CNL Play-In for Copa America: Canada vs Trinidad & Tobago - Saturday, March 23, 2024 - Frisco (greater Dallas), Texas

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

58 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Does anyone play a 4-5-1 anymore (I am not a tactics geek)? 

4 at the back for defensive solidity (including Davies at LB).  A CDM who can support the defence when Davies goes marauding up the left and just generally to absolutely lock down the midfield.  Two legit wide men (prob Millar and Buchanan) to drive at the flanks - with Davies overlapping and hitting defences at full speed as he likes to do.  

I guess the real issue this creates if a the age old conundrum - optimizing formation or trying to get our best 11 individual players onto the field by shoe-horning them into a functional set up.  Because a 4-5-1 means that one of David or Larin doesn’t start, and that is something we tend to avoid if at all possible (and playing David at CAM would mean one of Staq or Kone sits if we play the aforementioned CDM.  

Gah 

 

 

451/433 is what Liverpool still do almost exclusively, for instance.  Diaz, Nunez and Salah up front at the moment. Very solid midfield, attacking fullbacks and nearing world class CBs.  Could we do that?

Davies is not an actual fullback, he is not a crosser like Alexander-Arnold or Robertson, when healthy.  Could he make it work in a good system like those of pre-Tuchel Bayern.  Of course.  It would, however take a firm coach and reduction of his Canadian ego.  Is he still better as a wingback, to me - yes.  Johnston is perfect at our level on the other side, I will say.

Do we have the Concacaf equivalent of that attacking three - yes.  Beyond that level - not sure.  And overall our strikers have shown better form - short and long term than our wingers.  

Midfield we struggle to be solild - even at a Concacaf level.  Even our locks are not playing their best or that much.  Choniere, in my opinion need to be given a number of chances.  Ahmed makes us pretty lightweight, partially because Kone does not play as athletic as he is. 

We are looking for centre backs - currently.  It's not like we don't have them, they just haven't show they can do it yet.  Bombito needs to be giving a extended run there, Cornelius as well.  LDF unfortunately is a RCB in a 3 only at this point. (I would put him in the midfield before Bombito). I feel like at a decent level Miller is the same on the other side.  We have seen Waterman but CB is an older player's postion, so maybe. McNaughton is maybe coming. Kennedy can never get a real run without injury.

 

From that, overall, to play more of our best in their best postions, I still go with 3-5-2, not 343, not matter how much we love the attacking depth.  

 

Edited March 13 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[blueseeka]

Had a night to think about the roster, my thoughts

I honestly am shocked at no Borjan, Vitoria or Hoilett. I could see Biello keep one of them off the roster but I never thought all three. Took a lot of balls to do this in a must win game. I am impressed.

For him to include both Bair and Ugbo is great. I didn't expect to see Bair on the list over Brym.

Nice to see Millar as a given for the roster now.

Shaffelhamburger and JRR are probably the biggest surprises over Corbeanu. I honestly think it came down to Shaffelburg or Corbeanu. And he picked Shaffelburg for always providing a jolt to CMNT whenever he has been called on late as a substitute. He is always noticeable on the field. He has also had a great start for Nashville. Yes, I know Corbeanu had a great goal on the weekend. I fully expect him on this team by the summer and replacing Shaffelburg. JRR is a player that they obviously see as a big part of the future. He is such a presence on the field where Brym sometimes doesn't.

I was glad to see both Piette and Choinière on the list. Piette is always solid. Watched the Montreal game on the weekend and never noticed how weird he looks tucking his shirt into his pants. Why Piette, why? Choinière looks to have earned a roster spot for the foreseeable future. Ahmed hasn't played much, so i didn't expect him to make it

Waterman over MacNaughton/ McGraw is kind off surprising. The team lacks a big presence on the back end. Waterman does a good job in passing out from the CB's which is a skill that he excels at and Canada lacks at.

No other real surprised with LDF, Cornelius, Miller, Johnston. Bombito has been solid this year and might be the big CB presence they are looking for. Way quicker than MacNaughton and McGraw.

It is amazing when you look at amount of players have been phased out from the WCQ

Borjan, Vitoria, Kennedy, Henry, Kaye, Fraser, Hutchinson, Wotherspoon, Hoillet, Cavallini

I think the next one to be on the chopping block could be Adekugbe. I am also not the biggest fan of Miller. But we lack CB talent

 

 

Edited March 13 by blueseeka

[Chad_Impact]

No Borjan, thankfully 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

My comment was re using Staq as a #6 in a 3 man midfield

So was mine. I just also included what happens currently in the 2 man midfield with kone to further my point. 

