Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

As someone who follows Canadian soccer and the CSA, wanting a Spnish native speaking coach to me seems incorrect. There is no reason to want a Spanish speaking coach. There is no advantage in having a Spanish coach versus an English coach. In the past we've had to qualify in Latin America. In that case I could understand why the CSA would want a Spanish coach. We don't have to qualify for the World Cup this time, so that removes the reason to want a Spanish coach. The only time we have to go to Latin America this cycle is Nations League. 

I think the Argentine press, fed by the agents of various coaches looking for work, are feeding this narrative. But as you say it has no grounding, it has no justification. In fact, given that the task of the coach involves a lot of dialogue with the CSA and even provincial associations, and on the ground, having someone unable to do that makes less sense. 

Unless, as I've posted before, they are actually thinking that a Spanish speaker with weaker English won't interfere as much and will leave them alone. 

I find that latter possibility less plausible, as these same people , who were Herdman people all the way, were also involved in firing Zambrano the previous coach--a Spanish speaker who seemed to be lacking skills to dialogue with the Canadian soccer community. 

I'm surprised Javier would tout these Argentine reports as reliable when they don't seem reliable at all.

[gigi riva]

I wish we had a Frenchman involved with the CSA . I  would love to see some aspects of the System they are using in France  over here . In the last 40 years  as country they have had some decent results , Sure they have had some bad times too in that span  but overall they been very succesful in all age levels 

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, gigi riva said:

I wish we had a Frenchman involved with the CSA . I  would love to see some aspects of the System they are using in France  over here . In the last 40 years  as country they have had some decent results , Sure they have had some bad times too in that span  but overall they been very succesful in all age levels 

France has the best development system in the entire world. Anything we can learn or poach from them would help us immensely.

[GasPed]

23 hours ago, Big_M said:

if he does well as interim then why not?

First measuring stick will be the friendly against Japan, and frankly, we need to be fair in our expectations, given their A team just crushed Germany's A team in Germany, and their B team just crushed Turkey's B team in Turkey.  If we end up playing their A team in Japan, well, I think a semi-respectable scoreline is the best we can hope for... 

[JAVIERF]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I think the Argentine press, fed by the agents of various coaches looking for work, are feeding this narrative. But as you say it has no grounding, it has no justification. In fact, given that the task of the coach involves a lot of dialogue with the CSA and even provincial associations, and on the ground, having someone unable to do that makes less sense. 

Unless, as I've posted before, they are actually thinking that a Spanish speaker with weaker English won't interfere as much and will leave them alone. 

I find that latter possibility less plausible, as these same people , who were Herdman people all the way, were also involved in firing Zambrano the previous coach--a Spanish speaker who seemed to be lacking skills to dialogue with the Canadian soccer community. 

I'm surprised Javier would tout these Argentine reports as reliable when they don't seem reliable at all.

It has been in LA RED ,  but nothing to do with agents at all,  it has been straight into football.  If you are after Almeyda Alfaro Gareca  Gallardo or Uruguay' Diego Alonso,  it means only one thing,  streetwise professional football.  I agree with some of the posters before,  English speaking coach they seem muck in tournaments.  Barros Schelottos brothers have been released by Paraguay.  Much of much-needed football brain,  maybe the CSA as some touted don't want someone to interfere just to coach the national men team , which seems sensible

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, JAVIERF said:

It has been in LA RED ,  but nothing to do with agents at all,  it has been straight into football.  If you are after Almeyda Alfaro Gareca  Gallardo or Uruguay' Diego Alonso,  it means only one thing,  streetwise professional football.  I agree with some of the posters before,  English speaking coach they seem muck in tournaments.  Barros Schelottos brothers have been released by Paraguay.  Much of much-needed football brain,  maybe the CSA as some touted don't want someone to interfere just to coach the national men team , which seems sensible

Sorry, but this is too much. It is so naive and, to top it off, incredibly deluded.

Of course this story is fed by agents to certain unreliable media outlets. The story only appears in one country, in one context, isn't even picked up by other media because it is so shaky, and concerns  a closed set of names. All of whom seem to really need work. All of them living in a country with 124% inflation.

But who I am I to throw a spanner in this narcissistic love-fest? An Argentine telling us that when it comes to football, the entire world sees Argentines as divine and as saviour figures, with the gall to write "much-needed football brain" without blinking.

 Think of De Vos and Crooks, sitting down together and thinking about a replacement: "we need an Argentine brain, or bust".

Anyways, in the top four European leagues there are two Argentine managers, plenty of players, and plenty of Argentines with Italian and Spanish connections. But only two managers. One more than Australia.

[Big_M]

streetwise professional football...is that what we call it when almeyda was hellbent on san jose playing a ridiculous full field man to man and getting pumped 4-5-6 goals a game with everyone in and around the league laughing at them...full field man to man do you know what that means?? all ten of your outfield players have a player to follow all over the field...if you are a cb who is taking a striker and the striker runs to the touch line or way back into his half you have to follow him even if you are a cb...if one player gets beaten the whole thing falls apart...never seen something like that other than maybe in video games...hmm nope even in video games no one is dumb enough to do it lol

[Shway]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Sorry, but this is too much. It is so naive and, to top it off, incredibly deluded.

Of course this story is fed by agents to certain unreliable media outlets. The story only appears in one country, in one context, isn't even picked up by other media because it is so shaky, and concerns  a closed set of names. All of whom seem to really need work. All of them living in a country with 124% inflation.

