. However if we are selecting purely based on form, I really think McNaugton is rightfully placed in your depth chart. 

TBH this wasnt my actual depth chart in order but it kinda worked out that way. Your slight variances of bombito vs waterman is actually exactly how I feel. 
in order with considerations. 

Vet: Vitoria 

Current:
mcnaughton
bombito
waterman
ZMG
zator

Youngsters
1. LDF
2. JKL

Call ups for T and T - Vitoria, LDF, Bombito. 

We know cornelius is likely to play RCB. Bombito offers versatility across the back line and CDM. Vitoria experience and headers, LDF in for experience and to keep him away from england. 
 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

TBH this wasnt my actual depth chart in order but it kinda worked out that way. Your slight variances of bombito vs waterman is actually exactly how I feel. 
in order with considerations. 

Vet: Vitoria 

Current:
mcnaughton
bombito
waterman
ZMG
zator

Youngsters
1. LDF
2. JKL

Call ups for T and T - Vitoria, LDF, Bombito. 

We know cornelius is likely to play RCB. Bombito offers versatility across the back line and CDM. Vitoria experience and headers, LDF in for experience and to keep him away from england. 
 

That's how I see it too. I think we end up taking Bombito over McNaughton for the reasons we've talked about. Aside from the youth and upside compared to McNaughton, he can also play in multiple roles. Same goes for LDF. 

[Bigandy]

25 minutes ago, Obinna said:

That's how I see it too. I think we end up taking Bombito over McNaughton for the reasons we've talked about. Aside from the youth and upside compared to McNaughton, he can also play in multiple roles. Same goes for LDF. 

Do you think we take vitoria? If so, do you think vitorias call up would be on merit.

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Do you think we take vitoria? If so, do you think vitorias call up would be on merit.

Yes and partially is how I answer that. I haven't watched any of his club games this season, so I have to say partially, but he's playing regularly enough in the Primeria Liga and I presume he continues to be a threat on set pieces. Therefore, I don't have a strong reason to argue his call won't be on merit. Things seem to keep ticking along for the 37 year old. 

Edit - I guess the other reason why I say partially is because I suspect that even with a downturn in form he's certain to come back in, since he is a leader on this team and his NT performances haven't really dipped. 

Edited March 8 by Obinna

[costarg]

7 hours ago, Bigandy said:

RCB options
1. Vitoria
2. Mcnaughton - Playing well. Has some limitations. I'm not sure hes clearly #1. 
3. Waterman - He's solid but not top tier.... not sure you can convince me our back line is better with him.
4. Bombito - The argument is that hes only potential currently. Stylistically a great CB. Is he ready to be called #1 or #2.... IDK 
5. Zator - playing RB, never played at a high enough club level to suggest hes #1 or #2 for CMNT. Horrible experience in his caps for canada.
6. ZMG - same downsides as vitoria but without the bigger upside. 
7. LDF - Love the youngster but its bold to say hes clear of vitoria with one pro game. 
8.JKL - Same as LDF but at a lower level. 

Which of the other 8 options are #1 and #2. I assume its extremely clear which ones are #1 and #2 if its wild that vitoria is in the conversation. Don't get me wrong, I love LDF in the squad and want him capped now. If that means risking him next to cornleius/miller vs T and T or we risk not capping him, then I say we play him. After going with potential, I dont see anyone clearly a top RCB for us. 

There's also the consideration that the #2 rcb on the squad for a game vs T and T is highly unlikely to play (especially considering that we like to play a lcb at rcb). Therefore Vitoria could arguably be the 4th off the bench. His leadership is more valuable (as a bench guy) than any of the mls guys. Him and ZMG are also options in the dying minutes to help deal with crosses and corners if we are pinned back. So I dont really see 2 right centerbacks that are clearly above him in the pecking order. 

