Canada and the U17 World Cup: Nov 10 to Dec 2 in Indonesia

[red card]

 

[red card]

 

[dyslexic nam]

Looking forward to the game tomorrow morning.  I definitely enjoy watching our youth teams.  May be influenced by coaching my son’s team for years but I can definitely appreciate well-played youth ball.   

[red card]

Rollins/Grossi NextPod podcast did a preview of the tourney. They had interview clips of Olivieri and a some players from TFC. Then, they interviewed Charles Boehm of mlssoccer.com for a look at the US team.

Newish items that surfaced were Biello & Stefanovic will be co-captains. Team arrived in Indonesia on Oct 30th. Adjusting to heat & humidity. Had scrimmage vs the US.

Herdman’s philosophy of tactical flexibility and tactical excellence in 4 phases have been adopted by Olivieri. At this age, group has changed drastically over the past year. So, similar players but not the same team as seen in qualifying. 

Ongoing conversations with duals but time wasn’t right for them to be part of the squad. Key factor is having players with pro minutes. Players have been getting to know each other over the past year via 4 camps/tourneys. 

USA: Has at least built a passable framework of a development pathway. Big donut hole is moving top academy players to playing against grown men. MLSNP is a reserve league+ created to fill this hole. But not every club is using MLSNP for this purpose. Cited the Crew as one club that is giving kids a chance via MLSNP. 

US team has a mix of domestic and international players pushing for pro minutes. Even a few years ago, this wasn’t seen at the US u20 level. Pace, power & athleticism being institutionally favoured is starting to be eroded by MLS academy system. Baseline expectation is get out of the group while playing with a coherent structure. Given group, they can finish in top 2 but can also finish last. Ceiling for US youth teams has been quarters. 

If you want to listen to it on your podcast platform, you'll have to wait till tomorrow. But available now on 24th minute substack.

https://24thminute.substack.com/p/u17-world-cup-preview

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by red card

[narduch]

Mali beat Uzbekistan 3-0 in the other game in our group.

In Group A Morroco beat Panama 2-0

[narduch]

Interesting tidbit in the broadcast of the Canada v Spain game.

The FIFA U17 tournament will become a yearly event. 

[narduch]

.....

Edited November 10, 2023 by narduch

[Kent]

https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/olivieri-these-boys-want-to-make-u17-world-cup-history

From the interview with Olivieri at the end of that article, he was asked about the style of play we will use. I was curious to see what he would say given what I know about the style of play we used today. He said we are going to play with an identity, and with concepts and with principles. So he did not answer the question.

He was also asked if we should expect any of the players at this tournament to potentially represent Canada at the 2026 World Cup on home soil. Of course he said it absolutely could happen (what else could he say). He then asked the rhetorical question of how many players on the 2022 team were young enough that they could have played U17 or U20 a few years prior. So I'm going to answer that rhetorical question. Ismael Kone would have turned 17 in 2019, 3 years before the 2022 World Cup, so maybe he would have been young enough? That's it for potential U17 grads. For U20, Tajon Buchanan and Liam Millar turned 20 in 2019, Alphonso Davies and Jonathan David turned 19 in 2019.

And a random thing. I rewatched the highlights of Canada's draw against England in 2011 U17 World Cup. Of course I could vividly remember Quillan Roberts goal in that game, but I couldn't remember the other, so that's why I wanted to rewatch the highlights. I didn't remember/realize that the England keeper that game was Jordan Pickford! Now has 56 caps for the senior team.

[narduch]

Spain beat Mali 1-0 in the earlier game 

[InglewoodJack]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:51 PM, Kent said:

https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/articles/olivieri-these-boys-want-to-make-u17-world-cup-history

From the interview with Olivieri at the end of that article, he was asked about the style of play we will use. I was curious to see what he would say given what I know about the style of play we used today. He said we are going to play with an identity, and with concepts and with principles. So he did not answer the question.

He was also asked if we should expect any of the players at this tournament to potentially represent Canada at the 2026 World Cup on home soil. Of course he said it absolutely could happen (what else could he say). He then asked the rhetorical question of how many players on the 2022 team were young enough that they could have played U17 or U20 a few years prior. So I'm going to answer that rhetorical question. Ismael Kone would have turned 17 in 2019, 3 years before the 2022 World Cup, so maybe he would have been young enough? That's it for potential U17 grads. For U20, Tajon Buchanan and Liam Millar turned 20 in 2019, Alphonso Davies and Jonathan David turned 19 in 2019.

And a random thing. I rewatched the highlights of Canada's draw against England in 2011 U17 World Cup. Of course I could vividly remember Quillan Roberts goal in that game, but I couldn't remember the other, so that's why I wanted to rewatch the highlights. I didn't remember/realize that the England keeper that game was Jordan Pickford! Now has 56 caps for the senior team.

Perhaps the most important player on the pitch for Canada that game, and all because he’s probably going to ensure England won’t need a new keeper for at the very least the next decade, so players like Goodman, I guess Tom McGill too if he ever plays, have no choice but to come over to us if they want a shot at international soccer.

[Watchmen]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't really think the u17 is the best tournament to evaluate long-term talent.  It's an age range where there's still an enormous amount of development going on (physically and mentally/emotionally) and regardless of country there's a huge volume of players who play at the u17 event and then do nothing (or virtually nothing) professionally.  It's also not a great indicator of future full NT success.  Over the last 20 years, your winners have been Brazil (twice), Mexico (twice), Nigeria (3 times), Switzerland, and England, and while none of those teams are bad the number of WC winners from those countries has been zero.

Anyway, I'm disappointed Canada hasn't done better and disappointed for the players.  It's just not the reason I'm concerned about the long term prospects.

