Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[BearcatSA]

It would be "interesting" (for want of a far better word) if they stayed with Biello until December of 2025 when Herdman and his staff bail from TFC and he is brought back as the "pioneer" of the program to lead the way for the hosting of the 2026 World Cup.

 

[Cheeta]

It'll take a bigger name than Bobby or Tommy Junior to keep me from losing my shit if an international rookie is hired to lead the Canadian Men's National team into 2026.  Much, much bigger.

Golden generation and a once in a lifetime golden opportunity and someone, anyone, wants to roll the dice on a rookie?  On who from where?

Budget constraints or no I think CSA HQ is aiming higher.  And rightly so.

 

[Kadenge]

54 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

It would be "interesting" (for want of a far better word) if they stayed with Biello until December of 2025 when Herdman and his staff bail from TFC and he is brought back as the "pioneer" of the program to lead the way for the hosting of the 2026 World Cup.

 

I think many of us came to the conclusion that after the performances at the  WC and CNL finals,  we needed a manager with a higher tactical ability to move the team to the next level. I don't see JH returning.

[BearcatSA]

10 hours ago, Kadenge said:

I think many of us came to the conclusion that after the performances at the  WC and CNL finals,  we needed a manager with a higher tactical ability to move the team to the next level. I don't see JH returning.

I'd have to go back in past threads to refresh my memory but Herdman's sudden hiring as MNT manager was a shocker, so this would be similar. And there are several examples of NT managers getting encore second stints (granted sometimes for desperation reasons, like trying to salvage flailing WCQ campaigns and they had been found wanting at the end of their first appointment in the job.

For me, it definitely shouldn't happen in this situation.  But what we conclude is irrelevant to what the real power players in this set up conclude, and out of the blue (no pun intended, honestly!)) things can and have happened in other scenarios.  And it always seems to be in the back of mind my ever since this organization gassed Zambrano:  which outside the box move might happen next?

 

Edited April 20 by BearcatSA

[Joe MacCarthy]

To put it into terms I can understand, it would be like hiring the coach of, let's say, the Oshawa Generals to coach our Olympic hockey team.  And that coach hasn't head coached a team above the OHL.  Anything's possible and to be honest I am getting  one of my vibes that Smyrniotis (like Herdman) could do it but it's highly unlikely.

BTW, I never realized there were so many teams in the CHL with so many long term recognizable names.  There was only one I didn't know, the Wenatchee Wild.

[Kadenge]

39 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

To put it into terms I can understand, it would be like hiring the coach of, let's say, the Oshawa Generals to coach our Olympic hockey team.  And that coach hasn't head coached a team above the OHL.  Anything's possible and to be honest I am getting  one of my vibes that Smyrniotis (like Herdman) could do it but it's highly unlikely.

BTW, I never realized there were so many teams in the CHL with so many long term recognizable names.  There was only one I didn't know, the Wenatchee Wild.

Every coaching hire is a risk despite credentials.  But given what's in front of the CMNT: 2 high level friendlies, Copa & WC26, if the CSA were to hire a coach without the appropriate level of experience to match or exceed the talent level of the team then that's a serious issue off the bat. The stakes are too high and there's not enough time to get it wrong. 

[InglewoodJack]

41 minutes ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

To put it into terms I can understand, it would be like hiring the coach of, let's say, the Oshawa Generals to coach our Olympic hockey team.  And that coach hasn't head coached a team above the OHL.  Anything's possible and to be honest I am getting  one of my vibes that Smyrniotis (like Herdman) could do it but it's highly unlikely.

BTW, I never realized there were so many teams in the CHL with so many long term recognizable names.  There was only one I didn't know, the Wenatchee Wild.

IIRC Mark Habscheid coached the Canadian team to a world championship gold and silver in ‘04 & ‘05 with nothing but CHL experience and I believe there are others as well. I think the CHL is a relatively higher quality hockey league than the CPL is soccer but also our national hockey team, even at short handed tournaments like the WC is so stacked that the coaching mandate is “just don’t mess this up”.  Coach K also coached the US national basketball team for years as an NCAA lifer, but same argument and also, he’s one of the all time great basketball coaches. 
 

