CNL: Jamaica vs Canada - Saturday, November 18th - 10:30am EST / 7:30am Pacific - Kingston, Jamaica

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, Jack1997 said:

I don’t know why this is what I think when I see that but I hope this means that we only start 1 striker and have Larin Available off the bench. Lineup I hope to see would be a 4-3-3 (keeping it realistic)
Borjan

Johnston Miller Cornelius Davies

Kone Eustaquio Osorio

Buchanan David Millar

Subs:Ahmed, Laryea, LDF, Larin, Piette

If we start 2 strikers away I’ll lose it. 

[Shway]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

JRR over Brym is plain wrong.

Or Bair too.

I could understand that JRR is more of a hold up striker than Brym, but so is Bair and he's been consistently playing. 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Shway said:

Or Bair too.

I could understand that JRR is more of a hold up striker than Brym, but so is Bair and he's been consistently playing. 

I was thinking that also. JRR could have been called due to hold up. Like you say, Bair is developing that in his game too but aside from the fact he's an ocean away he also hasn't been with the NT since 2021 (iirc). Maybe that was working against him (if he was even being considered).

[costarg]

23 hours ago, Obinna said:

I think it will help psychologically that most of these guys have been down there already to play in that environment. Same can't be said for them in the return leg. 

Not sure what you're referring to regarding the part in bold.  Do you think they are worried about playing in Canada?  Quite a few are used to the cold by playing in England, I don't see what else could possibly worry them about playing here, surely not the fans.

[costarg]

9 hours ago, Bigandy said:

This seems blinded by bias. Theres so many arguments for a 3-5-2 and so much evidence that it worked. I personally like a back 4  but its wild to think that a system that won WCQ and had guys tons of time spent on it, would produce a worse result than trying a new system with new and likely inferior players.  The only arguments against the 3-5-2 is that we lost against teams that are better than us and then we act like it was the formations fault we lose to croatia.... Do you think that 3atb held us back in WCQ. We almost went undefeated but do you think we had the quality to win every game 5-0 and its the 3atb that held us back? I just dont understand what your standard for success is? 

As for how preperations can be done. We get the job done against jamaica. Then we have every single camp until the copa to introduce new players and formations from every window moving forward if we want. This can be done slowly. Cornelius and vitoria splitting time (likely having vitoria next to LDF to blood LDF with some experience), guys like saliba or corbeanu keep developing and get call ups as earned. Their time in the camp is likely as bench players and they gain experience until they push to start. Just like herdman did, players can study the new system while away at their clubs. 

My point is that its not a NOW OR NEVER kind of situation. It's also extremely rare for teams to make massive player changes and system changes all at once. If a team does make these massive player changes, its the big nations who have an entirely new generation of top end talent. We dont have that luxury. We would be replacing players with equal or inferior guys in almost every example. 

We played a lot of back-4 soccer during WCQ, we even switched back and forth a lot during matches.  Giving all that success to the 3-5-2 is like having your finger on the scale.  If anything our success stemmed from not having only one system.  That was Herdman's forté, he kept people guessing, at least in the beginning.  We only started to falter when we stuck with only the static 3-5-2. 

Vitoria is a lot older and slower than he was when we started WCQ, just like Hutch was a very different player in 2020 compared to 2022.  We were already worried about Vitoria at the beginning of WCQ, a lot of soccer has been played since and there is a lot of video for opponents to watch.  You do realize that game vs Mexico in Edmonton was 2 years ago right? 

9 hours ago, Bigandy said:

If a team does make these massive player changes, its the big nations who have an entirely new generation of top end talent. We dont have that luxury. We would be replacing players with equal or inferior guys in almost every example. 

Argentina might have more new top end talent to replace the guys that aren't hot, but we also don't have to replace top end talent.  You make it sound like Vitoria is Messi.  Geez man, he was never a great player, even is his prime.  He just happened to be the tallest and among the most composed of our bunch, he was never the irreplaceable guy you make him out to be, just like the rest of the backline.  We know it's weak, denying it just makes it seem like you haven't been watching.  None of our CB's are automatic starters, and one of them isn't even a CB.  The back 3 is not nearly as necessary as you make it.

