Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[youllneverwalkalone]

I wouldn't be against JVS but Christensen, like his countryman in the Carlsberg ads, is better. Better Spanish, better English, better record with a lesser National side, and likely much cheaper.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I am thinking that precisely the people the CSA has to speak to, counselling them on this decision, are those invested in Biello, or afraid to say anything against him. As is the case with the players, who I suspect are biting their tongues.

Anyone close, like Stalteri, DeVos, may be reticent to speak against Mauro and strongly advise on changing our manager. So I suspect we have non-professionals at the CSA, like Crooks, Blue, who are not getting the right advice, and are not able to move forward. 

This is clearly a mistake, as would be going to an outside agency, which in soccer terms is totally ridiculous. Every federation in the world has a list of potential candidates, and has the internal knowledge to make a decision on a new manager within a few weeks. 

Has to be said: Herdman was hired to remake the entire coaching structure at the CSA and was in charge of it, and he left leaving us a close to zero legacy in this respect. We are back to step one.

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

 

Has to be said: Herdman was hired to remake the entire coaching structure at the CSA and was in charge of it, and he left leaving us a close to zero legacy in this respect. We are back to step one.

His legacy was to install Olivieri as the head of youth teams. 🙃

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am thinking that precisely the people the CSA has to speak to, counselling them on this decision, are those invested in Biello, or afraid to say anything against him. As is the case with the players, who I suspect are biting their tongues.

Anyone close, like Stalteri, DeVos, may be reticent to speak against Mauro and strongly advise on changing our manager. So I suspect we have non-professionals at the CSA, like Crooks, Blue, who are not getting the right advice, and are not able to move forward. 

This is clearly a mistake, as would be going to an outside agency, which in soccer terms is totally ridiculous. Every federation in the world has a list of potential candidates, and has the internal knowledge to make a decision on a new manager within a few weeks. 

Has to be said: Herdman was hired to remake the entire coaching structure at the CSA and was in charge of it, and he left leaving us a close to zero legacy in this respect. We are back to step one.

If I'm the new CEO, hired to turn things around,and that's an understatement, I would speak to incumbents as a matter of courtesy/politics but certainly not restrict it to  opinions/advice from the "old guard" who were part of the debacle. CEO's are hired by Public cos not necessarily because of their industry knowledge/specializations but their ability to run/turn organizations around by making sound business and organizational decisions. Not difficult in today's world to get connected with the right people/ counsel.

[Bigandy]

On 4/6/2024 at 8:21 AM, archer21 said:

I understand sponsorship is not currently (and hasn’t historically) been a big factor. Maybe I worded my post poorly, but I meant that it could or should be a large revenue stream. The fact that sponsors have never really supported the program is a big reason we’re in this situation to begin with.

Thats a great point. It's a little bit of a spend money to make money situation IMO. 

We need to get popularity to get sponsors. A domestic pro league and a WC are critical to do this. So maybe the CSB deal isnt the best negotiating we have ever done. Are the secondary benefits like producing more players, generating popularity etc enough to compensate for the discrepancy of what we are paid vs what we think is fair value? As of today and past history, I overwhelmingly say yes. If sponsorship increases to 20 mill next year, then it may be time to reevaluate. 

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am thinking that precisely the people the CSA has to speak to, counselling them on this decision, are those invested in Biello, or afraid to say anything against him. As is the case with the players, who I suspect are biting their tongues.

Anyone close, like Stalteri, DeVos, may be reticent to speak against Mauro and strongly advise on changing our manager. So I suspect we have non-professionals at the CSA, like Crooks, Blue, who are not getting the right advice, and are not able to move forward. 

If I'm one of the core guys (Davies, David, Eustaquio, etc), I don't think I'm afraid to speak against Biello. They can't be dropped and so wouldn't fear reprisals if what they have to say about him is negative.

As well, I think Stalteri, DeVos, etc wouldn't necessarily side with him. Everyone understands he was given the job on a temporary basis, there's no one there responsible for hiring him full time (and thus having a more vested interest in his continuing on).

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

If I'm one of the core guys (Davies, David, Eustaquio, etc), I don't think I'm afraid to speak against Biello. They can't be dropped and so wouldn't fear reprisals if what they have to say about him is negative.

As well, I think Stalteri, DeVos, etc wouldn't necessarily side with him. Everyone understands he was given the job on a temporary basis, there's no one there responsible for hiring him full time (and thus having a more vested interest in his continuing on).