In a midfield 3 with staq at 6 we still have the challenges of counter attacks etc. I think staq at 6 or a double pivot of 8's is our only option but it still kinda sucks we dont have a proper CDM. 

Its a little like holland using de jong as a 6 except de jong doesnt get forward as much as staq. Great cdms on the ball. Decent positionally and can put in a challenge. Not fantastic in transition moments. 

[Wasp]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

The issue with a 4-4-2 and davies at lb is that we need davies as an aggressivley offensive fullback. That means we need a DM to cover our fullbacks attacking, which we dont have. Then steph is forced to stay back more and we lose his influence or we risk getting countered. Sure we could tell AJ to stay home more but thats not balanced and doesnt address the counters that start in the middle of the field. 

Our best players all suit a 3-5-2. 

Staq and kone need a 3rd cm so they can influence the game box to box.
Davies, buchanan (and millar) are wingbacks at an elite level. 
david is better in a 2 (although his game has evolved alot).
Waterman, bombito, cornelius, johnston all play 3 atb regularly at club
miller LDF and waterman are not great in the air so a back 3 with a taller cb helps quite a bit. 

Sure theres a case that AJ is better at FB than WB or RCB. Or that some of these guys play 4 atb for club and do fine. All true. Against elite opposition, our shape may be required to be whats structurally best at the expense of playing some players in there non favourite formation. I get that argument too. 

But on paper, our top guys suit a 3-5-2 more than any other formation. 
 

I see what you're saying. Perhaps my issue with the 3-5-2 was more in Herdman's recent execution of it rather than the tactical concept as a whole. My issue with how we've been playing 3-5-2 in the past few years is that our wingbacks were given far too much freedom and not enough defensive responsibility. You can play that way against lesser CONCACAF competition and get away with it, but against top competition our CB's simply weren't good enough to be able to keep up when Davies and Tajon would push too far forward and they were left defending by themselves in transition.

[Sal333]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Does anyone play a 4-5-1 anymore (I am not a tactics geek)? 

4 at the back for defensive solidity (including Davies at LB).  A CDM who can support the defence when Davies goes marauding up the left and just generally to absolutely lock down the midfield.  Two legit wide men (prob Millar and Buchanan) to drive at the flanks - with Davies overlapping and hitting defences at full speed as he likes to do.  

I guess the real issue this creates if a the age old conundrum - optimizing formation or trying to get our best 11 individual players onto the field by shoe-horning them into a functional set up.  Because a 4-5-1 means that one of David or Larin doesn’t start, and that is something we tend to avoid if at all possible (and playing David at CAM would mean one of Staq or Kone sits if we play the aforementioned CDM.  

Gah 

       

 

Larin

Davies Kone David Eustaquio Buchanan
Miller Waterman Cornelius Johnston

Missing your CDM and Davies is not a fullback

 

You could exchange Miller with Davies and put Millar on the wing but you're still missing that CDM.

[toontownman]

Dissapointed there is no Ali but definitely respect the decision as a wise one. Just love seeing that guy play.

Feel for Lukas. He is really knocking at the door. 

Lots to like and I hope we can follow through with a win and then a new coach soon after.

[dyslexic nam]

16 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Larin

Davies Kone David Eustaquio Buchanan
Miller Waterman Cornelius Johnston

Missing your CDM and Davies is not a fullback

 

You could exchange Miller with Davies and put Millar on the wing but you're still missing that CDM.

That was the sort of thing I was initially thinking of but then you essentially eliminate one of the positives, which is a CDM to protect the back line (especially because we know Davies will join the attack from LB).

Part of my thinking is based on the idea that we simply have enough attacking talent to score at least one or two goals against a team like T&T.  Regardless of formation, the strength of our attack should get the ball in the back of the net once or twice.  We have proven that we can score goals - even against lesser teams that bunker.   And insofar as that is true, victory could come down to us keeping a clean sheet.  And clearly stating the obvious - a win is the absolute priority.  This isn’t about style, or getting used to a formation that will be viable at Copa, or bedding in new players, anything else.  We just need the result.  Thus the focus on making sure we have defensive coverage.  

We would likely win a game where we just exchange haymakers and count on out-attacking them, but I would much rather a conservative approach where we focus on defensive solidity.  

 

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

4-5-1 can manifest in many ways . 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-1-4-1. 
4-5-1 is probably the laziest description of a formation because it lacks the nuance of how the midfield is structured 

That's not laziness, that's the beauty and flexibility of the the 4-5-1.  It can be everything, defensive or offensive, possession oriented, counter attacking, low block, etc....

