Big_M Posted July 19 Author Share Posted July 19 obviously its pay to play so a business opportunity more than anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 13 minutes ago, scullion44 said: National team must be ecstatic this is where their copa winnings are going. The CSB doesn't get the tournament prize money. This is a lie Ivan, scullion44 and Aird25 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 41 minutes ago, scullion44 said: National team must be ecstatic this is where their copa winnings are going. You're clearly clueless about reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordan Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 2 hours ago, Aird25 said: Improving the squad and increasing competition will undoubtedly improve the Canadians on the squad And eventually improve Ottawa too! Aird25 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansem Posted July 19 Share Posted July 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, imoffside said: This doesn't make sense to me, I thought the whole purpose of the CPL was to help develop Canadian talent. Why focus on Mexico? -Use the expertise and infrastructure over there (they aren't starting anything from scratch, most likely acquiring existing businesses and putting their brand on it) -bring the strong ones here to perhaps play for the club and/or sell while they get Canadian passports. -The girl side is most likely thinking ahead for NSL -Ties in Mexico to perhaps send Canadians south as well Definitely thinking outside the box, I actually don't know if I'm right but that would be my reasoning. Edited July 19 by Ansem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 7 hours ago, imoffside said: This doesn't make sense to me, I thought the whole purpose of the CPL was to help develop Canadian talent. Why focus on Mexico? It almost reads like an April Fool's post in July. Unnamed Trialist, NVsoccer and Aird25 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil03 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 9 hours ago, narduch said: The CSB doesn't get the tournament prize money. This is a lie Correct, but at the same time having the league still being propped by money that, no matter how you cut it, is generated by the national teams, and having one of the clubs who is still reasonably far from being sulf-sufficient invest what must be significant amount of money in academies in one of our continental rival is just not a good look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 By Canadians, For Mexicans... All power to them if they have been able to fleece some money out of whoever is organizing this in Mexico in exchange for having their name attached to it, but why talk this up on their twitter stream when it runs counter to what the league initially claimed it was all about? What I find most egregious about the whole exercise though is that they are described as centers rather than centres. Come on Paul B don't you remember, c-o-l-o-u-r that's how you #@$%ing spell colour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 17 hours ago, Ansem said: -Use the expertise and infrastructure over there (they aren't starting anything from scratch, most likely acquiring existing businesses and putting their brand on it) -bring the strong ones here to perhaps play for the club and/or sell while they get Canadian passports. -The girl side is most likely thinking ahead for NSL -Ties in Mexico to perhaps send Canadians south as well Definitely thinking outside the box, I actually don't know if I'm right but that would be my reasoning. Considering the ages involved, it sounds like it might also be an attempt to bring people to St John's at Shawnigan Lake for school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 11 hours ago, phil03 said: Correct, but at the same time having the league still being propped by money that, no matter how you cut it, is generated by the national teams, and having one of the clubs who is still reasonably far from being sulf-sufficient invest what must be significant amount of money in academies in one of our continental rival is just not a good look... It's a bad look to invest in your club and business? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil03 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Aird25 said: It's a bad look to invest in your club and business? Why? Because, like I said, said money generated by national programs are currently propping up that club and business, and the core argument to justify that has always been that it will build up the CMNT's player pool and, before the NSL was unveiled, that it would also build up the CWNT's player pools eventually. If Pacific or its owners have the money to invest in a Mexican foothold then they ought to return the cash they receive from the CSB deal to the national programs. If they can't return that money to the national programs then they don't have the revenues to make it remotely responsible to invest in a Mexican foothold. Simple as that. The way the club is currently behaving is like if a business got a ton of cash from the government during a recession, with the reasoning that it would help save Canadian jobs and then, while still receiving that funding, proceeded to outsource a bunch of their jobs abroad. If you receive financial assistance like that (and this is what the CSB deal is and was meant to be, make no mistake about it. I know your take is that we simply don't know whether this is the case but, with all due respect, you are the only person I have read or heard have any doubt on the subject) it come from certain moral responsibilities, even if the CSA was too terrible at its job to make sure those were legally enforcable. Edited July 20 by phil03 Ansem, Ivan, Aird25 and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 5 minutes ago, phil03 said: Because, like I said, said money generated by national programs are currently propping up that club and business, and the core argument to justify that has always been that it will build up the CMNT's player pool and, before the NSL was unveiled, that it would also build up the CWNT's player pools