You may be right, but it is still hard to be a person going behind Biello's back to get him removed. It is not comfortable for anyone. And more so since he seems like a good guy, if he was irascible or mistreated players it might be different.

An FA has to be over and above these little battles of egos going on, this or that aspiring candidate with his rep lobbying for him. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

13 hours ago, Bigandy said:

...A domestic pro league and a WC are critical to do this. So maybe the CSB deal isnt the best negotiating we have ever done...

^^^begs the question of how exactly CanPL, as opposed to the three Canadian MLS clubs, is critical in this context where the CMNT is concerned when the two Canadian World Cup venues are going to be MLS stadia and no CanPL players feature when 60 strong preliminary rosters are named before major tournaments. In contrast, MLS can easily provide at least a third of the players in that sort of context and has a much higher profile in mainstream media sports coverage terms where domestic pro soccer is concerned. The word marginal rather than critical comes to mind on CanPL's level of impact so there is no obvious logical compelling reason why the CSA should be linking CMNT revenue streams to CSB and CanPL beyond it having been a former president's pet hobby horse project.

[Ivan]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^begs the question of how exactly CanPL, as opposed to the three Canadian MLS clubs, is critical in this context where the CMNT is concerned when the two Canadian World Cup venues are going to be MLS stadia and no CanPL players feature when 60 strong preliminary rosters are named before major tournaments. In contrast, MLS can easily provide at least a third of the players in that sort of context and has a much higher profile in mainstream media sports coverage terms where domestic pro soccer is concerned. The word marginal rather than critical comes to mind on CanPL's level of impact so there is no obvious logical compelling reason why the CSA should be linking CMNT revenue streams to CSB and CanPL beyond it having been a former president's pet hobby horse project.

Certainly does not beg the question.  Anyone who would even consider asking a question like that has no idea about the development of a pro player and feeder system in any country, let alone our own.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If you say so Einstein. Most of the national team level pro-development is still happening through the three MLS academies and L1O level stuff like Sigma or Vaughan Azzuri would still be there doing their thing if CanPL had never launched. It's basically delusional to suggest that CanPL is somehow critical to Canada having a World Cup finals level quality roster when qualification for Qatar happened largely off the back of what had happened on the development of pro players before the league had even launched,

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If you say so Einstein. Most of the national team level pro-development is still happening through the three MLS academies and L1O level stuff like Sigma or Vaughan Azzuri would still be there doing their thing if CanPL had never launched. It's basically delusional to suggest that CanPL is somehow critical to Canada having a World Cup finals level quality roster when qualification for Qatar happened largely off the back of what had happened on the development of pro players before the league had even launched,

I mean NCAA and non Canadian MLS clubs had a far bigger impact on our qualification than the 3 Canadian MLS clubs. That doesn't mean they have no value either.

To just stand on your laurels and laud the status quo is silly.

Sure the level of play isn't as high as everyone had hoped immediately. But these things need time to build.

I still think we are better off now than what we had in 2018. And it will hopefully continue to get better 

[Ottawafan]

44 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If you say so Einstein. Most of the national team level pro-development is still happening through the three MLS academies and L1O level stuff like Sigma or Vaughan Azzuri would still be there doing their thing if CanPL had never launched. It's basically delusional to suggest that CanPL is somehow critical to Canada having a World Cup finals level quality roster when qualification for Qatar happened largely off the back of what had happened on the development of pro players before the league had even launched,

I don't see CPL and it's players as having any role or impact on the roster heading into 2026.  I do see the value going forward as a much better tool than NCAA and one day perhaps rival some of the MLS youth development.  Way too many talented kids end up going the 2A route only to get lost in the shuffle.  It is not a good brand of soccer nor a preferred route to developing players.  Hopefully CPL will continue to attract quality youth and incorporate them into their fold.  The more opportunity Canadian kids have to play and develop at home, the better.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Before the goalposts are moved any further please bear in mind that what I was pointing out is that CanPL isn't critical to the success of the CMNT so linking CMNT revenues to CSB is very difficult to justify on a logical basis that doesn't revolve around appeals to raw nationalism. If people could see beyond D1 and D2 sanctionings for once and look at it from the national team roster's sort of perspective it's basically analogous to the USSF using USMNT revenues to prop up USL at the expense of being able to operate national team programs properly when MLS is doing most of the heavy lifting on national team player development. In per capita population terms there are basically as many MLS franchises in Canada as there are in the United States.