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

I don’t know why this is what I think when I see that but I hope this means that we only start 1 striker and have Larin Available off the bench. Lineup I hope to see would be a 4-3-3 (keeping it realistic)
Borjan

Johnston Miller Cornelius Davies

Kone Eustaquio Osorio

Buchanan David Millar

Subs:Ahmed, Laryea, LDF, Larin, Piette

So much yes.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

Not sure what you're referring to regarding the part in bold.  Do you think they are worried about playing in Canada?  Quite a few are used to the cold by playing in England, I don't see what else could possibly worry them about playing here, surely not the fans.

I don't necessarily think they are worried about playing in Toronto. Just pointing out it is a new venue for many of their guys, since they weren't part of the team last time. In contrast, many of our guys know the venue, know the pitch, etc. They'll be fans this time, so there's that, but on balance I would like to think our guys overall have a better idea of what they are getting into. As for the English players, yes I doubt the weather will be a factor, but there will be a sense of newness for most of them, coming to Toronto and needing a result. Maybe it's nothing but maybe it helps us slightly to know the pitch and the venue and know what getting a result down there feels like.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I don't necessarily think they are worried about playing in Toronto. Just pointing out it is a new venue for many of their guys, since they weren't part of the team last time. In contrast, many of our guys know the venue, know the pitch, etc. They'll be fans this time, so there's that, but on balance I would like to think our guys overall have a better idea of what they are getting into. As for the English players, yes I doubt the weather will be a factor, but there will be a sense of newness for most of them, coming to Toronto and needing a result. Maybe it's nothing but maybe it helps us slightly to know the pitch and the venue and know what getting a result down there feels like.

Got it, thanks.  Not sure how much of an advantage that gives us if I'm being honest.  Nice pitch, predictable conditions, possibly quite a few Jamaican fans.  I don't feel it's anything their calibre of players haven't already faced several times in their careers.  I mean if it was an awful pitch or threat of a bus hijacking or fans keeping them all night by making noise outside the hotel, it'd be a different story, but I'm pretty confident they'll be well rested and ok with this challenge.

[BearcatSA]

If Javain Brown is starting, just put Buchanan down his side of the pitch.

[Obinna]

9 hours ago, costarg said:

Got it, thanks.  Not sure how much of an advantage that gives us if I'm being honest.  Nice pitch, predictable conditions, possibly quite a few Jamaican fans.  I don't feel it's anything their calibre of players haven't already faced several times in their careers.  I mean if it was an awful pitch or threat of a bus hijacking or fans keeping them all night by making noise outside the hotel, it'd be a different story, but I'm pretty confident they'll be well rested and ok with this challenge.

Agreed. It's pretty vanilla up here compared to most away matches in CONCACAF. Any advantage for us would be marginal at best. The pitch will be very playable no doubt and you probably cannot ask for a more comfortable experience off the field. But (and here is where my hope comes in) it is still an away game for Jamaica with a majority (hopefully) of away fans and for most of the squad it is a new challenge. It's not like they can draw on the last time they came here and got a result, because that was so long ago that none of them were part of the team, which is a very different for us, because on the flip side it's been just two years since we went down there and got a draw. Most of our guys played in that game (some from the bench). I am hoping that means something because we need any advantage we can get, since on paper this is a very even contest.

[Bigandy]

12 hours ago, costarg said:

We played a lot of back-4 soccer during WCQ, we even switched back and forth a lot during matches.  Giving all that success to the 3-5-2 is like having your finger on the scale.  If anything our success stemmed from not having only one system.  That was Herdman's forté, he kept people guessing, at least in the beginning.  We only started to falter when we stuck with only the static 3-5-2. 

Vitoria is a lot older and slower than he was when we started WCQ, just like Hutch was a very different player in 2020 compared to 2022.  We were already worried about Vitoria at the beginning of WCQ, a lot of soccer has been played since and there is a lot of video for opponents to watch.  You do realize that game vs Mexico in Edmonton was 2 years ago right? 

Argentina might have more new top end talent to replace the guys that aren't hot, but we also don't have to replace top end talent.  You make it sound like Vitoria is Messi.  Geez man, he was never a great player, even is his prime.  He just happened to be the tallest and among the most composed of our bunch, he was never the irreplaceable guy you make him out to be, just like the rest of the backline.  We know it's weak, denying it just makes it seem like you haven't been watching.  None of our CB's are automatic starters, and one of them isn't even a CB.  The back 3 is not nearly as necessary as you make it.

I agree about the switching of formations and being flexible. I am not opposed to doing the same in the jamaica game. But your argument is that the status quo doesnt work and a brand new system would churn out better results. I disagree. I'd have no issues if our 3-5-2 morphs into a 4-4-2 with johnston moving to rb and buchanan rw in the middle of the game. 