McNaughton, Waterman, Bombito, an out of position Cornelius, and even McGraw who did not look very solid last game are ahead of Vitoria for me.  I've watched them all play regularly since the end of last year, and not one of them produces those moments of panic when he's isolated and targeted.  There is no point in playing Vitoria unless it's the dying moments and trying to kill a game AND two other CB's are literally glued to him like crutches while he's out there.  Without even having seen Pos, I'd consider a coin flip between starting him and Vitoria.  I strongly encourage you to watch a Chaves match.  Don't need to listen to me, but at least watch him now, before making a decision based on 2020.

I swear, this is worse than Kodak.  Like a board room just sitting there discussing and staring at inevitable doom and doing absolutely nothing about it while time passes.

There is no point continuing with him, he is not part of the future.  With every minute he plays, he pushes back the development and progress of the next CB combo.  The time was 2 years ago, it's just ridiculous at this point.

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 hours ago, costarg said:

McNaughton, Waterman, Bombito, an out of position Cornelius, and even McGraw who did not look very solid last game are ahead of Vitoria for me.  I've watched them all play regularly since the end of last year, and not one of them produces those moments of panic when he's isolated and targeted.  There is no point in playing Vitoria unless it's the dying moments and trying to kill a game AND two other CB's are literally glued to him like crutches while he's out there.  Without even having seen Pos, I'd consider a coin flip between starting him and Vitoria.  I strongly encourage you to watch a Chaves match.  Don't need to listen to me, but at least watch him now, before making a decision based on 2020.

I swear, this is worse than Kodak.  Like a board room just sitting there discussing and staring at inevitable doom and doing absolutely nothing about it while time passes.

There is no point continuing with him, he is not part of the future.  With every minute he plays, he pushes back the development and progress of the next CB combo.  The time was 2 years ago, it's just ridiculous at this point.

You don't really expect us to watch Chaves, do you?

Seriously, I see they play Porto in early May, that could be one to watch.

The problem is it is a one-off, we have not seen the rest enough to be convinced, no one has stepped up in a Canada shirt, so we go with what we know. Perhaps it is radically unfair, as you say, and even delusional. We have so many guys in attacking roles showing prowess and taking a step up, but our CBs are all journeymen stuck in middling roles and none of them are elite. I think about Tomori all the time because you realise what that would do for our defense, it'd be amazing. But he won't be the guy, and we have yet to see who will. We don't even have anyone at the level of McKenna or DeVos, don't think and neither were anything close to top tier. 

 

[Bigandy]

On 3/8/2024 at 4:05 PM, costarg said:

McNaughton, Waterman, Bombito, an out of position Cornelius, and even McGraw who did not look very solid last game are ahead of Vitoria for me.  I've watched them all play regularly since the end of last year, and not one of them produces those moments of panic when he's isolated and targeted.  There is no point in playing Vitoria unless it's the dying moments and trying to kill a game AND two other CB's are literally glued to him like crutches while he's out there.  Without even having seen Pos, I'd consider a coin flip between starting him and Vitoria.  I strongly encourage you to watch a Chaves match.  Don't need to listen to me, but at least watch him now, before making a decision based on 2020.

I swear, this is worse than Kodak.  Like a board room just sitting there discussing and staring at inevitable doom and doing absolutely nothing about it while time passes.

There is no point continuing with him, he is not part of the future.  With every minute he plays, he pushes back the development and progress of the next CB combo.  The time was 2 years ago, it's just ridiculous at this point.

Merit: Mcgraw 100% has panic moments when isolated for speed. Watch the Gold cup. 
Waterman was horrible against bahrain. Yes we cant hold him to one performance but theres nothing to suggest hes clearly above vitoria.
Mcnaughton - Has played very well in a compact defense with the game in front of him. How would he do with a higher line against better opposition? 
Bombito - still raw but shows good signs. 
Cornelius - jamaicas second goal had cornelius isolated 1v1 and he was no where near gray(i think it was him). 
None are clearly ahead of him. All of them get isolated and create moments of panic. In fact, almost every single player in the world can have that. Its just strange to give them all unlimited credit and nothing to vitoria. 

