Canada and the U17 World Cup: Nov 10 to Dec 2 in Indonesia

[InglewoodJack]

9 hours ago, Borjans Sweatpants said:

I think this is important to keep in mind when thinking about players that aren't on the list. Like mentioned, most members of the squad are on Canadian based teams. I remember some of those European guys getting some decent game time (Pop in particular, but Higazy and de Sa as well). Joses Chukwu was reportedly training with Hertha Berlin earlier in the year as well, though not sure that turned into anything. Love seeing a 15 year old with the squad though (Richard Chukwu). Speaking of:

 

Yeah, I thought of the Chukwu trialing with Berlin thing- it probably doesn't make sense for some of these European based players to take a week or two off from their club to go and play a few friendlies. Also, is Kevin Khan in the mix for the U17s or is he too young? I know he's either an '08 or '09- he's one of the names I noticed not on the list.

[Bigandy]

13 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

Which is why the CSA needs to hold more camps per year so as to see these players on the pitch and not just in some maybe reliable scouting notebook.

I 100% agree but for sedin I am not using CSA as a measuring stick. I am using his next league 1, next pro and mls minutes against comparable players his age. If he is a special talent who deserves to play more minutes or is better than league 1, than the fault lies with the whitecaps coaching staff, not CSA.  If he isnt a special talent, but still a good prospect, then theres nothing wrong with his current development schedule, but I wouldnt label him as a "special talent" at this point.

[Borjans Sweatpants]

5 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Yeah, I thought of the Chukwu trialing with Berlin thing- it probably doesn't make sense for some of these European based players to take a week or two off from their club to go and play a few friendlies. Also, is Kevin Khan in the mix for the U17s or is he too young? I know he's either an '08 or '09- he's one of the names I noticed not on the list.

Khan looks to be an 08, so same age as R. Chukwu (few months younger I guess). So probably not an age thing, just not as much in the mix. 

[Jack1997]

How many pro players does the USA have? Canada has 3 Tahid, Stefanovic and Taverneir and I would say Tahid and Stefanovic have significant professional minutes, I’d expect the US teams would be deeper than us but is their top end better? 

[Soccerpro2]

2 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

How many pro players does the USA have? Canada has 3 Tahid, Stefanovic and Taverneir and I would say Tahid and Stefanovic have significant professional minutes, I’d expect the US teams would be deeper than us but is their top end better? 

They always are by far at the u17 level.

[Footyeh]

8 hours ago, Jack1997 said:

How many pro players does the USA have? Canada has 3 Tahid, Stefanovic and Taverneir and I would say Tahid and Stefanovic have significant professional minutes, I’d expect the US teams would be deeper than us but is their top end better? 

Every single one of them have significant pro minutes.  They will also leave off kids with extensive pro experience.  

[harrycoyster]

16 hours ago, Footyeh said:

Every single one of them have significant pro minutes.  They will also leave off kids with extensive pro experience.  

Only if you count the glorified u19 league that is NextPro. A number of American u15s have minutes already if that's the threshold. None of their players have broken through in MLS or in Europe.

Edited September 22, 2023 by harrycoyster

[InglewoodJack]

What kind of pro experience do the USMNT kids have? I'm looking through their roster, and most are at MLS academies and a few european academies as well- they have one kid who plays regularly in USL which is a high level, and I think one of their keepers recently made Barcelona's bench? But it seems like they mostly play in MLS NP.

[VinceA]

21 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

What kind of pro experience do the USMNT kids have? I'm looking through their roster, and most are at MLS academies and a few european academies as well- they have one kid who plays regularly in USL which is a high level, and I think one of their keepers recently made Barcelona's bench? But it seems like they mostly play in MLS NP.

Yeah their strength is their U20 program and up generally have all pros but the U17 team, while having some great prospects like Cruz Medina is still mostly academy kids.

[InglewoodJack]

22 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Yeah their strength is their U20 program and up generally have all pros but the U17 team, while having some great prospects like Cruz Medina is still mostly academy kids.

I guess that could be an advantage the CPL has over the USL- CPL is at a level where it's easier for kids to get pro minutes vs. USL is more of a true minor league with a lot more road dogs- journeymen in their mid to late 20s who are on their latest stop across the world. Won't pretend I know much about the US set up, but from what I know about the guys we have and the level they play at, we stack up pretty nicely with the US.