I say this, but my personal preference is for 3 at the back, it just doesn't suit our CANMNT squad.

[Bigandy]

27 minutes ago, costarg said:

That's not laziness, that's the beauty and flexibility of the the 4-5-1.  It can be everything, defensive or offensive, possession oriented, counter attacking, low block, etc....

I say this, but my personal preference is for 3 at the back, it just doesn't suit our CANMNT squad.

I think its lazy to describe a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3 as a 4-5-1. The lack of specificity includes everything yet defines nothing. Does a 4-5-1 play with a 6 or double 8's or a 10? How high are the wingers? etc.  

I do agree that a "4-5-1" typically includes players on the field who can be shifted quite easily to alter the specific formation though better than other formations... A back 3 of miller, Cornelius and waterman would be hard to turn into a back 4 without putting a square peg in a round hole. 


 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

 

1 hour ago, costarg said:

I say this, but my personal preference is for 3 at the back, it just doesn't suit our CANMNT squad.

I would characterized that as being a bit stuck in the past. I would say is a bit lazy to say our CB are bad and will for sure be bad in even 6 months.  We have mismanaged our pool I think but we have options. 

Cornelius has played on the left in a 3, a fair bit over the second half of his season and has the needed pace. Miller's best games (that I have seen) have come there.  Kennedy, if ever healthy has the pace to do it.  

Centre - Waterman has been play in the centre of a 3, has decent height and seems to have improved his leadership.  Bombito can be there eventually as well as on the right.  McGraw can be a solution to some situations as well. Same with McNaughton.  At this point those are all MLS starters. Knight-Lebel might be the future.

Bombito has the pace and ball skills on the right.  If Pep can use a fullback at centre back in a 3  a fair bit, I think it might be okay and Johnston, when heathly has not really let us down. Of course we are all waiting on de Fougerolles, but unless he has a huge growth spurt he is probably not ever playing in a centre back pair at a decent level. 

We are considerable shorter at the back with this squad.  Re-enforcement back there makes sense and least from recent evidence and looking forward, these are pretty decent players. 

A 4 is maybe a safer solution but I don't think it fits the squad, neccesarily.  But the pieces are there to develop a good 3 at the back system.  It is more complex, yes, but the rewards are greater.

Edited March 13 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

20 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think its lazy to describe a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3 as a 4-5-1. The lack of specificity includes everything yet defines nothing. Does a 4-5-1 play with a 6 or double 8's or a 10? How high are the wingers? etc.  

I do agree that a "4-5-1" typically includes players on the field who can be shifted quite easily to alter the specific formation though better than other formations... A back 3 of miller, Cornelius and waterman would be hard to turn into a back 4 without putting a square peg in a round hole. 


 

I agree with your last point with those players but disagree with your point about flexibilty, 3-5-2 is very flexible because you have more players with pace, generally. (And if it is done right - you can of course pretend is its 3 when its acutally 5 to close up shop). 

One example, watch Inter,  they will almost always pull back to a 4, when building from the back.  The one wing back becomes a full back and one CB becomes the other.  The other wingback race up the field providing the outlet.  Because you are not sure what side that will happen from, it allows them to be very successfull.  However, that requires pace and ball skills you often don't find in a centre back.  If your back 3 is Miller, Cornelius and Bombito (though I think that Cornelius can function on the left) I think with some games and constistency, that is possible.

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

I would characterized that as being a bit stuck in the past. I would say is a bit lazy to say our CB are bad and will for sure be bad in even 6 months.  We have mismanaged our pool I think but we options. 

Cornelius has played on the left in a 3, a fair bit over the second half of his season and has the needed pace. Miller's best games (that I have seen) have come there.  Kennedy, if ever healthy has the pace to do it.  

Centre - Waterman has been play in the centre of a 3, has decent height and seems to have improved his leadership.  Bombito can be there eventually as well as on the right.  McGraw can be a solution to some situations as well. Same with McNaughton.  At this point those are all MLS starters. Knight-Lebel might be the future.

Bombito has the pace and ball skills on the right.  If Pep can use a fullback at centre back in a 3  a fair bit, I think it might be okay and Johnston, when heathly has not really let us down. Of course we are all waiting on de Fougerolles, but unless he has a huge growth spurt he is probably not ever playing in a centre back pair at a decent level. 

We are considerable shorter at the back with this squad.  Re-enforcement back there makes sense and least from recent evidence and looking forward, these are pretty decent players. 

A 4 is maybe a safer solution but I don't think it fits the squad, neccesarily.  You to leave out someone somewhere in every line-up.