For me, the biggest argument against Smyrniotis is just that we need a coach who gets players excited to play for us. Someone with some level of European pedigree or international success might have an easier time getting everyone on board than a guy who has never coached outside of Canada. I know a lot of players respect Bobby and maybe he could make it work, but I think there are better options.

I know we like shitting on Canada soccer and for good reason, but given the slate of games we have on the schedule- the friendlies, Copa, the home field World Cup, just the direction the program seems to be headed in since Kevin Blue took over, it would be strange to me if we went with a local guy instead of the beat available. It does genuinely feel like we’re headed in the right direction.

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

To put it into terms I can understand, it would be like hiring the coach of, let's say, the Oshawa Generals to coach our Olympic hockey team.  And that coach hasn't head coached a team above the OHL.  Anything's possible and to be honest I am getting  one of my vibes that Smyrniotis (like Herdman) could do it but it's highly unlikely.

BTW, I never realized there were so many teams in the CHL with so many long term recognizable names.  There was only one I didn't know, the Wenatchee Wild.

The Wild are new this year. Winnipeg Ice relocated there after last year, I believe. 

[toontownman]

4 hours ago, Cheeta said:

It'll take a bigger name than Bobby or Tommy Junior to keep me from losing my shit if an international rookie is hired to lead the Canadian Men's National team into 2026.  Much, much bigger.

Golden generation and a once in a lifetime golden opportunity and someone, anyone, wants to roll the dice on a rookie?  On who from where?

Budget constraints or no I think CSA HQ is aiming higher.  And rightly so.

 

These are names that absolutely should be in the mix for a revamped coaching team, assistants, taking charge of the youth programs, u20s etc. I'm cool with Bobby being groomed to take over in 2026 learning from someone experienced too.

For all the reasons you said and more, we have to give the players a coach their potential deserves. This is a huge moment in time for our programs.  

Appointing a subpar coach negates almost everything else that is positive. 

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Ivan said:

The Wild are new this year. Winnipeg Ice relocated there after last year, I believe. 

From Edmonton to Cranbrook to Winnipeg and now Wenatchee, replacing the former BCHL (and former USHL) franchise there

[Bigandy]

As much as we complain about herdmans lack of tactical acumen, he actually was fine IMO. 

He implemented a 3-4-3 and 3-5-2 to cover our lack of CB's, was able to switch formations from game to game and in game (mostly with a 4-4-2). He utilized aggressive pressing in mexico and a low block vs the USA. He got players to study his systems while they were in their clubs. 

His high aggression play dominated belguim but a lack of individual quality and speed cost us a counter attack goal. 

A borjan blunder and a long ball over miller cost us vs morocco. Both a lack of individual quality but we didnt get outplayed tactically. 

The only important match thats up for debate... and when all this "JH is bad tactically" started, is the croatia game and only because he didnt play 3 midfielders. We had an out of form and still injured oso, an extremely fresh and raw kone, an old and injured hutch, an injured staq, MAK and piette out of season and fraser. Anyone who thinks the result wouldve been different if we sat larin for another midfielder is kidding themselves. 

I say this to point out that, yes we want to grow and improve on JH as a coach. However, the tactical acumen of the next manager doesnt need to be astronomically better to compete at the highest level. The quality of players is much more important. 

The new coach for me needs to:
1. Have a clear tactical identity for the team.
2. Be strong at recruiting duals.
3. Keep the team chemistry and motivation high
 

It's international footy, we cant achieve radical tactical evolution in short periods of time together. No international team does. 

Is deschamps all that great tactically? Make it hard for the opponents to score and then let your world class stars be creative and score. They had 34% possession vs croatia in 2018. Simple tactics and world class players. 

[Ruud]

At this point what’s the risk of keeping Biello for a two year contract and axing him if we get zero wins for the rest of 2024 or when a better option presents itself ?   Circle back to Nancy if he wins a second MLs cup ?