eventually. If Pacific or its owners have the money to invest in a Mexican foothold then they ought to return the cash they receive from the CSB deal to the national programs. If they can't return that money to the national programs then they don't have the revenues to make it remotely responsible to invest in a Mexican foothold. Simple as that. The way the club is currently behaving is like if a business got a ton of cash from the government during a recession, with the reasoning that it would help save Canadian jobs and then, while still receiving that funding, proceeded to outsource a bunch of their jobs abroad. If you receive financial assistance like that (and this is what the CSB deal is, make no mistake about it. I know your take is that we simply don't know whether this is the case but, with all due respect, you are the only person I have read or heard have any doubt on the subject) it come from certain moral responsibilities, even if the CSA was too terrible at its job to make sure those were legally enforcable. How much money do you think Pacific receives annually as a result of the deal CSB and CSA made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil03 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Aird25 said: How much money do you think Pacific receives annually as a result of the deal CSB and CSA made? As you often point out yourself we don't have the specific numbers. However, I have often seen $13 million floated for the CPL as a whole for 2022 so Pacific getting two or three million out of that pot, and significant amounts from other years, is a fairly reasonable guess IMO. And I actually (if grudgingly) in favor of the CSB deal as a concept (altough including the CWNT's revenues should have come with more binding obligations to start a women's league in short order), I just want that a) they use the money to actually develop players Canadian players, as they are supposed to do, and b) that they actually work on weaning themselves out of that money. The Mexican academies go against both points. Ignoring the proverbial elephant in the room that is the CSB deal won't make it stop mattering. Edited July 20 by phil03 nolando 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 1 minute ago, phil03 said: I have often seen $13 million floated for the CPL as a whole for 2022 Where have you seen this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil03 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Aird25 said: Where have you seen this? Like I said, its been floating around. I freely admit I don't have a specific source for it but I find it credible considering that by the admission of pro-CSB CSA officials to parliament sponsorship that, even without broadcasting rights (which included a lot of key qualification games that were very much the talk of the country), the sponsorships alone generated $8.2 million: https://openparliament.ca/committees/canadian-heritage/44-1/70/paul-claude-berube-1/?singlepage=1. I also seen it repeated by someone who, according to what he writes aniway, is working for your very Pacific FC... I would also add that, as much as I believe in the CPL as a project and want it to succeed it has yet to break it into the mainsteam so arguing that we simply don't know whether its been propped up by national programs that have attracted close to a fifth to a quarter of the country to watch their games or if its the other way around is extremely unconvincing. Like I said earlier: right now this league is an investment for the rest of Canada's soccer scene and that is ok. I just want its clubs to act accordingly. Edited July 20 by phil03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, phil03 said: Like I said, its been floating around. I freely admit I don't have a specific source for it but I find it credible considering that by the admission of pro-CSB CSA officials to parliament sponsorship that, even without broadcasting rights (which included a lot of key qualification games that were very much the talk of the country), the sponsorships alone generated $8.2 million: https://openparliament.ca/committees/canadian-heritage/44-1/70/paul-claude-berube-1/?singlepage=1. I also seen it repeated by someone who, according to what he writes aniway, is working for your very Pacific FC... I would also add that, as much as I believe in the CPL as a project and want it to succeed it has yet to break it into the mainsteam so arguing that we simply don't know whether its been propped up by national programs that have attracted close to a fifth to a quarter of the country to watch their games or if its the other way around is extremely unconvincing. Like I said earlier: right now this league is an investment for the rest of Canada's soccer scene and that is ok. I just want its clubs to act accordingly. Just to confirm, you think broadcasting rights for the national teams are suddenly worth ~$10 million? Do you realize that for years CSA has been forced to pay major broadcasting companies to have games aired? To confirm, those sponsorship numbers include all of CSBs properties (CPL, League 1s, CanChamp, National Teams etc), right? What percentage; 25, 50, 75 % of that number can be attributed to national teams? I don't have the means to separate it but there's not really a lot of opportunities to sponsor national teams. Former national team players have come forward about this. We rarely play at home, rights to major tournaments are owned by federations etc. Where is the opportunity? I'd be grateful for a link to a Pacific employee saying the club receives millions from national teams. I've spoken with a lot of people involved and that doesn't line up in the slightest with what I've been told Regardless, vilifying the people actually invested in improving the sport in Canada is just about the most detrimental action I can imagine. I don't understand your stance at all Edited July 20 by Aird25 red card and Admiral Murray 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 22 hours ago, Ansem said: -Use the expertise and infrastructure over there (they aren't starting anything from scratch, most likely acquiring existing businesses and putting