Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[themodelcitizen]

Hervé Renard is back available?? I've been beating the drum for a while and not just because he'll get soccer moms even more flushed than Herdman did

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 hours ago, phil03 said:

I think the key on any message board is to play the ball, not the player, so to speak.

To take an exemple from this very thread: its ok to believe that Smyrniotis' accomplishments with Forge are massive enough that he should be in consideration and that saying he doesn't have the experience needed is not accurate. Its also ok to believe that someone need to have experience with clubs at the kind of level which a player need to play to be consider at the CMNT these days and/or at a national team where at least some of the players play at such a level, or at least to have gotten results against such teams, to deserve to be considered.

What isn't conducive to a healthy discussion on the subject IMO is when people start launching personal insults, insinuate that people who disagree with them don't care enough and/or are not sincere or say they only think the way they do because (insert something they said about the CPL somewhere else in the forum).

People's opinions are fair game. People themselves shouldn't be.

Damn, I thought people's opinions on football were a direct reflection of their moral core (odd how I don't even think that's funny).

Edited April 3 by Unnamed Trialist

[toontownman]

8 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Hervé Renard is back available?? I've been beating the drum for a while and not just because he'll get soccer moms even more flushed than Herdman did

I think not until after the Olympics or did he leave early?

 

[themodelcitizen]

11 hours ago, toontownman said:

I think not until after the Olympics or did he leave early?

 

Yeah, you're right

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2024/hes-100-with-us-kadidiatou-diani-rejects-herve-renard-criticism/

I think he's on about 400K a year (in Euros) there, Herdman was on what, 300-400K Canadian? Might be out of our (newly revised) budget especially with some of the African teams willing to throw cash at him

[toontownman]

3 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

Yeah, you're right

https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2024/hes-100-with-us-kadidiatou-diani-rejects-herve-renard-criticism/

I think he's on about 400K a year (in Euros) there, Herdman was on what, 300-400K Canadian? Might be out of our (newly revised) budget especially with some of the African teams willing to throw cash at him

Herdman was on $700,000 apparently. Not sure if that got debunked but that was the word around the world cup.

[youllneverwalkalone]

https://www.givemesport.com/88084015-world-cup-2022-what-are-the-wages-of-every-manager-at-the-tournament/

 

[kacbru]

2 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

https://www.givemesport.com/88084015-world-cup-2022-what-are-the-wages-of-every-manager-at-the-tournament/

 

Imagine paying Berhalter over 1M pounds!

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

https://www.givemesport.com/88084015-world-cup-2022-what-are-the-wages-of-every-manager-at-the-tournament/

 

https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/SportsArchive/We-can-t-hire-Herv-Renard-because-of-his-wages-GFA-1914683

Herve Renard making the same for the french womens team as herdman did for CMNT. If he's interested, he would theoretically be around our budget. 

[JAVIERF]

Scaloni is a group of coaches it is divided by a dozen 

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, JAVIERF said:

Scaloni is a group of coaches it is divided by a dozen 

There is ambiguity in a lot of those figures, in many cases the pay is for the entire coaching staff, as you suggest, or the head manager is a part of the total figure paid for the 3-4 coaches.

[Shway]

15 hours ago, Bigandy said:

https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/SportsArchive/We-can-t-hire-Herv-Renard-because-of-his-wages-GFA-1914683

Herve Renard making the same for the french womens team as herdman did for CMNT. If he's interested, he would theoretically be around our budget. 

However Mr Blue indirectly made it seem like that money that was left by JH isn't there for the new coach.

 There's absolutely no way you confirm the debt that is reported, increase taxes to the kids and continue in the same structure.

 Anybody with a " name " willing to coach Canada will probably be paid 300-400k CAD.

It's a reason why I won't be shocked to hear what would be underwhelming news to many.

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, Shway said:

However Mr Blue indirectly made it seem like that money that was left by JH isn't there for the new coach.

 There's absolutely no way you confirm the debt that is reported, increase taxes to the kids and continue in the same structure.

 Anybody with a " name " willing to coach Canada will probably be paid 300-400k CAD.

