CNL: Jamaica vs Canada - Saturday, November 18th - 10:30am EST / 7:30am Pacific - Kingston, Jamaica

[trc2014]

16 minutes ago, RS said:

That's fair.

What I don't understand is people making extrapolations about what Biello will do with this current senior team based on one match (and two squads). Saying he has "yet to do anything different than Herdman" is absolutely nuts given he's coached the team for 90 minutes in a friendly against one of the most in-form teams in the world. 

To be clear, I'm not expecting much out of Biello either. I just think it's premature to judge him on his body of work with this team when that body of work is literally a single game so far.

To be fair - his decisions in the Japan game were brutal - not creative and a rinse and repeat of what JH would have done.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, RS said:

That's fair.

What I don't understand is people making extrapolations about what Biello will do with this current senior team based on one match (and two squads). Saying he has "yet to do anything different than Herdman" is absolutely nuts given he's coached the team for 90 minutes in a friendly against one of the most in-form teams in the world. 

To be clear, I'm not expecting much out of Biello either. I just think it's premature to judge him on his body of work with this team when that body of work is literally a single game so far.

Biello was assistant coach, he isn't new.  You'd have a point if he didn't know the guys.  He was there and saw our squad and the same issues we've been mentioning since before the WC.  Giving him carte blanche is kinda ridiculous.  Bringing in Vitoria at '45 shows he's in damage control mode, and not trying new things.  It was a friendly, they were already losing, nothing at stake.  Doing the same things the previous coach was doing with the same results is just beyond ridiculous.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, frmr said:

You think it's normal for a striker to average one red card per season? How many red cards has Jonathan David gotten in his career? Zero. Erling Haaland, zero. In fourteen seasons in Europe, Mo Salah has one red card. I won't go through every attacker in the world, but the rate at which Cav gets red carded is absolutely a "misnomer". You don't need to look further than the occasion when he purposely tread on someone's head to understand that he has a tendency for sheer stupidity. If you want to claim that I haven't "watched much football" as the reason for my arriving at this conclusion, then... okay. Also, let's not pretend like we're talking about Cav being carded for taking a professional foul to break up a counter, we're talking about his boneheaded moments where he sees red and does something inexplicable, or makes a rash or poorly timed challenge when it is not needed.

Hey, let's play a game of listing attackers with no red cards, and ignoring attackers with red cards.

I don't get why you would take the bait and make that list. It just proves what I said: you haven't watched much football. 

Since you are a reasonable person, just be honest and help me with a list of great attackers of the last 2 decades with multiple red cards. Start with Cristiano how about it. Then go to another golden boot like Suárez. Then Cavani. Totti. The only reason there aren't more in EPL, for example, is because in England a red is often coloured yellow (Shearer, check his yellows).

When you get down to the level of players like Cavallini, the numbers will leap out of the screen, you'll miss dinner and it'll be my fault.

[FreddyCanuck]

58 minutes ago, costarg said:

Biello was assistant coach, he isn't new.  You'd have a point if he didn't know the guys.  He was there and saw our squad and the same issues we've been mentioning since before the WC.  Giving him carte blanche is kinda ridiculous.  Bringing in Vitoria at '45 shows he's in damage control mode, and not trying new things.  It was a friendly, they were already losing, nothing at stake.  Doing the same things the previous coach was doing with the same results is just beyond ridiculous.

But if we think about it, that's sort of been Biello's M.O. as a coach. He's always been cautious and/or pragmatic, whether it was Montreal or with our youth teams. That's probably reflected in his selection (be it the squad or XI and subs).

Maybe he thinks keeping the players (read: veterans/key players) happy and having a consistent squad who understand the system is the best way for him to achieve results and, therefore, bolsterd his chances of getting the job.

Edited November 9, 2023 by FreddyCanuck

[frmr]

48 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Hey, let's play a game of listing attackers with no red cards, and ignoring attackers with red cards.

I don't get why you would take the bait and make that list. It just proves what I said: you haven't watched much football. 

Since you are a reasonable person, just be honest and help me with a list of great attackers of the last 2 decades with multiple red cards. Start with Cristiano how about it. Then go to another golden boot like Suárez. Then Cavani. Totti. The only reason there aren't more in EPL, for example, is because in England a red is often coloured yellow (Shearer, check his yellows).

When you get down to the level of players like Cavallini, the numbers will leap out of the screen, you'll miss dinner and it'll be my fault.