their brand on it) -bring the strong ones here to perhaps play for the club and/or sell while they get Canadian passports. -The girl side is most likely thinking ahead for NSL -Ties in Mexico to perhaps send Canadians south as well Definitely thinking outside the box, I actually don't know if I'm right but that would be my reasoning. They're couching someone's business idea in that language I'd say. Seems like it's designed for middle and higher classes who'll pay for a Canada option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red card Posted July 20 Share Posted July 20 4 hours ago, phil03 said: As you often point out yourself we don't have the specific numbers. However, I have often seen $13 million floated for the CPL as a whole for 2022 so Pacific getting two or three million out of that pot, and significant amounts from other years, is a fairly reasonable guess IMO. And I actually (if grudgingly) in favor of the CSB deal as a concept (altough including the CWNT's revenues should have come with more binding obligations to start a women's league in short order), I just want that a) they use the money to actually develop players Canadian players, as they are supposed to do, and b) that they actually work on weaning themselves out of that money. The Mexican academies go against both points. Ignoring the proverbial elephant in the room that is the CSB deal won't make it stop mattering. These financial aspects have been addressed in the CSB/Pay threads. Too many in ignorance/stretching to vent often make the assumption all the money generated by CPL/CSB is driven by interest in national teams. About 1/3 of CPL sponsors just sponsor the CPL. Club football offers more & regular brand activation opportunities in 8 cities. In contrast, there has been only 2 domestic opportunities this year so far with the national teams. CIBC is front-of-shirt sponsor of Canada Soccer but it does the same for VFC and is sleeve sponsor for all CPL clubs along with sponsoring League 1s. Carlsberg & Telus are front-of-shirt sponsors for 2 CPL clubs. Other than CIBC, the sponsors haven't shown to be really engaged with Canada Soccer. Most of them didn't buy ad time during Qatar & AUS/NZL World Cups. For the recent Copa America, ex CIBC which may have been a bulk TSN buy, no Canada Soccer sponsor bought ad time. Despite all the concerns about the CSB deal being most unfair to the women's team, only sponsor to provide direct funding to the women's team was GE for 100k. In terms of Canada Soccer media rights, the only material monetization was for Mexico/USA men home WCQs. It allowed CSB to provide an additional low 6 figure payment to Canada Soccer. Otherwise, there was only nominal revenue generated via SN offsetting some of Mediapro's WCQ production costs, CBC paying for delayed showings of women's WCQs, TVA Sports paying for 2 friendlies & Fox Soccer CPL/Canada Soccer combo rights. Mediapro/CSB media related outlays included paying 100k to TSN to air Sinclair's send off match, paying Concacaf for Gold Cups/Nations League/youth tourneys and paying other federations for WCQs/friendly rights. Aird25 and Ivan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil03 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 (edited) 9 hours ago, Aird25 said: Just to confirm, you think broadcasting rights for the national teams are suddenly worth ~$10 million? Do you realize that for years CSA has been forced to pay major broadcasting companies to have games aired? To confirm, those sponsorship numbers include all of CSBs properties (CPL, League 1s, CanChamp, National Teams etc), right? What percentage; 25, 50, 75 % of that number can be attributed to national teams? I don't have the means to separate it but there's not really a lot of opportunities to sponsor national teams. Former national team players have come forward about this. We rarely play at home, rights to major tournaments are owned by federations etc. Where is the opportunity? I'd be grateful for a link to a Pacific employee saying the club receives millions from national teams. I've spoken with a lot of people involved and that doesn't line up in the slightest with what I've been told Regardless, vilifying the people actually invested in improving the sport in Canada is just about the most detrimental action I can imagine. I don't understand your stance at all I think it is more then likely that the broadcasting rights made the difference between the aforementioned $8.2 million (1) and $13 millions yes, and I would say 75% is probably a rather conservative estimate. I'd say 80% minimum. As for where the opportunity is, its the same then for most sports teams: its paying to be the (insert common name) of the CMNT. I also think that how things were in the pre-pandemic world is not a good indicator of how things are now. The national was simply not in the mainstream at the time and it loom way larger in people's sports consumption now then in the past. Just trying to find articles about it before and during as well as after the qualifiers for 2022 and you'll see there was a massive difference. The fact we started to have a genuine shot at qualifying for World Cup was a game changer. As for my stance, its pretty simple: praise when somebody does something I think is good and criticise when somebody does something I think is bad. I have no problem giving Rob Friend credit for putting some of its own money on the line to help build Pacific and VFC but I also don't think that him doing so (or any other CPL owner doing so) is owed some kind of blind trust that whatever they are doing serves Canadian Soccer and is a good use of its resources. (1) With the context of the quote it does seem like they are talking about the national teams. 