Edited April 11 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bison44]

Linking revenues, proping up hobby horse projects....FFS.  Ummm, tell me you hate the CPL without actually saying it.

They bought the rights for cash.  Not siphoning, not stealing, not diverting etc.  Its a basic concept.  You think its a bad deal...fine.   You think imaginary buyer X would have paid more or given a better deal or CSA would have done better on their own (newsflash we all think they wouldnt have).  So you shit on the CPL every chance you get.  Do you really think the MLS clubs were doing such a good job..ie how do so many CMNT players come strictly through NCAA then?  You really think we didnt need more pathways, more teams then just the MLS clubs??  And before you get the chance to play the victim let me help you out, boo hoo i am being persecuted...utter nonsense, moving goalposts, drivel, blah blah blah, more and lamer excuses why I wish Halifax, Calgary, Hamilton etc all never got pro teams.  

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If you say so Einstein. Most of the national team level pro-development is still happening through the three MLS academies and L1O level stuff like Sigma or Vaughan Azzuri would still be there doing their thing if CanPL had never launched. It's basically delusional to suggest that CanPL is somehow critical to Canada having a World Cup finals level quality roster when qualification for Qatar happened largely off the back of what had happened on the development of pro players before the league had even launched,

How dare you insult me. 😄

Very disingenuous of you to ignore the fact that some of that 60 initially developed in the CPL, rather than stating none of the current 60 are in the CPL. 

[Bigandy]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^begs the question of how exactly CanPL, as opposed to the three Canadian MLS clubs, is critical in this context where the CMNT is concerned when the two Canadian World Cup venues are going to be MLS stadia and no CanPL players feature when 60 strong preliminary rosters are named before major tournaments. In contrast, MLS can easily provide at least a third of the players in that sort of context and has a much higher profile in mainstream media sports coverage terms where domestic pro soccer is concerned. The word marginal rather than critical comes to mind on CanPL's level of impact so there is no obvious logical compelling reason why the CSA should be linking CMNT revenue streams to CSB and CanPL beyond it having been a former president's pet hobby horse project.

What an odd take.... And then to follow it up with insulting Ivans intelligence. 

I respect that you have a different opinion even if I strongly disagree with it. 

I don't respect when you mislead facts (CPL developed players on the 60 man roster) and insult people. Take that nonsense somewhere else.

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Before the goalposts are moved any further please bear in mind that what I was pointing out is that CanPL isn't critical to the success of the CMNT so linking CMNT revenues to CSB is very difficult to justify on a logical basis that doesn't revolve around appeals to raw nationalism. 

I think most people recognize that the CPL's contribution to the national team is not something that will bear fruit immediately.  It has modest salary budgets and for at least the near term is going to be a developmental league where some of the impacts will take time to materialize as youth players mature into seasoned pros.  

But even with those caveats, the current pool of national team players features guys like MacNaughton and Waterman who got their first pro minutes in CPL.  

 

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...it's basically analogous to the USSF using USMNT revenues to prop up USL at the expense of being able to operate national team programs properly when MLS is doing most of the heavy lifting on national team player development. In per capita population terms there are basically as many MLS franchises in Canada as there are in the United States.

It isn't analogous because MLS has carved off the three biggest markets in Canada but is otherwise not impacting the rest of the country in terms of pro opportunities.  And per capita coverage doesn't  matter because  Canada and the US need to find the same number of high level players who can populate a national team.  3 MLS teams can't effectively do that in isolation when you consider scouting, youth development, opportunities for emerging pros, and then consistent challenges for honing seasoned veterans.   Right now MLS has fairly exclusive domestic domain on the last one, but the others are all open to substantial impacts by CPL.  To help support a national team (which is one of the key benefits of a domestic league or even the sort of hybrid approach evolving in Canada) we will benefit from fully national coverage.  

For me, those benefits warrant support for CPL.  You can take issue with the specifics of the agreement (and I have made no secret of the fact that I am baffled by certain alleged elements of it) but I think there is a fairly clear case to be made that national team (and thus CSA) revenues can and should be used to support a fully domestic pro league that isn't beholden to the authority of a competing regional soccer Federation.

[Watchmen]

40 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think most people recognize that the CPL's contribution to the national team is not something that will bear fruit immediately.  It has modest salary budgets and for at least the near term is going to be a developmental league where some of the impacts will take time to materialize as youth players mature into seasoned pros.  

But even with those caveats, the current pool of national team players features guys like MacNaughton and Waterman who got their first pro minutes in CPL.  