Edited April 19 by Ruud

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, Ruud said:

At this point what’s the risk of keeping Biello for a two year contract and axing him if we get zero wins for the rest of 2024 or when a better option presents itself ?   Circle back to Nancy if he wins a second MLs cup ?

Loss of team identity and motivation. Extremely poor performances. lack of bonus prize money from copa, lower chances of signing duals. Lost time with an elite coach who couldve prepped our golden generation for 26 and 30 world cups. 

All of these risks are for any coaches who lose every single game. Maybe Biello is the right guy. However, the philosophy of "may as well sign him because whats the worst that can happen" is a poor hiring decision IMO. Theres interest in the job so no point in giving biello the job before a comprehensive search is completed. 
 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

As much as we complain about herdmans lack of tactical acumen, he actually was fine IMO. 

He implemented a 3-4-3 and 3-5-2 to cover our lack of CB's, was able to switch formations from game to game and in game (mostly with a 4-4-2). He utilized aggressive pressing in mexico and a low block vs the USA. He got players to study his systems while they were in their clubs. 

His high aggression play dominated belguim but a lack of individual quality and speed cost us a counter attack goal. 

A borjan blunder and a long ball over miller cost us vs morocco. Both a lack of individual quality but we didnt get outplayed tactically. 

The only important match thats up for debate... and when all this "JH is bad tactically" started, is the croatia game and only because he didnt play 3 midfielders. We had an out of form and still injured oso, an extremely fresh and raw kone, an old and injured hutch, an injured staq, MAK and piette out of season and fraser. Anyone who thinks the result wouldve been different if we sat larin for another midfielder is kidding themselves. 

I say this to point out that, yes we want to grow and improve on JH as a coach. However, the tactical acumen of the next manager doesnt need to be astronomically better to compete at the highest level. The quality of players is much more important. 

The new coach for me needs to:
1. Have a clear tactical identity for the team.
2. Be strong at recruiting duals.
3. Keep the team chemistry and motivation high
 

It's international footy, we cant achieve radical tactical evolution in short periods of time together. No international team does. 

Is deschamps all that great tactically? Make it hard for the opponents to score and then let your world class stars be creative and score. They had 34% possession vs croatia in 2018. Simple tactics and world class players. 

My concern with JH was never about preparation or tactical planning for a game.  He seemed pretty meticulous in that respect. The biggest piece for me - and an element that I think we truly need in a coach - is the ability to be flexible and make in-game adjustments.   That is an area where I never really saw John display strength.  We would occasionally make adjustments but it seemed pre-planned and sometimes even a bit tone-deaf to the ebb and flow of the actual game unfolding at the time.  

Kudos to him for ensuring we always went into a game with a clear plan.  But there have been numerous times where that plan was clearly not working the way we had hoped and I never really saw us respond and adjust in a way that stemmed the bleeding.   And especially in the international game, where single tournament or qualification games can have significant impacts, that is a pretty essential quality.   

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

As much as we complain about herdmans lack of tactical acumen, he actually was fine IMO. 

Much of the tactical comments are debatable, but dead horse and all. 

Even if we want to give him a "fine" on the tactical side, the more concerning issue was the team morale and absence of "running through brick walls" we were seeing earlier.  That era had clearly passed.  That might explain the players dropping a level in quality, focus and intensity.

Herdman's last 10 were 4W 4L and 2D.  One could say we lost the matches we should have lost, but we also tied some matches we should have won.

Biello stands at 2 and 2.  We can also say expected results, cause we know Jamaica is a much improved team to what we saw in WCQ.  

So, I feel we haven't really fixed or improved anything with Biello.  We turned the page but have yet to see tactical win and morale hit new highs.

59 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Loss of team identity and motivation. Extremely poor performances. lack of bonus prize money from copa, lower chances of signing duals. Lost time with an elite coach who couldve prepped our golden generation for 26 and 30 world cups. 