It's a reason why I won't be shocked to hear what would be underwhelming news to many.

For sure! I think you are going to be proven correct when the time comes.

However, my optimism says its possible to get a top coach....
It can be a bit like a promoted team. Do you overspend in wages/transfers so that you stay up and can pay for it....but risk a financial mess if you don't perform. 

In a world of perfect information, we would 100% pay 300k per year more if that coach can get us into one further round of both the Copa and WC. That's 1.2 million. Getting out of the group in Copa would cover this. WC bonus money would be a sweetner as is the extra hype/duals/broadcasting/merch etc that success brings.

However I dont know if pep himself would make any difference in a game against a tier 1 opponent OR that Biello/bobby etc cannot get the job done against tier 3/2B opponents.  

[archer21]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

For sure! I think you are going to be proven correct when the time comes.

However, my optimism says its possible to get a top coach....
It can be a bit like a promoted team. Do you overspend in wages/transfers so that you stay up and can pay for it....but risk a financial mess if you don't perform. 

In a world of perfect information, we would 100% pay 300k per year more if that coach can get us into one further round of both the Copa and WC. That's 1.2 million. Getting out of the group in Copa would cover this. WC bonus money would be a sweetner as is the extra hype/duals/broadcasting/merch etc that success brings.

However I dont know if pep himself would make any difference in a game against a tier 1 opponent OR that Biello/bobby etc cannot get the job done against tier 3/2B opponents.  

Do players get a percentage of Copa prize money? That could be another issue financially as well. We know CSA was basically relying on World Cup prize money as a big part of their solution to their financial issues, only for the players (men and women) to demand most of it for themselves. It would be interesting to know how much CSA actually gets to keep to help fund their other programs.

[MtlMario]

It just seems to me that Blue isn't the type of guy to let things stay as they are if results are not there so therefore I expect a new coach for our Men's team. Just the feeling I'm getting.

[Shway]

16 minutes ago, archer21 said:

Do players get a percentage of Copa prize money? That could be another issue financially as well. We know CSA was basically relying on World Cup prize money as a big part of their solution to their financial issues, only for the players (men and women) to demand most of it for themselves. It would be interesting to know how much CSA actually gets to keep to help fund their other programs.

Of course they do. 
This is why it's a never ending situation.

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. The only hope is that corporate sponsorships come in after a great showing, whatever that looks like. 

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, archer21 said:

Do players get a percentage of Copa prize money? That could be another issue financially as well. We know CSA was basically relying on World Cup prize money as a big part of their solution to their financial issues, only for the players (men and women) to demand most of it for themselves. It would be interesting to know how much CSA actually gets to keep to help fund their other programs.

I don't think this is agreed upon until a CBA is signed. The players are likely getting a match fee plus a win bonus per game. This likely is budgeted for outside of any prize money. 

ASSUMPTION
1. Lets say 30% of prize money goes to player. (The CBA proposed by bontis was 40% and De vos retracted it. I think 30% would be somewhat realistic).
2. A coach at 700k will get CMNT out of both group stages. 
3. A coach of 400k will not get CMNT of of both group stages.

COPA 
We make it out of the group and we get 2million CAD. 600k to the players. CSA gets 1.4million. 

WORLD CUP
Getting out of the WC group would payout 17.5 million instead of 10M. Minus 30% = 12,250,000.00 

FINAL COUNT 
Total increase in revenue minus player bonus payments is 13,650,000.00. 
-Hypothetical increase in cost over 4 years to maintain the salary of herdman = 1.2Million. (assumption is CSA can afford 400k per year and a higher quality coach would ask for 700k - Its not clear that CSA is budgeting 400k and not 700k)
-Increase CSA revenue of 12,450,000.00. (I know its revenue and alot will be eaten up by costs, but then we also need to include a full budget of all operating revenues and costs which is much too large of a scope for this post. The point is that cash will be net positive.) 

VERDICT
Assuming my 3 assumptions are correct (which is by no means a for sure thing), then it would be absolutely financially irresponsible to not hire a more expensive coach.....

The big question for CSA is - Do you gamble that assumption 1 and 2 are true. 
 