Youre also cherry picking vitoria which is odd because he was the player i specifically referenced as to replacing him with cornelius. 

Sure its been a while since wcq which is likely why biello played cornelius and vitoria a half. To see how each would fare. 
The obvious choice is to play the best squad and so far, vitoria appears to make our squad better than when cornelius plays. Both the nations league and the japan game showed us how vitoria can calm down our backline. Now, against jamaica his lack of pace may get exposed more so I am more than open to playing Cornelius over him. 

Again, youre manipulating my argument to make it appear im debating different points that are weaker. I am open to replacing vitoria today, I am open to playing systems that the guys have experience with. What I am not open to, is to say that a brand new system with no preparation and bringing massive player changes is NOT likely to produce better result against jamaica. 

i also am against your argument that things have gone wrong since the start of the WC is down to 1. formation and 2. player selection. I firmly believe no changes to our lineup or formation would have resulted in us winning against belguim, croatia, morroco, USA, or Japan. They are simply better teams than us. I think its a manipulative argument to suggest our system and player selection is failing because of those results. 

[Stoppage Time]

18 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

19 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

 I firmly believe no changes to our lineup or formation would have resulted in us winning against belguim, croatia, morroco, USA, or Japan. They are simply better teams than us. I think its a manipulative argument to suggest our system and player selection is failing because of those results. 

 

Was the midfield that Herdman put out against Croatia a good formation choice? I do not think so. I also wonder what one might consider to be positive and effective attributes of our present system, one which has been used for the five losses against the teams mentioned.

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

Was the midfield that Herdman put out against Croatia a good formation choice? I do not think so. I also wonder what one might consider to be positive and effective attributes of our present system, one which has been used for the five losses against the teams mentioned.

I felt JH hurt the squad by switching his formation against Croatia.  I think he believed due to the chances they didn't capitalize on v Belgium, he needed a touch more offense in the second game.  Which opened up our ( injured and slower ) mids and backline and we got deep dicked.  

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Agreed. It's pretty vanilla up here compared to most away matches in CONCACAF. Any advantage for us would be marginal at best. The pitch will be very playable no doubt and you probably cannot ask for a more comfortable experience off the field. But (and here is where my hope comes in) it is still an away game for Jamaica with a majority (hopefully) of away fans and for most of the squad it is a new challenge. It's not like they can draw on the last time they came here and got a result, because that was so long ago that none of them were part of the team, which is a very different for us, because on the flip side it's been just two years since we went down there and got a draw. Most of our guys played in that game (some from the bench). I am hoping that means something because we need any advantage we can get, since on paper this is a very even contest.

I mean obviously we have some advantage playing at home. We have 24 goals for and 3 against since 2019 in Toronto… 6 wins and 1 draw in 7 matches. 
 

Meanwhile Jamaica may want to consider renaming “the office” to “the orifice”. 
 

The negativity surrounding our NT is dumbfounding. Can’t imagine what it would be like if we didn’t make the WC or nations league final… 

 

[MtlMario]

Crystal ball time: Away: 1-1

                             Home: Can 2 Jam 0

[Ottawafan]

Doesn't sound like there will be a large Canadian content at the game in the stands.

[costarg]

38 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I agree about the switching of formations and being flexible. I am not opposed to doing the same in the jamaica game. But your argument is that the status quo doesnt work and a brand new system would churn out better results. I disagree. I'd have no issues if our 3-5-2 morphs into a 4-4-2 with johnston moving to rb and buchanan rw in the middle of the game. 

Youre also cherry picking vitoria which is odd because he was the player i specifically referenced as to replacing him with cornelius. 

Sure its been a while since wcq which is likely why biello played cornelius and vitoria a half. To see how each would fare. 
The obvious choice is to play the best squad and so far, vitoria appears to make our squad better than when cornelius plays. Both the nations league and the japan game showed us how vitoria can calm down our backline. Now, against jamaica his lack of pace may get exposed more so I am more than open to playing Cornelius over him. 

Again, youre manipulating my argument to make it appear im debating different points that are weaker. I am open to replacing vitoria today, I am open to playing systems that the guys have experience with. What I am not open to, is to say that a brand new system with no preparation and bringing massive player changes is NOT likely to produce better result against jamaica. 

i also am against your argument that things have gone wrong since the start of the WC is down to 1. formation and 2. player selection. I firmly believe no changes to our lineup or formation would have resulted in us winning against belguim, croatia, morroco, USA, or Japan. They are simply better teams than us. I think its a manipulative argument to suggest our system and player selection is failing because of those results. 