Yes, I was going to highlight Suarez. He was a generational striker, and you know what the only blemish on his career is? Of course you do. I don't really know what we're discussing here—surely you're not suggesting that taking a lot of red cards is a good quality in a striker. It's objectively bad. It hurts the team, period. Does the fact that Zidane headbutted someone in the face make him a better striker? Of course not. It was sheer stupidity and it is a red mark on his otherwise illustrious career. Believe me, if Cavallini scored as many goals as Saurez, Cavani or Totti, I would 100% look past the stupid decisions he makes, but he doesn't. When Cavallini has 1/4 or 1/5 ratio of red cards to goals, he's not worth the risk in my opinion. If that was 1 red card to 30 goals per season, then that's a completely different discussion, but he's not even in the same league as kind of return.

[CanadaFan123]

Just now, frmr said:

Yes, I was going to highlight Suarez. He was a generational striker, and you know what the only blemish on his career is? Of course you do. I don't really know what we're discussing here—surely you're not suggesting that taking a lot of red cards is a good quality in a striker. It's objectively bad. It hurts the team, period. Does the fact that Zidane headbutted someone in the face make him a better striker? Of course not. It was sheer stupidity and it is a red mark on his otherwise illustrious career. Believe me, if Cavallini scored as many goals as Saurez, Cavani or Totti, I would 100% look past the stupid decisions he makes, but he doesn't. When Cavallini has 1/4 or 1/5 ratio of red cards to goals, he's not worth the risk in my opinion. If that was 1 red card to 30 goals per season, then that's a completely different discussion, but he's not even in the same league as kind of return.

This is a ridiculous argument. The overall point is that you’re not going to leave off a striker who could help the team because he might do something he has yet to do for Canada (get a red). Larin could get a red … he has at club level (2 actually but one was rescinded).

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Hey, let's play a game of listing attackers with no red cards, and ignoring attackers with red cards.

I don't get why you would take the bait and make that list. It just proves what I said: you haven't watched much football. 

Since you are a reasonable person, just be honest and help me with a list of great attackers of the last 2 decades with multiple red cards. Start with Cristiano how about it. Then go to another golden boot like Suárez. Then Cavani. Totti. The only reason there aren't more in EPL, for example, is because in England a red is often coloured yellow (Shearer, check his yellows).

When you get down to the level of players like Cavallini, the numbers will leap out of the screen, you'll miss dinner and it'll be my fault.

I remember there was one red card Cavallini got while playing for Whitecaps and thinking that's not even a foul in the EPL

[frmr]

5 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

This is a ridiculous argument. The overall point is that you’re not going to leave off a striker who could help the team because he might do something he has yet to do for Canada (get a red). Larin could get a red … he has at club level (2 actually but one was rescinded).

No, I would leave Cavallini off because I think we have better options. This side discussion came about because I made a joke about him getting a lot of cards, which he does, and it has evolved from there.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Biello was assistant coach, he isn't new.  You'd have a point if he didn't know the guys.  He was there and saw our squad and the same issues we've been mentioning since before the WC.  Giving him carte blanche is kinda ridiculous.  Bringing in Vitoria at '45 shows he's in damage control mode, and not trying new things.  It was a friendly, they were already losing, nothing at stake.  Doing the same things the previous coach was doing with the same results is just beyond ridiculous.

I disagree. Who cares if he knows the players? He could know every player inside and out but that has zero to do with the amount of time the players have spent together on the pitch, implementing his system. To expect an interim coach to be able to implement a new system, integrate new players and still qualify for the Copa with literally 1 exhibition game is an extremely unfair standard. 

You could also argue he tried out cornelius at central CB, then gave vitoria a chance specifically to see which player he starts at ccb against jamaica. All the other options are inferior so I like that he gave the 2 realistic options an audition. What would be the point in giving waterman a runout at ccb if he is currently and has not been good enough for the CMNT during 90% of his career. 

[chalms04]

3 hours ago, El Diego said:

Some good points being made about Cavallini, how he fits stylistically and offers a unique skill set -- kind of like say Marcus Haber. Of course, the counter argument is that he now sucks. Maybe not as much as Haber, but imo enough to not warrant a call up.

How dare you besmirch the present leader of, and last season's CPL* golden boot winner.

*Cambodian Premier League

[Borjans Sweatpants]

Alright so whats the formation going to look like? Ideally one of these, though I think its safe to say Osorio will likely be ahead of Ahmed or other more veteran players.