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, Shway said:

Of course they do. 
This is why it's a never ending situation.

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. The only hope is that corporate sponsorships come in after a great showing, whatever that looks like. 

A signed CBA would solve this and prevent it from becoming a never ending situation. 

[archer21]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I don't think this is agreed upon until a CBA is signed. The players are likely getting a match fee plus a win bonus per game. This likely is budgeted for outside of any prize money. 

ASSUMPTION
1. Lets say 30% of prize money goes to player. (The CBA proposed by bontis was 40% and De vos retracted it. I think 30% would be somewhat realistic).
2. A coach at 700k will get CMNT out of both group stages. 
3. A coach of 400k will not get CMNT of of both group stages.

COPA 
We make it out of the group and we get 2million CAD. 600k to the players. CSA gets 1.4million. 

WORLD CUP
Getting out of the WC group would payout 17.5 million instead of 10M. Minus 30% = 12,250,000.00 

FINAL COUNT 
Total increase in revenue minus player bonus payments is 13,650,000.00. 
-Hypothetical increase in cost over 4 years to maintain the salary of herdman = 1.2Million. (assumption is CSA can afford 400k per year and a higher quality coach would ask for 700k - Its not clear that CSA is budgeting 400k and not 700k)
-Increase CSA revenue of 12,450,000.00. (I know its revenue and alot will be eaten up by costs, but then we also need to include a full budget of all operating revenues and costs which is much too large of a scope for this post. The point is that cash will be net positive.) 

VERDICT
Assuming my 3 assumptions are correct (which is by no means a for sure thing), then it would be absolutely financially irresponsible to not hire a more expensive coach.....

The big question for CSA is - Do you gamble that assumption 1 and 2 are true. 
 

Does CWNT also get 30% though? I’m not trying to make the Westhead argument that we’re better off not advancing or something. I’m just saying, I think the players’ demands have certainly made it harder for CSA to make ends meet here. If our biggest revenue streams are sponsorship (goes to CSB) and prize money (much goes to players), of course they’re going to struggle financially.

[Ivan]

13 minutes ago, archer21 said:

Does CWNT also get 30% though? I’m not trying to make the Westhead argument that we’re better off not advancing or something. I’m just saying, I think the players’ demands have certainly made it harder for CSA to make ends meet here. If our biggest revenue streams are sponsorship (goes to CSB) and prize money (much goes to players), of course they’re going to struggle financially.

I think you're right.  I also think it's one if the reasons the deal with the men hasn't been agreed to yet, while the women signed off long ago.  The men don't like it.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, Shway said:

Of course they do. 
This is why it's a never ending situation.

Damned if they do. Damned if they don't. The only hope is that corporate sponsorships come in after a great showing, whatever that looks like. 

Corporate sponsorship doesn't help under the current CSB agreement. A philanthropic donation (and not a sponsorship) would work, but I don't know why a corporation would do that.

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, archer21 said:

Does CWNT also get 30% though? I’m not trying to make the Westhead argument that we’re better off not advancing or something. I’m just saying, I think the players’ demands have certainly made it harder for CSA to make ends meet here. If our biggest revenue streams are sponsorship (goes to CSB) and prize money (much goes to players), of course they’re going to struggle financially.

Good post and heres my understanding of things.

In the CBA that has been rescinded by the CSA, the men and women would share 40% of the prize money from the mens world cup and up to 70% of the womens world cup bonus. 

So (assuming the new offer is 30%) the men get 15% and the women get 15%. 

Also it is factually incorrect to say our biggest revenue stream is sponsorship. Sponsorship was virtually non existent pre CSB and now accounts for between 6-8% of total revenue in 2022. In fact, CSA does not pay CSB, CSB pays CSA. Theres just a debate on whats fair value. I've posted the numbers on here so many times that people are probably tired of my posts but even if CSB took on all costs and gave CSA all the revenue they make, sponsorship would still not be the main revenue stream. 

Its also incorrect to say that most of the prize money goes to the players. It doesnt. The future CBA is unlikely to be for more than 30% of the prize money pool of the world cup. 70% of 10-20 million is still a fantastic return for CSA. 