Today, I really look forward to seeing a combination of something like Cornelius Waterman Bombito, it has all the pieces and profiles for a fairly balanced and solid backline, but it's still a bit early to say.  Add in pieces like MacNaughton, McGraw, LDF, JKL and things can change for the better very quickly.  It's probably a viable option in the near future, I just feel we are not there yet.

I'd still like to see the best LB in the world with a solid AJ at the right and an untested CB combo in the middle.  Gives us balance and the option of playing two strong wingers as well.  Overall the 11 is better.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

Today, I really look forward to seeing a combination of something like Cornelius Waterman Bombito, it has all the pieces and profiles for a fairly balanced and solid backline, but it's still a bit early to say.  Add in pieces like MacNaughton, McGraw, LDF, JKL and things can change for the better very quickly.  It's probably a viable option in the near future, I just feel we are not there yet.

I'd still like to see the best LB in the world with a solid AJ at the right and an untested CB combo in the middle.  Gives us balance and the option of playing two strong wingers as well.  Overall the 11 is better.

I don't think we ever get there by being scared and defaulting to a 4 whenever we have setbacks. 

On your second point, all power to Biello if he can get Davies to play like a leftback for Canada.  And of course we disagree about the 11 being better, when you leave out key players. 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I agree with your last point with those players but disagree with your point about flexibilty, 3-5-2 is very flexible because you have more players with pace, generally. (And if it is done right - you can of course pretend is its 3 when its acutally 5 to close up shop). 

One example, watch Inter,  they will almost always pull back to a 4, when building from the back.  The one wing back becomes a full back and one CB becomes the other.  The other wingback race up the field providing the outlet.  Because you are not sure what side that will happen from, it allows them to be very successfull.  However, that requires pace and ball skills you often don't find in a centre back.  If your back 3 is Miller, Cornelius and Bombito (though I think that Cornelius can function on the left) I think with some games and constistency, that is possible.

Ill clarify. I think a 3-5-2 is extremely flexible as well. Im just saying that most squads have the personal to be more versatile with a back 4 than a back 3. (obviously big budgets with transfers can help a team like inter mould the flexibility they want). 

Typically 3 proper CB's are not very flexible in playing a fullback role. Think de vrij, de ligt, and VVD for holland. All would struggle as a fullback. 

vs

a 4-5-1 where staq moves from a double 8 pivot to a single 6 and oso drops beside kone in a double 8. 

Its typically easier to give midfielders different roles than to move a CB to a fullback or WB role. 

But ya, I agree with your point that 3-5-2 is very flexible. 

Edited March 13 by Bigandy

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Today, I really look forward to seeing a combination of something like Cornelius Waterman Bombito, it has all the pieces and profiles for a fairly balanced and solid backline, but it's still a bit early to say.  Add in pieces like MacNaughton, McGraw, LDF, JKL and things can change for the better very quickly.  It's probably a viable option in the near future, I just feel we are not there yet.

I'd still like to see the best LB in the world with a solid AJ at the right and an untested CB combo in the middle.  Gives us balance and the option of playing two strong wingers as well.  Overall the 11 is better.

I think waterman is the odd man out as a central CB. I hope im wrong but I feel he could be exposed in the air and may struggle at a higher level to organize the backline. Mcnaughton makes me feel slightly better.  

JKL at the center of bombito and cornelius with LDF at CDM would be a wild development. 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I agree with your last point with those players but disagree with your point about flexibilty, 3-5-2 is very flexible because you have more players with pace, generally. (And if it is done right - you can of course pretend is its 3 when its acutally 5 to close up shop). 

One example, watch Inter,  they will almost always pull back to a 4, when building from the back.  The one wing back becomes a full back and one CB becomes the other.  The other wingback race up the field providing the outlet.  Because you are not sure what side that will happen from, it allows them to be very successfull.  However, that requires pace and ball skills you often don't find in a centre back.  If your back 3 is Miller, Cornelius and Bombito (though I think that Cornelius can function on the left) I think with some games and constistency, that is possible.

Watchin inter play right now and I notice defensively they are dropping into a 5. Offensively we quite often see barella drop into a cb role next to de vrij with pavard and bastoni splitting into FB spots and the wingbacks pushing on. Not revolutionary but flexible. Whats interesting is that barella and mkhitaryian are the ones using engaging the opposition wingback/CB  rather than dumfries pushing forward and the entire back line shifting into a back 4. 

Then theres also moments of what your described with one wingback pushing on in the attacking sense leaving a traditional back 4. Its less frequent as its a bit more cagey atm but very flexible movements from inter. It makes sense that buchanan takes time to adjust to the tactical demands. 