6 hours ago, red card said: I. These financial aspects have been addressed in the CSB/Pay threads. Too many in ignorance/stretching to vent often make the assumption all the money generated by CPL/CSB is driven by interest in national teams. About 1/3 of CPL sponsors just sponsor the CPL. Club football offers more & regular brand activation opportunities in 8 cities. In contrast, there has been only 2 domestic opportunities this year so far with the national teams. CIBC is front-of-shirt sponsor of Canada Soccer but it does the same for VFC and is sleeve sponsor for all CPL clubs along with sponsoring League 1s. Carlsberg & Telus are front-of-shirt sponsors for 2 CPL clubs. II. Other than CIBC, the sponsors haven't shown to be really engaged with Canada Soccer. Most of them didn't buy ad time during Qatar & AUS/NZL World Cups. For the recent Copa America, ex CIBC which may have been a bulk TSN buy, no Canada Soccer sponsor bought ad time. III. Despite all the concerns about the CSB deal being most unfair to the women's team, only sponsor to provide direct funding to the women's team was GE for 100k. IV. In terms of Canada Soccer media rights, the only material monetization was for Mexico/USA men home WCQs. It allowed CSB to provide an additional low 6 figure payment to Canada Soccer. Otherwise, there was only nominal revenue generated via SN offsetting some of Mediapro's WCQ production costs, CBC paying for delayed showings of women's WCQs, TVA Sports paying for 2 friendlies & Fox Soccer CPL/Canada Soccer combo rights. Mediapro/CSB media related outlays included paying 100k to TSN to air Sinclair's send off match, paying Concacaf for Gold Cups/Nations League/youth tourneys and paying other federations for WCQs/friendly rights. A lot to unpack here so I have number for my ease of answer: I. People assume it is driven by interest in the national teams because, objectively speaking, there is far more interest in the national teams. I'd also say that the number of sponsors doesn't equate to money. A lot of sponsors of CPL (although not all) are local businesses that just don't have the same money to spend. Furthermore, I do think its mistaken to see sponsorship as purely a business decision. Helping Canadian sports is actually one of the few things you can get the blue chips businesses in Canada to spend money on without much hope of solid returns, as long as the beneficiary makes it into the mainstream of Canadian sports, which the national programs have done and CSB hasn't... Objectively speaking we'd probably have more willing sponsors for the nationa programs II. TBH I don't see why that is such a strong argument... Other businesses have made some buy ins without being sponsors so they'd be considered somehow engaged by virtue of those adds buy in even if they aren't sponsors... I dunno, just doesn't seem a solid metric to me. III. The deal as it is inherently unfair to the CWNT, no if or but. It turn significant revenue streams from them to an organism aiming at funding a men's league without any legally binding timeline to establish a women's league. Regardless of the amount involved, this is just indefensible. IV. Do you have a link for any of that? Especially for the fact that only a handful of games brought money of any kinds... Mind you, even *if* that were true the very same arguments many often bring as to why TSN and co aren't interested in showing CPL on tv would be relevant here as well: MediaPro is a competitor to them and it obviously weighted into negotiations somehow and probably cost the CSA some good chunks of cash they would have gotten otherwise... Overall, the argument that a league whose very existence is ignored by most Canadians is making more money than national teams when some of the latter's games were among the most-watched events in Canadian broadcasting history is utterly unconvincing to me. I would need some extremely compelling evidence to believe it. And I am someone who actively defended the basic concept of the CSB deal to casuals or non-CPL watchers a fair few times so imagine how unconvincing it would be for the average Canadian Soccer fan... Would I like the league to be way more popular with sponsors and the wider public? Of course, who wouldn't? But we need to be realistic as to where things are actually at in those conversations and work from there if we want to go somewhere. And part of where we are is that as a wider soccer system we are still very much strap for cash, and that the national programs very much could have used the money in the CSB deal and the one indirectly lost because of it. So lets be frugal in our spending until the day we are finally in a better place and lets not spend money developing Mexican players instead of our own. Edited July 21 by phil03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaltan Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Pacific has a signing tomorrow, lets hope it is a midfielder that actually plays a ball forward !! if it is another forward or defender they have lost the plot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_M Posted July 21 Author Share Posted July 21 maybe they get a tahid loan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aird25 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 4 hours ago, zaltan said: Pacific has a signing tomorrow, lets hope it is a midfielder that actually plays a ball forward !! if it is another forward or defender they have lost the plot We need a goalscorer more than anything else. We should be much higher in the table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 2 hours ago, Big_M said: maybe they get a tahid loan? Interesting idea..but then perhaps Norman could be a candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 14 hours ago, Big_M said: maybe they get a tahid loan? I wouldn't mind that. The blurred out jersey in the IG post looked like it started with a C, though. Hoping for some offense -- not necessarily a striker. Although Moore has definitely missed some sitters and Zanatta has been a bust so far, sadly, we are missing that last killer pass most of all. Had hoped that would be Tircoveanu, but that hasn't materialized yet. Missing sitters is worse if your pool of opportunities is small. If you generate more chances, missing a couple is not as harmful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shorty Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 Devin O’Hea Seems a nice guy. Underwhelming signing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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