 

Edited April 5 by Bigandy

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ivan said:

I think you're right.  I also think it's one if the reasons the deal with the men hasn't been agreed to yet, while the women signed off long ago.  The men don't like it.

I believe this is false. The men and women were negotiating and wanted different things. The women never signed off on a CBA proposal. They did however sign off on an interim agreement between CWNT and CSA until the CMNT/CWNT and CSA signed a collective agreement. The interim agreement would not have been able to include prize money from the mens world cup.

CSA released the CBA right before the heritage meetings citing an offer to the women that would make them the second highest paid team and that they didnt sign it. 

Lots of this is from memory so perhaps im incorrect. 

[Kadenge]

The CSA needs to beg, steal or borrow and hire a coach that can elevate the team to the next level, get the max out of our top end players and use these games vs 5  high quality opponents to set the team up on the road to WC 26. Can't afford to wait until after COPA. The opportunity costs are too high.

[Sal333]

5 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I don't think this is agreed upon until a CBA is signed. The players are likely getting a match fee plus a win bonus per game. This likely is budgeted for outside of any prize money. 

ASSUMPTION
1. Lets say 30% of prize money goes to player. (The CBA proposed by bontis was 40% and De vos retracted it. I think 30% would be somewhat realistic).
2. A coach at 700k will get CMNT out of both group stages. 
3. A coach of 400k will not get CMNT of of both group stages.

COPA 
We make it out of the group and we get 2million CAD. 600k to the players. CSA gets 1.4million. 

WORLD CUP
Getting out of the WC group would payout 17.5 million instead of 10M. Minus 30% = 12,250,000.00 

FINAL COUNT 
Total increase in revenue minus player bonus payments is 13,650,000.00. 
-Hypothetical increase in cost over 4 years to maintain the salary of herdman = 1.2Million. (assumption is CSA can afford 400k per year and a higher quality coach would ask for 700k - Its not clear that CSA is budgeting 400k and not 700k)
-Increase CSA revenue of 12,450,000.00. (I know its revenue and alot will be eaten up by costs, but then we also need to include a full budget of all operating revenues and costs which is much too large of a scope for this post. The point is that cash will be net positive.) 

VERDICT
Assuming my 3 assumptions are correct (which is by no means a for sure thing), then it would be absolutely financially irresponsible to not hire a more expensive coach.....

The big question for CSA is - Do you gamble that assumption 1 and 2 are true. 
 

Didn't Kevin Blue say that CSA's revenue needs to increase by 10-15 million and stay at that level for the foreseeable future?

In other words if CSA's revenue for the year 2023 was 30 million (let's say) then in 2024 it should be at least 40 million. In 2025 it should also be 40 million and likewise in 2026. The increase for those 3 years should be 30 million in total. Your calculations predict only an increase of 13.65 million. 

Or am I reading your post wrong?

[archer21]

18 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Good post and heres my understanding of things.

In the CBA that has been rescinded by the CSA, the men and women would share 40% of the prize money from the mens world cup and up to 70% of the womens world cup bonus. 

So (assuming the new offer is 30%) the men get 15% and the women get 15%. 

Also it is factually incorrect to say our biggest revenue stream is sponsorship. Sponsorship was virtually non existent pre CSB and now accounts for between 6-8% of total revenue in 2022. In fact, CSA does not pay CSB, CSB pays CSA. Theres just a debate on whats fair value. I've posted the numbers on here so many times that people are probably tired of my posts but even if CSB took on all costs and gave CSA all the revenue they make, sponsorship would still not be the main revenue stream. 

Its also incorrect to say that most of the prize money goes to the players. It doesnt. The future CBA is unlikely to be for more than 30% of the prize money pool of the world cup. 70% of 10-20 million is still a fantastic return for CSA. 

 

I understand sponsorship is not currently (and hasn’t historically) been a big factor. Maybe I worded my post poorly, but I meant that it could or should be a large revenue stream. The fact that sponsors have never really supported the program is a big reason we’re in this situation to begin with.