Honestly, not trying to cherry pick or manipulate anything.  Just calling it the way I see it.  Perhaps I misunderstood, I felt you're all-in on the Miller-Vitoria(Cornelius)-Johnston backline and it is the only way we will win.  I feel it is holding us back.

You seem to feel like we "won" WCQ with that backline, even though many games were played with a different line-up and formation.  I feel we won in spite of it. 

I don't feel we've been playing well since qualifying for the WC, and I honestly don't understand how you can say we have.  Your point about us losing the games we should lose isn't enough for me.  We've had a lot of bad games and have been a complete and disorganized mess, regardless of the results.  We have not played at the level we were seeing 2 years ago with the same players.

 

[FreddyCanuck]

Northern Futbol released their preview episode – Galindo actually speaks on every MNT topic this time – but one of the things he pointed out that caught my attention was Jamaica's set piece threat in recent games.

Obviously they played against teams of varying quality but that'll likely be a problem for us after what we saw against the US in June, so he argued in favour of an Ali-Vitoria-DC back line in the first leg to counter those aerial threats. I just wonder if Vitoria can physically cope with Antonio because it'll likely be him contesting those duels.

Edited November 14, 2023 by FreddyCanuck

[CanadaFan123]

3 minutes ago, FreddyCanuck said:

Northern Futbol released their preview episode – Galindo actually speaks on every MNT topic this time – but one of the things he pointed out that caught my attention was Jamaica's set piece threat in recent games.

Obviously they played against teams of varying quality but that'll likely be a problem for us after what we saw against the US in June, so he argued in favour of an Ali-Vitoria-DC back line in the first leg to counter those aerial threats. I just wonder if Vitoria can physically cope with Antonio because it'll likely be him contesting those duels.

I thought you were referring to Ahmed at first and I was baffled.

[costarg]

23 minutes ago, FreddyCanuck said:

Northern Futbol released their preview episode – Galindo actually speaks on every MNT topic this time – but one of the things he pointed out that caught my attention was Jamaica's set piece threat in recent games.

Obviously they played against teams of varying quality but that'll likely be a problem for us after what we saw against the US in June, so he argued in favour of an Ali-Vitoria-DC back line in the first leg to counter those aerial threats. I just wonder if Vitoria can physically cope with Antonio because it'll likely be him contesting those duels.

I assume by Ali you mean Alistair or Ahmed?  How does that help with Aerial threats?  I agree for DC over Miller, but that's still an issue.  I've played A LOT of CB, I'm 5'10" and I can confirm that tall players would target and stick to me on set pieces since I was often one of the shorter ones.  This is an easy way to destabilize and pull the other defenders out of position.  A huge part of the reason we often look so chaotic defending scrambles in the box.  Everyone finds themselves out of position, chasing ghosts (players and the ball).  

Edited November 14, 2023 by costarg

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Time said:

Was the midfield that Herdman put out against Croatia a good formation choice? I do not think so. I also wonder what one might consider to be positive and effective attributes of our present system, one which has been used for the five losses against the teams mentioned.

The croatia game had a gameplan. It may be flawed but its worthwhile to note the logic of the team set up.
Croatia is strong in the middle and weaker on the outsides. Canada is strong on the outside but horribly weak in the middle. Therefore, lets concede the middle of the field and try to win the wing battle. IMO trying to win the midfield battle was pointless so it was worth a shot to win the wing battle. Was it the right call.... idk as it was semi working until the staq injury. If we fought to win the middle, maybe we lose 6-0... who knows. Im not defending the croatia setup as the correct choice, just explaining the logic i saw JH using. 

3-5-2 logic
Pro's
-our best attackers all suit this formation. Buchanan and davies are most effective as wb. David is best in a 2 striker formation.
- our best CB (at least during wcq) was vitoria. in a back 3 he doesnt have to track runners into channels as much as in a back 4 and his lack of speed is covered somewhat. 
- 3 cb's congests the space between defenders which gives more coverage in the event they are beaten 1v1. With our CB's really weak, its best to reduce space between them to compensate. 
- We ideally want our best players on the field so that means both david and larin. If we still want to have a 3 man midfield with 2 strikers, we need to drop to a back 3 instead of 4. 
-We free up davies to give him more freedom to attack.
-We dont have to play to left footed CBs (assuming vitoria struggles in a back 4). Although now that we have bombito, LDF, JKL, LMN etc, this is less of a concern.
-If teams attack us, we can sit back and counter which is our most effective attacking strategy.