[VinceA]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

I guess that could be an advantage the CPL has over the USL- CPL is at a level where it's easier for kids to get pro minutes vs. USL is more of a true minor league with a lot more road dogs- journeymen in their mid to late 20s who are on their latest stop across the world. Won't pretend I know much about the US set up, but from what I know about the guys we have and the level they play at, we stack up pretty nicely with the US.

I will say I'm surprised there aren't more 16 and 17 year olds in MLSNP just due to the amount of clubs in the league.

Or maybe there are but the USYNT aren't calling them up.

[Footyeh]

10 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Only if you count the glorified u19 league that is NextPro. A number of American u15s have minutes already if that's the threshold. None of their players have broken through in MLS or in Europe.

Call it what you want but they have 30+ kids 16/17 years old playing regular minutes in that league.  Why aren't our Canadian teams playing the young kids if the level is low?  How is it that Toronto and Vancouver are near the bottom of their respective tables if they are fielding older teams against glorified U19 teams of the American clubs?  

If you look at their player pool, they have a 16 year old kid from Philadelphia leading the entire MLSNP in Assists (4 goals 9 assists) and he hasn't even been involved with the national team.  They have plenty of options, there players are MUCH further along than ours.

[Footyeh]

8 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I guess that could be an advantage the CPL has over the USL- CPL is at a level where it's easier for kids to get pro minutes vs. USL is more of a true minor league with a lot more road dogs- journeymen in their mid to late 20s who are on their latest stop across the world. Won't pretend I know much about the US set up, but from what I know about the guys we have and the level they play at, we stack up pretty nicely with the US.

CPL is lower than USL and player fewer young kids than USL teams.  Literally all CPL has to do is copy the USL blueprint for taking top young talents, giving them real minutes (1000+ minutes a year) until they are of age to be sold to Europe.  

[Stoppage Time]

31 minutes ago, Footyeh said:

CPL is lower than USL and player fewer young kids than USL teams.  Literally all CPL has to do is copy the USL blueprint for taking top young talents, giving them real minutes (1000+ minutes a year) until they are of age to be sold to Europe.  

Can CPL compete with salary to attract most of the top young talents in the first place? And, how long should a CPL club keep a promising young player such as Tahid or Nimeck?  Thanks.

[Footyeh]

6 minutes ago, Stoppage Time said:

Can CPL compete with salary to attract most of the top young talents in the first place? And, how long should a CPL club keep a promising young player such as Tahid or Nimeck?  Thanks.

Salary has never been an issue.  USL teams are identifying youth players across the US and paying them $2000/mo to sign for 2-3 years.  The kids who get pushed and sold will reap the big benefits down the line when they are sold (can even benefit from portion of transfer fee).  CPL teams have just been hesitant to sign young players, they keep hiding behind these development contracts which in all honesty are useless.  Young players are what's going to make the CPL sustainable in the long term, they should be adjusting the salary cap/roster rules to accommodate and/or incentivize the signings of kids like TJ Tahid.

TJ has to be sold at earliest possibility (18), anything else is just risking his value.  Nimick is 23, he's not young.  

[Stoppage Time]

40 minutes ago, Footyeh said:

 Young players are what's going to make the CPL sustainable in the long term, they should be adjusting the salary cap/roster rules to accommodate and/or incentivize the signings of kids like TJ Tahid.

TJ has to be sold at earliest possibility (18), anything else is just risking his value.  Nimick is 23, he's not young.  

Agreed. Certainly, focusing on top young players is better than signing marginal older guys be they Canadian or otherwise. This requires improved scouting, it would seem, by CPL scouts although I am sure that there presently is a scouting system. Not so long ago, I was recommending players to the old Swangard era Whitecaps and two were signed with great success. Funny thing is that I was never as scout - just an observant fan. There must be a great many people now who are better qualified than I ever was to scout young talent in Canada. Who, though, I wonder, is scouting a city like Surrey for CPL clubs? Tahid was found across the river in Maple Ridge (I think) so that is good.

[nolando]

4 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

Agreed. Certainly, focusing on top young players is better than signing marginal older guys be they Canadian or otherwise. This requires improved scouting, it would seem, by CPL scouts although I am sure that there presently is a scouting system. Not so long ago, I was recommending players to the old Swangard era Whitecaps and two were signed with great success. Funny thing is that I was never as scout - just an observant fan. There must be a great many people now who are better qualified than I ever was to scout young talent in Canada. Who, though, I wonder, is scouting a city like Surrey for CPL clubs? Tahid was found across the river in Maple Ridge (I think) so that is good.