Future planning: We all agree. Its time to transition. 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Merit: Mcgraw 100% has panic moments when isolated for speed. Watch the Gold cup. 
Waterman was horrible against bahrain. Yes we cant hold him to one performance but theres nothing to suggest hes clearly above vitoria.
Mcnaughton - Has played very well in a compact defense with the game in front of him. How would he do with a higher line against better opposition? 
Bombito - still raw but shows good signs. 
Cornelius - jamaicas second goal had cornelius isolated 1v1 and he was no where near gray(i think it was him). 
None are clearly ahead of him. All of them get isolated and create moments of panic. In fact, almost every single player in the world can have that. Its just strange to give them all unlimited credit and nothing to vitoria. 

Future planning: We all agree. Its time to transition. 

Yes, they're not perfect, we know this, it's not an ideal situation.  But once again, you're weighing everyone vs 2021 Vitoria.  You still haven't watched Vitoria play recently.  Game is today at 4:15 est.

Hutch was also still really strong up until 12 months before the WC, and we saw what happened there.  Time goes by quickly my friend.

[Obinna]

Just now, costarg said:

Yes, they're not perfect, we know this, it's not an ideal situation.  But once again, you're weighing everyone vs 2021 Vitoria.  You still haven't watched Vitoria play recently.  Game is today at 4:15 est.

Hutch was also still really strong up until 12 months before the WC, and we saw what happened there.  Time goes by quickly my friend.

I am inclined to believe you if you say Vitoria is declining rapidly and you have been watching his club matches. AGR alluded to that as well in one of the most recent Northern Futbol podcasts. 

That said, if he's really past it then what do we make of his call up when it comes? When he's called on to start, what does that say about the situation?

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Yes, they're not perfect, we know this, it's not an ideal situation.  But once again, you're weighing everyone vs 2021 Vitoria.  You still haven't watched Vitoria play recently.  Game is today at 4:15 est.

Hutch was also still really strong up until 12 months before the WC, and we saw what happened there.  Time goes by quickly my friend.

november 2023 we beat a strong jamaica team with vitoria so please do not put words in my mouth over my assessment. Its not cool to tell me my assessment isnt valid just because you think its based on 3 years ago. Theres nothing to suggest that I am comparing him to the vitoria of 3 years ago. Its a weak weak weak argument to try and prove yourself correct by incorrectly imposing your will over my opinion. Its disrespectful as well. 

He's not useless and theres no evidence that the other guys have surpassed him. Yes hes declining which is why cornelius is likely to start. But the sentiment that 2 of waterman, mcnaughton, bombito and ZMG are OBVIOUSLY better than him is just not true. Theres an argument hes been surpassed but its debatable which is why i disagreed that its "wild" to consider vitoria a top 2 RCB.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

november 2023 we beat a strong jamaica team with vitoria so please do not put words in my mouth over my assessment. Its not cool to tell me my assessment isnt valid just because you think its based on 3 years ago. Theres nothing to suggest that I am comparing him to the vitoria of 3 years ago. Its a weak weak weak argument to try and prove yourself correct by incorrectly imposing your will over my opinion. Its disrespectful as well. 

He's not useless and theres no evidence that the other guys have surpassed him. Yes hes declining which is why cornelius is likely to start. But the sentiment that 2 of waterman, mcnaughton, bombito and ZMG are OBVIOUSLY better than him is just not true. Theres an argument hes been surpassed but its debatable which is why i disagreed that its "wild" to consider vitoria a top 2 RCB.

To add, there is "better" and there is "better for the team/system" and those two are not always the same.

For example, if we are measuring a players ability, I would expect Bombito to be the best center back we have, but when you slot him into our team in place of Vitoria, is the team better? Are the players more comfortable with him? How about the communication? What about the leadership? 

These little factors are likely going to keep Vitoria in the team ahead of Bombito and others, until he drops a dud or two.