3-5-2

                                   Borjan

             Johnston - Cornelius - Miller

Buchanan - Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed - Davies

                              David - Larin

4-3-3

                          Borjan

Johnston - Cornelius - Miller - Davies

         Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed

          Buchanan - Larin - David

4-4-2

                       Borjan

Johnston - Cornelius - Miller - Davies

Buchanan - Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed

                   Larin - David

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Its also one game so far so what kind of wild changes are you expecting. Would you as a coach make dramatic changes to your tactics with about 4 days to work with your players. Even if as a coach you believe a different system would be better, you still need time to build chemistry and learn expectations in that formation. Biello hasnt had any time to do any work with the squad. 

Considering it's a friendly with nothing at stake vs a highly superior opponent, yes, I would try something new.  Herdman had a tonne of opportunities to try something new and he blew it.  Now we have two important matches and are still stuck with the same questions and line-up. 

So now we played Japan, didn't try or learn anything new.  Some new guys got 20-30 minutes which don't mean much, got to see Borjan again and brought in more of Vitoria & Brym.  Once again we walk away knowing the back 3 is weak and Osorio still has not found his form.  Yet, we'll go into the next game doing the same, saying "well Osorio has experience so we need him there" along with the continuity of Miller/Vitoria/Johnston because we can't rock the boat during an important match. 

[costarg]

10 minutes ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

Alright so whats the formation going to look like? Ideally one of these, though I think its safe to say Osorio will likely be ahead of Ahmed or other more veteran players.

3-5-2

                                   Borjan

             Johnston - Cornelius - Miller

Buchanan - Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed - Davies

                              David - Larin

4-3-3

                          Borjan

Johnston - Cornelius - Miller - Davies

         Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed

          Buchanan - Larin - David

4-4-2

                       Borjan

Johnston - Cornelius - Miller - Davies

Buchanan - Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed

                   Larin - David

Nice, and probable, but I would love:

                          Crepeau

Johnston - Cornelius - Miller - Davies

Tajon - Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed - Hoilett

                           David

Looking to dominate and clog the midfield.

 

[EJsens1]

7 minutes ago, costarg said:

Considering it's a friendly with nothing at stake vs a highly superior opponent, yes, I would try something new.  Herdman had a tonne of opportunities to try something new and he blew it.  Now we have two important matches and are still stuck with the same questions and line-up. 

So now we played Japan, didn't try or learn anything new.  Some new guys got 20-30 minutes which don't mean much, got to see Borjan again and brought in more of Vitoria & Brym.  Once again we walk away knowing the back 3 is weak and Osorio still has not found his form.  Yet, we'll go into the next game doing the same, saying "well Osorio has experience so we need him there" along with the continuity of Miller/Vitoria/Johnston because we can't rock the boat during an important match. 

I agree with pretty much everything you’re saying here, but ultimately this comes down to the CSA not scheduling anything in September and one game in such a remote location in October. I suspect Biello (who I don’t want to see as coach after this window) would have tinkered more if he had been given more games, but here we are..

[costarg]

24 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I disagree. Who cares if he knows the players? He could know every player inside and out but that has zero to do with the amount of time the players have spent together on the pitch, implementing his system. To expect an interim coach to be able to implement a new system, integrate new players and still qualify for the Copa with literally 1 exhibition game is an extremely unfair standard. 

You could also argue he tried out cornelius at central CB, then gave vitoria a chance specifically to see which player he starts at ccb against jamaica. All the other options are inferior so I like that he gave the 2 realistic options an audition. What would be the point in giving waterman a runout at ccb if he is currently and has not been good enough for the CMNT during 90% of his career. 

I understand your standpoint.  We differ there.  Your point is there is no time to familiarize ourselves with a new system.  My point is we have nothing to lose.

What I cannot understand is how you can justify "gave vitoria a chance specifically to see which player he starts at ccb against jamaica". My gawd, we've seen what Vitoria can do, how much more do we need!?!?!  He slotted into the same position with the same players around him.  It's crazy to try to justify that.  Do you think he'll grow a new pair of legs?  He's composed, but painfully slow.  We know this.

[BearcatSA]

The only thing I wonder with the Cavallini selection is why wouldn't the coaching staff bring him back for the Japan friendly to get him back in sync with the other vets that were brought in?