Cons
-we play johnston out of position.
- We dont use wingers.... although we dont have a winger opposite of buchanan who is clearly in our best 11. Millar? Hoilett for 60? 
-We struggle vs a low block. I'm not sure if 4 atb fixes this issue but there is congestion with 2 up top. Perhaps the spacing of our players creates better pockets with one striker and a fullback overlapping a winger. 

To be honest, the pros are easier to come up with than a cons list. Would love to hear more pros or cons. 

[Bigandy]

50 minutes ago, costarg said:

Honestly, not trying to cherry pick or manipulate anything.  Just calling it the way I see it.  Perhaps I misunderstood, I felt you're all-in on the Miller-Vitoria(Cornelius)-Johnston backline and it is the only way we will win.  I feel it is holding us back.

You seem to feel like we "won" WCQ with that backline, even though many games were played with a different line-up and formation.  I feel we won in spite of it. 

I don't feel we've been playing well since qualifying for the WC, and I honestly don't understand how you can say we have.  Your point about us losing the games we should lose isn't enough for me.  We've had a lot of bad games and have been a complete and disorganized mess, regardless of the results.  We have not played at the level we were seeing 2 years ago with the same players.

 

I personally am a 4 atb guy. I just think that we are not at the point of, "rip everything apart and throw a hail mary" when it comes to 3-5-2 and our player selection. 

I cant see how we could win WCQ in spite of a formation. That suggest we are soooo good that we wouldve ran away with qualifying if we played 4 atb. We didnt even expect to qualify for the WC so its pretty bold to assume winning WCQ was underachieving because we were held back by a formation. 

I also havnt said we have been playing well. The results are as expected. The performances have been underwhelming. However, we have had less prep time than most opponents (no friendlies), many key players are out of form or injured, our federations a mess, we had a coach on the outs and now a new coach, played against teams who use a low block (which we hardly encountered in WCQ), and most critically IMO we havent had a fit staq. - staq wasnt healthy during the WC, He missed japan, and wasnt he recently back (and out of form) for the nations league final. 

theres so many factors that contribute to the underwhelming performances that are not formation based. Im still open to criticizing the 3atb, but its being implied that 3atb is the reason we have lost to superior teams and is the reason we are out of sync. 

[Bigandy]

33 minutes ago, FreddyCanuck said:

Northern Futbol released their preview episode – Galindo actually speaks on every MNT topic this time – but one of the things he pointed out that caught my attention was Jamaica's set piece threat in recent games.

Obviously they played against teams of varying quality but that'll likely be a problem for us after what we saw against the US in June, so he argued in favour of an Ali-Vitoria-DC back line in the first leg to counter those aerial threats. I just wonder if Vitoria can physically cope with Antonio because it'll likely be him contesting those duels.

Oddly enough, wikipedia says antonio is only 5'11". Obviously his speed and strength is a concern to vitoria, but surely vitoria wins the match up aerially. 

[FreddyCanuck]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

I assume by Ali you mean Alistair or Ahmed?  How does that help with Aerial threats?  I agree for DC over Miller, but that's still an issue.  I've played A LOT of CB, I'm 5'10" and I can confirm that tall players would target and stick to me on set pieces since I was often one of the shorter ones.  This is an easy way to destabilize and pull the other defenders out of position.  A huge part of the reason we often look so chaotic defending scrambles in the box.  Everyone finds themselves out of position, chasing ghosts (players and the ball).  

AJ is obviously the weak spot in that back line aerially, but DC is good in the air and we know Vitoria is capable as well. Definitely more ideal than having Kamal Miller as the LCB.

[InglewoodJack]

19 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

I don’t know why this is what I think when I see that but I hope this means that we only start 1 striker and have Larin Available off the bench. Lineup I hope to see would be a 4-3-3 (keeping it realistic)
Borjan

Johnston Miller Cornelius Davies

Kone Eustaquio Osorio

Buchanan David Millar

Subs:Ahmed, Laryea, LDF, Larin, Piette

Would prefer to see Adekugbe or Hoilett as a sub over Piette, but if they field the lineup as you have it and include those exact subs, then I'm over the moon.