 

It isn't analogous because MLS has carved off the three biggest markets in Canada but is otherwise not impacting the rest of the country in terms of pro opportunities.  And per capita coverage doesn't  matter because  Canada and the US need to find the same number of high level players who can populate a national team.  3 MLS teams can't effectively do that in isolation when you consider scouting, youth development, opportunities for emerging pros, and then consistent challenges for honing seasoned veterans.   Right now MLS has fairly exclusive domestic domain on the last one, but the others are all open to substantial impacts by CPL.  To help support a national team (which is one of the key benefits of a domestic league or even the sort of hybrid approach evolving in Canada) we will benefit from fully national coverage.  

For me, those benefits warrant support for CPL.  You can take issue with the specifics of the agreement (and I have made no secret of the fact that I am baffled by certain alleged elements of it) but I think there is a fairly clear case to be made that national team (and thus CSA) revenues can and should be used to support a fully domestic pro league that isn't beholden to the authority of a competing regional soccer Federation.

Honestly, my thought is that the contributions to the national team by the CPL will probably always be modest. The bigger impact to me is the opportunity for cities outside "the big 3" to have the opportunity to support/watch live football. It grows the sport and expands the bubble, and gets more casual fans invested in the sport in general.

[Bigandy]

17 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Honestly, my thought is that the contributions to the national team by the CPL will probably always be modest. The bigger impact to me is the opportunity for cities outside "the big 3" to have the opportunity to support/watch live football. It grows the sport and expands the bubble, and gets more casual fans invested in the sport in general.

Although I agree, our floor will constantly be expanding (maybe not growing) with the waterman, loturi, farsi, sirios, mcnaughtons etc. 

It gives MLS youngsters a viable loan option to improve. 

And the most exciting of all. Is a guy like TJ or tarvenier who could become top players and can play pro ball at the age of 16.  

If the cpl produces 1 floor guy, 1 mls youngster a loan and 1 16 year old elite prospect per season, that would be immense for the national team. 

[dyslexic nam]

19 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Honestly, my thought is that the contributions to the national team by the CPL will probably always be modest. The bigger impact to me is the opportunity for cities outside "the big 3" to have the opportunity to support/watch live football. It grows the sport and expands the bubble, and gets more casual fans invested in the sport in general.

I'm not so sure.  If it can get to a point where sustainable financing will ensure continued, league-wide developmental opportunities for young Canadians, and if they can demonstrate that they are a legitimate pipeline into other markets (whether domestic or European) then I can see lots of talented young Canadian kids using that pathway.  At that point, it is just the laws of probability that some of those kids will develop into solid pros.  Even when you look at our current crop of elite players, it is very realistic that Davies could have played with and FC Edmonton type team in his early days, or David with an Atletico Ottawa.  None of this takes away from the MLS pathway which has yielded, and continues to yield, positive results for the CMNT.  But to say that CPL can't serve an important role for future national team players?  I am not so sure. 

Having said that, I do agree with your identified benefit - that is a big deal in a country where footy has historically been well behind other mainstream sports. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Although I agree, our floor will constantly be expanding (maybe not growing) with the waterman, loturi, farsi, sirios, mcnaughtons etc. 

It gives MLS youngsters a viable loan option to improve. 

And the most exciting of all. Is a guy like TJ or tarvenier who could become top players and can play pro ball at the age of 16.  

If the cpl produces 1 floor guy, 1 mls youngster a loan and 1 16 year old elite prospect per season, that would be immense for the national team. 

^^^describes a marginal rather than a critical contribution but no doubt still thinks he is rebutting what I wrote above in some way and people wonder why I talk about goalposts being moved on here. If you went back five to ten years on this subforum the impetus behind CanPL was the notion that deserving Canadian players were being denied opportunities to play in MLS and that CanPL was critical to nurture national team level Canadian talent for that reason. Having 0 out of 60 CanPL players in preliminary major tournament rosters holes that whole notion beneath the waterline.

Beyond that if it wasn't for the Nationalist agenda involved with its launch, CanPL still could have been a lot more useful for the Canadian MLS development pathway than it has turned out to be if affiliate clubs had been allowed. That was actively blocked by Bob Young & Co so most of the best prospects in terms of CMNT youth team selections are still in MLS academies and MLS Next Pro instead. Why hand over the CMNT sponsorship revenues from 2026 if the league in question wasn't going to work cooperatively with the three MLS academies that were and still are doing most of the heavy lifting on elite merit rather than pay-to-play based youth development?