All of these risks are for any coaches who lose every single game. Maybe Biello is the right guy. However, the philosophy of "may as well sign him because whats the worst that can happen" is a poor hiring decision IMO. Theres interest in the job so no point in giving biello the job before a comprehensive search is completed. 
 

100%.

[top cheese]

It's possible a CPL coach could be successful with the National Team but in the big picture, it looks like CS is having difficulty making a top-notch hire. I don't imagine the job is desirable for most reputable candidates. You can say the opportunity is there to participate in a COPA and a WC but with the expanded field for both tournaments, you're not poaching a quality coach from another National Team. So while people might not be enthralled with TH and FL they might be the type of names that are realistic for this program. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Honest question from someone who hasn't been able to see CPL much until recently:

 

What are the qualities that the two CPL coaches provide that Biello does not?  (With full disclosure, I haven't been thrilled with some of Biello's tactics myself.)

[narduch]

On 4/12/2024 at 3:56 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^describes a marginal rather than a critical contribution but no doubt still thinks he is rebutting what I wrote above in some way and people wonder why I talk about goalposts being moved on here. If you went back five to ten years on this subforum the impetus behind CanPL was the notion that deserving Canadian players were being denied opportunities to play in MLS and that CanPL was critical to nurture national team level Canadian talent for that reason. Having 0 out of 60 CanPL players in preliminary major tournament rosters holes that whole notion beneath the waterline.

Beyond that if it wasn't for the Nationalist agenda involved with its launch, CanPL still could have been a lot more useful for the Canadian MLS development pathway than it has turned out to be if affiliate clubs had been allowed. That was actively blocked by Bob Young & Co so most of the best prospects in terms of CMNT youth team selections are still in MLS academies and MLS Next Pro instead. Why hand over the CMNT sponsorship revenues from 2026 if the league in question wasn't going to work cooperatively with the three MLS academies that were and still are doing most of the heavy lifting on elite merit rather than pay-to-play based youth development?

As for TJ and Tavernier et al, clubs like the Ottawa Fury and FC Edmonton existed without the CSB deal and the need to have CMNT and CWNT revenue streams signed over for 20 years lock, stock and barrel. That was described by Victor Montagliani as "scraps off the American table" but the reality is that there was no actual need to hand over the family silver in CSA terms through the CSB deal to facilitate the marginal influence on national team roster depth expansion that is being described above. What is being described probably would have been happening anyway if there had been no sanctioning moratorium back around 2010 and more USL clubs had emerged in Canada.

I'll be watching CanPL this weekend through my Onesoccer subscription. I have no problem with a domestic pro league existing. What I am pointing out in all of this is that there is no compelling logical reason why CMNT revenues should be handed over to a league like that. CMNT revenues should be used first and foremost to boost the national team programs not prop up something else.

Interesting that James Easton himself, the guy you often like to site, has noted that pushing all our best players to the 3 MLS clubs is not enough for proper player development. 

 

[Aird25]

51 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Honest question from someone who hasn't been able to see CPL much until recently:

 

What are the qualities that the two CPL coaches provide that Biello does not?  (With full disclosure, I haven't been thrilled with some of Biello's tactics myself.)

They both have maintained a greater than 50% win record over 5 seasons in the league with very positive goal differentials. Bobby's got a decent record against top central American and Caribbean teams well. They've both identified and developed current national team players that were missed by pro academies, helping them move on to successful careers.

I hate playing against Tommy's sides. They stifle teams and force them into mistakes. Bobby's teams seem to play more expansive football, but both have been successful. I have no clue how either would do with the national team but I'm not convinced you need to have coached at the highest level in order to put together a winning team.

[narduch]

12 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

They both have maintained a greater than 50% win record over 5 seasons in the league with very positive goal differentials. Bobby's got a decent record against top central American and Caribbean teams well. They've both identified and developed current national team players that were missed by pro academies, helping them move on to successful careers.