[costarg]

6 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I think its lazy to describe a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3 as a 4-5-1. The lack of specificity includes everything yet defines nothing. Does a 4-5-1 play with a 6 or double 8's or a 10? How high are the wingers? etc.  

I do agree that a "4-5-1" typically includes players on the field who can be shifted quite easily to alter the specific formation though better than other formations... A back 3 of miller, Cornelius and waterman would be hard to turn into a back 4 without putting a square peg in a round hole. 

That's exactly it, your foundation is 4-5-1, and can be a defensive 4-2-3-1 one game, change one player and be an offensive 4-1-4-1 the next match.  Fundamentally, your lineup, roles and shape stay very similar, there is no major shift in setup or training.  But it makes a huge difference depending on the opponent.  All a question of adapting, yet having a solid base and not reinventing the wheel over and over.  

Switching from back 4 to 3 in the middle of a game is usually an act of desperation and throwing the sink at the problem.  High risk/high reward kinda thinking.    

[costarg]

4 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I think waterman is the odd man out as a central CB. I hope im wrong but I feel he could be exposed in the air and may struggle at a higher level to organize the backline. Mcnaughton makes me feel slightly better.  

JKL at the center of bombito and cornelius with LDF at CDM would be a wild development. 

Waterman has been playing central CB since last year, and he's looked vastly improved since.  I'm also a fan of MacNaughton, but I don't think he's ever played in the center or in been "the organizer".  Pretty sure Zimmerman plays that role.

JKL, Bombito, LDF are definitely the future.  So looking forward to seeing them develop.

[SpursFlu]

I basically think what happened was they said ok.. who do we know for a fact won't be on thecteam in 2026

Vitoria, Borjan, MAK & Hoilett 

I would have added Osorio to the list but I can see he's maybe a maybe

That's really all this is. I think it should have happened right after the world cup but I think they were trying to qualify for Copa and since that kinda went sideways it was like ok whatever just do it now. It's dragging out

On the flip side.. I don't get the disrespect. Especially for Borjan. This guy's been our top keeper by a long shot for a long time and was integral in us changing up our national teams fortunes. I'm confused by the hate

[costarg]

5 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I basically think what happened was they said ok.. who do we know for a fact won't be on thecteam in 2026

Vitoria, Borjan, MAK & Hoilett 

I would have added Osorio to the list but I can see he's maybe a maybe

That's really all this is. I think it should have happened right after the world cup but I think they were trying to qualify for Copa and since that kinda went sideways it was like ok whatever just do it now. It's dragging out

On the flip side.. I don't get the disrespect. Especially for Borjan. This guy's been our top keeper by a long shot for a long time and was integral in us changing up our national teams fortunes. I'm confused by the hate

As someone who strongly believed Borjan's time was up, I don't feel anyone hated or disrespected him.  Saying he's good for a few blunders and he should not have juggled the ball vs Jamaica is fair commentary and just reality.  Media was also all over that, it's just not done or necessary.  He's definitely one of the greats and a big part of getting us to the WC.

[SpursFlu]

7 minutes ago, costarg said:

As someone who strongly believed Borjan's time was up, I don't feel anyone hated or disrespected him.  Saying he's good for a few blunders and he should not have juggled the ball vs Jamaica is fair commentary and just reality.  Media was also all over that, it's just not done or necessary.  He's definitely one of the greats and a big part of getting us to the WC.

Oh no he juggled the ball. Then passed the ball and somebody else completely coughed the ball up. There seems to be a good riddance vibe around Borjan. He's old. That's how this goes. If we had a clear 2 it would have happened earlier. 

[JamboAl]

The Voyageurs section is now sold out thanks to a couple of Canadian U-17 teams participating in the Dallas Cup.

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Oh no he juggled the ball. Then passed the ball and somebody else completely coughed the ball up. There seems to be a good riddance vibe around Borjan. He's old. That's how this goes. If we had a clear 2 it would have happened earlier. 

Exactly, the ball juggling was supposed to have an effect: we are bossing you. It should have given us the swagger, all around, to keep the score where it was.

If then you think that gesture made a bunch of top flight professionals overly cocky on the way to blowing the match, then we must thing these guys are really weak-minded. What happened on that one? Steph turned wrong, Johnston stupidly made a run out of his holding position in the corner, and we cried about a foul. We were not locked down defensively and supporting each other (for me, that is more on Biello not putting out a clear message). But Borjan juggling was not part of the tactical problem on that particular play.

[Unnamed Trialist]

24 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

The Voyageurs section is now sold out thanks to a couple of Canadian U-17 teams participating in the Dallas Cup.

Give those kids a proper initiation into being a V.