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

I understand your standpoint.  We differ there.  Your point is there is no time to familiarize ourselves with a new system.  My point is we have nothing to lose.

What I cannot understand is how you can justify "gave vitoria a chance specifically to see which player he starts at ccb against jamaica". My gawd, we've seen what Vitoria can do, how much more do we need!?!?!  He slotted into the same position with the same players around him.  It's crazy to try to justify that.  Do you think he'll grow a new pair of legs?  He's composed, but painfully slow.  We know this.

I think we have a copa america berth to lose. therefore a friendly designed specifically as prep for the qualification match requires realistic experimentation/trying to get the team chemistry back after not playing for a long time. Your stance essentially states that we will 100% lose with vitoria and borjan. A coach has to look at what his best options are. Even if we know vitoria is slow, he's still our best ccb. Unless someone else improves or he declines enough that this isnt true, he should be considered. 

The giving a chance is more so for cornelius. Since the WC cornelius has improved and vitoria has regressed. To what degree? Is cornelius the better option? how would we assess this? The easiest way is to compare their performances in a match. Was it clear that cornelius has passed vitoria? Nope. Therefore vitoria and cornelius are both to be considered. 

no one is justifying that hes not slow or that hes a new player. The justification is that only vitoria and cornelius and to a less degree kennedy are options at central CB. ZMG, waterman and mcnaughton are downgrades based on today's assessment.  Wouldnt it be crazy to play an inferior player because "we know what we have.... we dont know what the inferior player can do". 

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

Alright so whats the formation going to look like? Ideally one of these, though I think its safe to say Osorio will likely be ahead of Ahmed or other more veteran players.

3-5-2

                                   Borjan

             Johnston - Cornelius - Miller

Buchanan - Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed - Davies

                              David - Larin

4-3-3

                          Borjan

Johnston - Cornelius - Miller - Davies

         Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed

          Buchanan - Larin - David

4-4-2

                       Borjan

Johnston - Cornelius - Miller - Davies

Buchanan - Kone - Eustaquio - Ahmed

                   Larin - David

Away 3-5-2

I believe we played 4-2-2 (or was it 4-3-3) last time in Jamaica and it looked terrible.

Davies couldn't do much and neither could David. Maybe I will research that match ahead of next week...

[costarg]

40 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think we have a copa america berth to lose. therefore a friendly designed specifically as prep for the qualification match requires realistic experimentation/trying to get the team chemistry back after not playing for a long time. Your stance essentially states that we will 100% lose with vitoria and borjan. A coach has to look at what his best options are. Even if we know vitoria is slow, he's still our best ccb. Unless someone else improves or he declines enough that this isnt true, he should be considered. 

The giving a chance is more so for cornelius. Since the WC cornelius has improved and vitoria has regressed. To what degree? Is cornelius the better option? how would we assess this? The easiest way is to compare their performances in a match. Was it clear that cornelius has passed vitoria? Nope. Therefore vitoria and cornelius are both to be considered. 

no one is justifying that hes not slow or that hes a new player. The justification is that only vitoria and cornelius and to a less degree kennedy are options at central CB. ZMG, waterman and mcnaughton are downgrades based on today's assessment.  Wouldnt it be crazy to play an inferior player because "we know what we have.... we dont know what the inferior player can do". 

The issue is you keep looking at it with a back 3 (like Biello & Herdman).  We know there are gaps and issues with that system that our squad just can't resolve no matter the combination.  Yet we keep trying to plug it with one tall guy, or one quick guy instead of just doing the math and realizing it does not compute on paper or on the pitch.  There is no magic solution, we don't have the players for that system.

The simple answer is throw that away and find the formula that works.  We already have the best and fastest LB in the world, he can bail out a slow CB on his side.  We've seen him do it a hundred times for Bayern.  Johnston is a solid and quick RB as well, put two stay home tall CB's with composure and you've got a simple system with players in their position, no rocket science.  

At the moment we have one tall guy trying to cover the entire width of the net for two short CB's.  We have one quick RCB trying to cover the entire pitch for two slow CB's.  It does not work, and there is no magic combination or solution.  Even if Cornelius does get used to playing with Miller and Johnston, we still have Johnston out of position and tall guys will stick to him like glue to put the backline off balance.  Quick strikers will stick to Millers side and pull Vitoria out of position.  It's too simple and there is too much tape, teams know how to play us now.