[gigi riva]

4 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't really think the u17 is the best tournament to evaluate long-term talent.  It's an age range where there's still an enormous amount of development going on (physically and mentally/emotionally) and regardless of country there's a huge volume of players who play at the u17 event and then do nothing (or virtually nothing) professionally.  It's also not a great indicator of future full NT success.  Over the last 20 years, your winners have been Brazil (twice), Mexico (twice), Nigeria (3 times), Switzerland, and England, and while none of those teams are bad the number of WC winners from those countries has been zero.

Anyway, I'm disappointed Canada hasn't done better and disappointed for the players.  It's just not the reason I'm concerned about the long term prospects.

I agree Watchmen  I think U20s is a better tournament ti evaluate long term talent .  

[kacbru]

23 minutes ago, gigi riva said:

I agree Watchmen  I think U20s is a better tournament ti evaluate long term talent .  

What does that say when we can't even qualify for the U20 tournament!

[Watchmen]

8 minutes ago, kacbru said:

What does that say when we can't even qualify for the U20 tournament!

And that's a bigger concern.  I've brought it up somewhere on the forum before, but the U20 is a much better indicator of the direction of your NT.  The U17 and U23/Olympics can still be entertaining (and high profile for some countries, in the case of the Olympics), but it's the U20 that is the better indicator of the direction of the program.

I remember reading it in relation to the US program, as there was a period of time where their U20 program was doing poorly (2009 - 18th, 2011 - missed tournament, 2013 - 22nd) and it culminated in them missing the 2018 WC entirely. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Watchmen

[gigi riva]

Canada is a young Country, and a even younger Soccer Nation ,

[One American]

It's true the US U20s were bad in that era. But the U17s were worse!

 

It seems like Canada's problem isn't bad development overall, but bad something with the youth national team program. It seems like Canada's players appear out of nowhere. They just show up in the MLS Superstar one day. 

The USMNT has it's share of Matt Turners, Stu Holdens, etc. who appear out of nowhere. But the USYNT does a lot of heavy lifting. 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by One American

[El Hombre]

12 hours ago, kacbru said:

What does that say when we can't even qualify for the U20 tournament!

 

12 hours ago, gigi riva said:

I agree Watchmen  I think U20s is a better tournament ti evaluate long term talent .  

I find it tough to evaluate talent at both U17 and U20 levels.  This is mostly because these levels depend on quality coaching when playing internationally more than at the U23 and senior level.

An unfortunate byproduct of our development is that most of our youth, while very talented, are very naive in terms of footballing IQ.  This is mostly because our academies do not spend enough time (any?) developing this side of the game.  This means that in order to have success on the international stage, Canadian coaches should be drilling tactics and game plan into our kids which is not happening.  These kids haven't spent enough time by this age in real professional environments where they are comfortable to improvise or adapt, so they should be relying on structure.  This is something we haven't had in a long time at the youth level which is why I think we haven't been successful and our players look lost.

So rather than being able to use youth World Cups to springboard our kids into better environments, we're caught in a loop where 2 or 3 kids will make a breakthrough professionally in 5 years and the rest will fade away.  There will also be those players that have been overlooked at the youth level that will come out of the woodwork and become exceptional professionals.  This is how it's been for the last decade and a half and without change at the top, that's the best we can hope for. There's no point trying to project at this level based on individual performances because the team performance is so dire.

[Kent]

Well, we scored a goal today. Your move New Caledonia!

[Unnamed Trialist]

The Uzbeks took out England, 2-1… hanging in over 13 min of stoppage time and a late red. All power to them. I'd like to see how they battled it out. 

Three of the 8 quarter finalists from our group, I guess we didn't realize it was the group of death.

[Kent]

The others from our group that UT alluded to is Spain beating Japan 2-1, and Mali beating Mexico 5-0.

[Unnamed Trialist]

17 minutes ago, Kent said:

The others from our group that UT alluded to is Spain beating Japan 2-1, and Mali beating Mexico 5-0.

Thanks, I think I must have posted that on the Mali thread.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Semi finals are set, after France beat Senegal on penalties after a scoreless draw (seems they don't do extra periods in this competition, straight to penalties, not sure about semis or final).

Germany - Spain

Mali - Morocco

Brazil - Argentina

France - Uzbekistan

There will be at least one European, South American and African team in semis.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Semis on the 28th are Argentina vs Germany and Mali v France. All  quarters were 1-0 except Argentina blowing out Brazil.

Saw Spain unable to threaten Germany, the attack was ineffective, but the German goal was off a very iffy penalty, surely a dive.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[red card]

FIFA put out some stats on the players at the tourney.

There is a physical maturity bias as 85% of the players were born in 2006. The proportion born in the first quarter of 2006 was 44.1%. Mali is the only team in which players born in the first quarter of the year are not over-represented.

80% of the players play for clubs whose senior teams compete in the top divisions of national leagues. At 68%, CAF was the lowest amongst the Confeds. This is largely due to the existence of clubs who are exclusively focused on developing young players. Examples include Mali’s Académie JMG, which develops players for senior club FC Guidars, and Morocco's Mohammed VI Academy, which develops players for all Moroccan clubs.

The number of clubs represented within each squad varies significantly, from 8 (Ecuador and Uzbekistan) to 18 (US). Canada had most players from 1 club while the US had the least.

TFC & Senegal's AS Generation Foot had the most players. Founded in 2000 as a youth academy, they won their first senior Senegalese league title in 2017, and have won two more since. Barcelona was next at 9.

Edited November 30, 2023 by red card

[SpursFlu]

After watching this tournament play out, I think its safe to say we were all a little harsh

Edited December 1, 2023 by SpursFlu