As for TJ and Tavernier et al, clubs like the Ottawa Fury and FC Edmonton existed without the CSB deal and the need to have CMNT and CWNT revenue streams signed over for 20 years lock, stock and barrel. That was described by Victor Montagliani as "scraps off the American table" but the reality is that there was no actual need to hand over the family silver in CSA terms through the CSB deal to facilitate the marginal influence on national team roster depth expansion that is being described above. What is being described probably would have been happening anyway if there had been no sanctioning moratorium back around 2010 and more USL clubs had emerged in Canada.

I'll be watching CanPL this weekend through my Onesoccer subscription. I have no problem with a domestic pro league existing. What I am pointing out in all of this is that there is no compelling logical reason why CMNT revenues should be handed over to a league like that. CMNT revenues should be used first and foremost to boost the national team programs not prop up something else.

Edited April 12 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

21 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^describes a marginal rather than a critical contribution but no doubt still thinks he is rebutting what I wrote above in some way and people wonder why I tak about goalposts being moved on here. If you went back five to ten years on this subforum the impetus behind CanPL was the notion that deserving Canadian players were being denied opportunities to play in MLS and that CanPL was critical to nurture national team level Canadian talent for that reason. Having 0 out of 60 CanPL players in preliminary major tournament rosters holes that whole notion beneath the waterline.

Beyond that if it wasn't for the Nationalist agenda involved with its launch, CanPL still could have been a lot more useful for the Canadian MLS development pathway than it has turned out to be if affiliate clubs had been allowed. That was actively blocked by Bob Young & Co so most of the best prospects in terms of CMNT youth team selections are still in MLS academies and MLS Next Pro instead. Why hand over the CMNT sponsorship revenues from 2026 if the league in question wasn't going to work cooperatively with the three MLS academies that were and still are doing most of the heavy lifting on elite merit rather than pay-to-play based youth development?

As for TJ and Tavernier et al, clubs like the Ottawa Fury and FC Edmonton existed without the CSB deal and the need to have CMNT and CWNT revenue streams signed over for 20 years lock, stock and barrel. That was described by Victor Montagliani as "scraps off the American table" but the reality is that there was no actual need to hand over the family silver in CSA terms through the CSB deal to facilitate the marginal influence on national team roster depth expansion that is being described above. What is being described probably would have been happening anyway if there had been no sanctioning moratorium back around 2010.

I'll be watching CanPL this weekend through my Onesoccer subscription. I have no problem with a domestic pro league existing, what I am pointing out in all of this is that there is no compelling logical reason why CMNT revenues should be handed over to a league like that. CMNT revenues should be used first and foremost to boost the national team programs not prop up something else.

You've been reminded of this countless times already, but 5 to 10 years ago the national team was often filled with players that were unattached. Of course the commentary would be different.

The CPL has already helped develop quite a few national team level players waterman, loturi, farsi, sirios, mcnaughton, abzi, Alghamdi etc. and the level of youth players they are attracting continues to improve. We'll have quite a few youth national team players that will be competing in CPL this season

[narduch]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

You've been reminded of this countless times already, but 5 to 10 years ago the national team was often filled with players that were unattached. Of course the commentary would be different.

The CPL has already helped develop quite a few national team level players waterman, loturi, farsi, sirios, mcnaughton, abzi, Alghamdi etc. and the level of youth players they are attracting continues to improve. We'll have quite a few youth national team players that will be competing in CPL this season

3 players at the last U20 qualifying in February were from the CPL.

But I guess that's marginal

[dyslexic nam]

51 minutes ago, narduch said:

3 players at the last U20 qualifying in February were from the CPL.

But I guess that's marginal

Just continued confirmation bias.  We have national-level youth players now coming from CPL (and I expect this to trend upward over time) and senior national team players who have come through CPL. 

But somehow that doesn't warrant credit because we used to have an incoherent patchwork of lower tier clubs that historically provided some degree of developmental opportunity.  

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Just continued confirmation bias.  We have national-level youth players now coming from CPL (and I expect this to trend upward over time) and senior national team players who have come through CPL. 

But somehow that doesn't warrant credit because we used to have an incoherent patchwork of lower tier clubs that historically provided some degree of developmental opportunity.  

I recall the best performers in the last Olympic (U23) qualifying were also the CPL guys. Outperforming the MLS players and guys from highly regarded Euro academies.