[HochelagaFC]

The problem with Biello and keeping the status quo is that he came out and said that he wants the job and worked « all his life for this opportunity » . 
 

If he wants the job that bad, he has to show every body (the fans, the players, the csa) what he is capable of and take some risk. Right now he is doing a continuity of what was slowly going downhill.
 

Maybe it works and we qualify maybe not. We will see after the Jamaica games but right now he is not showing us why he should get the job over other candidates.
 

 

[Obinna]

Biello won't do anything bold and won't get the CanMNT job. Pretty safe prediction.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, frmr said:

Yes, I was going to highlight Suarez. He was a generational striker, and you know what the only blemish on his career is? Of course you do. I don't really know what we're discussing here—surely you're not suggesting that taking a lot of red cards is a good quality in a striker. It's objectively bad. It hurts the team, period. Does the fact that Zidane headbutted someone in the face make him a better striker? Of course not. It was sheer stupidity and it is a red mark on his otherwise illustrious career. Believe me, if Cavallini scored as many goals as Saurez, Cavani or Totti, I would 100% look past the stupid decisions he makes, but he doesn't. When Cavallini has 1/4 or 1/5 ratio of red cards to goals, he's not worth the risk in my opinion. If that was 1 red card to 30 goals per season, then that's a completely different discussion, but he's not even in the same league as kind of return.

Suárez had serious problems at Barça as well, it was not just one incident, he bit in Netherlands and England, and in Spain was very high strung. I think our virtue at Barça was to harness that, same with when we had Eto'o, or earlier Stoichkov. I love having these guys because they can light a fire under a team, and because they are major distractions to rivals.

It is sort of a hockey analogy, but Jonathan David needs to kick the shit out of someone because those adrenaline boosts are antidotes against scoring droughts. I have looked at this for years, for over a decade, though have yet to do the stats systematically: relatively frequency of the goal scorer getting a yellow after, or the striker getting a yellow then scoring. 

Anyways, you are fundamentally right: no one wants Cavallini coming on and having a brain fart. We want him doing the right thing, smart, maybe irritating the rival and getting them sent off, and if scores, well all the better. I'm down for Cava, Brym, Igbo, David and Larin all scoring vs. Jamaica.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

I remember there was one red card Cavallini got while playing for Whitecaps and thinking that's not even a foul in the EPL

Maeda last night for Celtic. 

This actually hurts the English (and Scottish) clubs in Europe, because the reffing on the island is different. Then they go to Europe and refs interpret differently. Or let's say more consistently. Which is funny because the International Board controls the rules of the game, and the IB is British controlled still.

[Bigandy]

49 minutes ago, costarg said:

The issue is you keep looking at it with a back 3 (like Biello & Herdman).  We know there are gaps and issues with that system that our squad just can't resolve no matter the combination.  Yet we keep trying to plug it with one tall guy, or one quick guy instead of just doing the math and realizing it does not compute on paper or on the pitch.  There is no magic solution, we don't have the players for that system.

The simple answer is throw that away and find the formula that works.  We already have the best and fastest LB in the world, he can bail out a slow CB on his side.  We've seen him do it a hundred times for Bayern.  Johnston is a solid and quick RB as well, put two stay home tall CB's with composure and you've got a simple system with players in their position, no rocket science.  

At the moment we have one tall guy trying to cover the entire width of the net for two short CB's.  We have one quick RCB trying to cover the entire pitch for two slow CB's.  It does not work, and there is no magic combination or solution.  Even if Cornelius does get used to playing with Miller and Johnston, we still have Johnston out of position and tall guys will stick to him like glue to put the backline off balance.  Quick strikers will stick to Millers side and pull Vitoria out of position.  It's too simple and there is too much tape, teams know how to play us now.

I'm not even talking about a back 3. Im talking about having one exhibition game to prepare for qualifying matches. Its absurd to not only get rid of the regular players but also try a new formation. Do you honestly believe trying to implement something completely new with new players with one prep match is the answer for copa qualifications? 

Just look at jamaica. They have great players but many on here argue they underperform due to a lack of chemistry.  I just dont see how its possible to expect a team to function better without proper preparations and arguably inferior players vs using the exact system that won WCQ. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Bigandy

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I think we have a copa america berth to lose. therefore a friendly designed specifically as prep for the qualification match requires realistic experimentation/trying to get the team chemistry back after not playing for a long time. 

Which makes me wonder, once again, why they wouldn't bring in Cavallini for the Japan match.