Niall Thompson, the VFC assistant, was a longtime Surrey United coach and was coaching the top youth players for their BCSPL sides as recently as December. Could still very well be for all I know. I would presume they've got that region well covered though.

He was watching my son's BCSPL match just last weekend, even while VFC were kicking off vs Calvary.

VMSL sides like BB5 and Tigers, as well as the obvious talent pools like TSS Rovers, have lots of gems. I personally feel there are quite a few local guys that would easily be upgrades on the likes of Kwak and Bakare.

[red card]

Scuffed podcast had their youth experts provide their take on the US u17 World Cup players. Unlike other US commentators and the fanbase who get too excited about their youth, these 2 guys (especially Mike Hartman) provide a realistic assessment.

Only about half the podcast is available as the rest is for paid members where they look at 6 specific players.

 

Defining the Value of a Class: Hartman said 2-3 should raise the ceiling of the national team pool. 10-12 should become pros to raise the floor or push the back end of the pool. Chairez said these numbers are too optimistic especially given the US ceiling/floor has risen starting with the spike seen in 98-00. So, his defintion of a good class is 1-2 players who can raise the ceiling and 6 floor raisers.

Individual Player Potential: Hartman says it is a single blue chip class via a goalkeeper in Barcelona system. 5-6 can play above replacement level. Get scared after that. 

Broader context is that of top 20 2006 players, only 5-6 will maybe on World Cup squad. That's because 5 have been cap tied by other countries which included a mention for Stefanovic. Ex Mexican players, they're not plussed by this since these players have weak American links and not likely to play for senior national teams like Spain. The other 10 aren't rated by the US manager due to some head scratching decisions.

San Jose player Cruz Medina's hype is over as he has struggled to impact matches as he aged up. Maybe won't even make World Cup squad. MLSNP is providing an earlier look at how 16 year olds can (usually not) influence matches against older players. 

Apparently, the news around 2007-09 birth years are more encouraging.

World Cup Potential: Clear deficiencies in this class. Not deep at every position. No explosive playmaker. Age group lacks athleticism and physicality. Chairez is excited to see how some players match up against higher level competition but overall not terribly optimistic.

Pool has 1 player with 100+ mins in MLS with DCU backline and 1 player with cameo level MLS minutes. Manager doesn't rate DCU player, so not likely to be selected. Keyrol Figueroa who did well in qualifying has leg injury and may not be ready for World Cup. No #9 depth behind him and manager hasn't called up any replacements.

Team played recently in Czechia tourney. Barely beat Ukraine and lost handily to the Swiss & Czechia. Given talent deficiencies, they played not that badly. Team was mix of good prospects + players who showed they don't belong. Learnings were pool doesn't have much depth that is ready for prime time.

 

https://scuffed.simplecast.com/episodes/433-the-u17s-and-the-talent-pipeline-with-hartman-chairez

 

 

 

 

[blueseeka]

This facrbook post made me smile.  These are such great moments for families. Let's go boys

[Dominic94]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:27 PM, Footyeh said:

Salary has never been an issue.  USL teams are identifying youth players across the US and paying them $2000/mo to sign for 2-3 years.  The kids who get pushed and sold will reap the big benefits down the line when they are sold (can even benefit from portion of transfer fee).  CPL teams have just been hesitant to sign young players, they keep hiding behind these development contracts which in all honesty are useless.  Young players are what's going to make the CPL sustainable in the long term, they should be adjusting the salary cap/roster rules to accommodate and/or incentivize the signings of kids like TJ Tahid.

TJ has to be sold at earliest possibility (18), anything else is just risking his value.  Nimick is 23, he's not young.  

The CPL seems to be slowly learning that there is a market for 21 and under, not much of one for 22 and over, they will keep selling some of the 22-25 range but never more than the 1-2 range we see now.

[nolando]

Any news or images from the U17 camp?

[Stoppage Time]

2 hours ago, nolando said:

Any news or images from the U17 camp?

This is Canada, Nolando. We must be realistic in our wishes. 😆

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

On 9/15/2023 at 2:26 PM, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Friday, September 29th

Sunday, October 1st.

Both games will be at 3pm local

2pm Eastern / 11am Pacific

Edited September 29, 2023 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[Club Linesman]

3 hours ago, nolando said:

Any news or images from the U17 camp?

[toontownman]

CSA