I hate playing against Tommy's sides. They stifle teams and force them into mistakes. Bobby's teams seem to play more expansive football, but both have been successful. I have no clue how either would do with the national team but I'm not convinced you need to have coached at the highest level in order to put together a winning team.

And quite honestly they both deserve a shot at MLS too. But it's tough to get a gig in that league when some teams prefer awful managers like Phil Neville.

Edited April 20 by narduch

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

7 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

They both have maintained a greater than 50% win record over 5 seasons in the league with very positive goal differentials. Bobby's got a decent record against top central American and Caribbean teams well. They've both identified and developed current national team players that were missed by pro academies, helping them move on to successful careers.

I hate playing against Tommy's sides. They stifle teams and force them into mistakes. Bobby's teams seem to play more expansive football, but both have been successful. I have no clue how either would do with the national team but I'm not convinced you need to have coached at the highest level in order to put together a winning team.

I really think we could do some business with the players we have as a pressing team. David is one of the deceptively best I have seen and Davies near the top of the pitch has every tool to be the top tier. Generally we have guys coming into their athletic prime. 

I bring it up because I think we need a coach that can demand that work (or other things) from a player like Davies, or Buchanan, or Kone.  I think, like you, a big resume for the sake of it doesn't get you a lot - even if you can pay for it.  The only thing I would say is given the limited time in international football, someone who instantly demands respect is a such a big bonus. 

Biello maybe gets a bit because he been through the really good and bad with them but is lacking in a number of other key areas. 

[Aird25]

10 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I really think we could do some business with the players we have as a pressing team. David is one of the deceptively best I have seen and Davies near the top of the pitch has every tool to be the top tier. Generally we have guys coming into their athletic prime. 

I bring it up because I think we need a coach that can demand that work (or other things) from a player like Davies, or Buchanan, or Kone.  I think, like you, a big resume for the sake of it doesn't get you a lot - even if you can pay for it.  The only thing I would say is given the limited time in international football, someone who instantly demands respect is a such a big bonus. 

Biello maybe gets a bit because he been through the really good and bad with them but is lacking in a number of other key areas. 

Agreed. I think we could do well with a strongly organized press given our personnel. I also agree that the manager needs to command respect. I think it's less likely a CPL coach gets the role because of the dispute and the comments from the players, but with Bobby having preciously coached some of the bigger names on the side, and so much of the team being from southern Ontario, maybe it could work if they go to bat for him. I think it's less likely the fans give him a reasonable chance if he didn't find success right away

[Sal333]

17 hours ago, Ruud said:

At this point what’s the risk of keeping Biello for a two year contract and axing him if we get zero wins for the rest of 2024 or when a better option presents itself ?   Circle back to Nancy if he wins a second MLs cup ?

Unfortunately, Nancy's contract was extended. He was my #1 candidate.

Edited April 20 by Sal333

[Unnamed Trialist]

Responding to many on the CPL managers: just how ambitious are they? 

My view is that if you want to coach a national team, you have to have shown you were dead set on moving up the coaching ladder, with bigger clubs, harder challenges, and higher salary ambitions. Neither have shown this. Compare with the great variety of other candidates we have seen here, almost all of whom have no problem bouncing around, giving something a shot in a different country.

Neither are very young, they are both at a time in their careers where they could make a push for something bigger, but it is not clear they have. Both seem to want to live where they are and, in Bobby's case, make himself very available for those few jobs that come up that would ensure he could still sit on his own back porch in the evening. 

For me, if you are making upward of 100,000 as a CPL coach, which could be the case for either, that is great. Neither has done a single thing to prove they are intent on rising in their careers and reaching greater heights as MLS coaches, in Europe, for distant national teams. That is why, as I see it, neither deserve to be considered a candidate for Canada. They are both too cushy, and that is a lack of leadership.

[Sal333]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Interesting that James Easton himself, the guy you often like to site, has noted that pushing all our best players to the 3 MLS clubs is not enough for proper player development. 

 

Actually, he doesn't say 3 MLS teams but two (Vancouver and Toronto). Montreal was still a cipher in Saputo's chequebook.