But who I am I to throw a spanner in this narcissistic love-fest? An Argentine telling us that when it comes to football, the entire world sees Argentines as divine and as saviour figures, with the gall to write "much-needed football brain" without blinking.

 Think of De Vos and Crooks, sitting down together and thinking about a replacement: "we need an Argentine brain, or bust".

Anyways, in the top four European leagues there are two Argentine managers, plenty of players, and plenty of Argentines with Italian and Spanish connections. But only two managers. One more than Australia.

Exact reason why you talk out of your oxford ass. You had the audacity to try to get at me for insults, but you continue do the very same things you say others do. 

Yes Javier has acted as if Argentinians are gods gift to football, but so have you in regards to Spanish football. 

Your takes have been beyond egregious of lately. But hey I'm the king of insults.

[nolando]

Random thought: I wouldn't mind Alen Marcina joining the temporary leadership as an assistant. These in-between-serious hiring-appointments tend to be given as  gold watch acknowledgements to loyal old-fellows; what if it was given to an up-and-comer Canadian? How does a guy like Marcina climb a ladder like Herman did if there is no ladder extended, even at the bottom rungs?

[RojitoTO]

Where can the CSA look and get the highest quality coach for the best value? I think many would answer Argentina. It's one of the top footballing nations in the world. It produces some of the best players in the world because they have elite player development. They are football mad and so they have an abundance of quality players and coaches. We have the demand for a coach and they have the supply and the demand to seek better financial opportunities. The state of their economy grants the opportunity to recruit greater quality at a better price.

There's a reason why so many South American countries hire Argentine coaches. The proof is in the pudding. It would make some sense considering our participation in the upcoming Copa America as an Argentina coach would have a very good grasp on the opponents and how to compete against them. This can be leveraged and it can increase the likelihood of building progress and momentum moving forward from the tournament. 

This is a country where coaches have such a passion for the game that the prospect of coaching at a Copa America and World Cup would attract candidates without the same degree of financial incentive needed to hire the same quality coaches elsewhere.

[Unnamed Trialist]

33 minutes ago, RojitoTO said:

Where can the CSA look and get the highest quality coach for the best value? I think many would answer Argentina. It's one of the top footballing nations in the world. It produces some of the best players in the world because they have elite player development. They are football mad and so they have an abundance of quality players and coaches. We have the demand for a coach and they have the supply and the demand to seek better financial opportunities. The state of their economy grants the opportunity to recruit greater quality at a better price.

There's a reason why so many South American countries hire Argentine coaches. The proof is in the pudding. It would make some sense considering our participation in the upcoming Copa America as an Argentina coach would have a very good grasp on the opponents and how to compete against them. This can be leveraged and it can increase the likelihood of building progress and momentum moving forward from the tournament. 

This is a country where coaches have such a passion for the game that the prospect of coaching at a Copa America and World Cup would attract candidates without the same degree of financial incentive needed to hire the same quality coaches elsewhere.

Argentina doesn't produce more talent than Brazil. And the coaching isn't better than Spain, for example. You could even argue Germany, who competes and wins male and female is just as solid. Or France.

Argentines are everywhere out in the world because they have to get out of Argentina.

As you can see with Bielsa, or we saw with Valdano, Argentines are probably even better in commentary and analysis than coaching. I used to read Bielsa over 20 years ago. Helenio Herrera was a genius writing and analyzing. In terms of great coaches in the last 40 years, maybe Bilardo, Bianchi.

They'd all freak-out as soon as they realized how the CSA is run. Take Gallardo and put him in Canada and within half a year he'd be sitting in a chair drooling spastically and cursing the BMObonera.

[Obinna]

47 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Argentina doesn't produce more talent than Brazil. And the coaching isn't better than Spain, for example. You could even argue Germany, who competes and wins male and female is just as solid. Or France.

Argentines are everywhere out in the world because they have to get out of Argentina.

As you can see with Bielsa, or we saw with Valdano, Argentines are probably even better in commentary and analysis than coaching. I used to read Bielsa over 20 years ago. Helenio Herrera was a genius writing and analyzing. In terms of great coaches in the last 40 years, maybe Bilardo, Bianchi.

They'd all freak-out as soon as they realized how the CSA is run. Take Gallardo and put him in Canada and within half a year he'd be sitting in a chair drooling spastically and cursing the BMObonera.

@RojitoTO may agree that Argentina are better known for their coaches than Brazil, despite Brazil having more talent (you could argue). Bringing up Brazil here seems irrelevant.

I like the point about the Argentine economy, coupled with the draw of Copa America, lending itself to us getting more bang for our buck. Would obviously be good for the CSA. Knowing the competition we'd potentially face in Copa America would be good also. And of course would be a nice feather in the hat of an Argentine coach to manager at that historic competition. Rojito puts it in a way that makes sense and sounds promising. Having at least 1 coach from Argentina on the wishlist could make sense for the CSA.

Whether the coaching is the standard of Spain or Germany seems irrelevant also. It's probably debatable anyways.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

@RojitoTO may agree that Argentina are better known for their coaches than Brazil, despite Brazil having more talent (you could argue). Bringing up Brazil here seems irrelevant.

I like the point about the Argentine economy, coupled with the draw of Copa America, lending itself to us getting more bang for our buck. Would obviously be good for the CSA. Knowing the competition we'd potentially face in Copa America would be good also. And of course would be a nice feather in the hat of an Argentine coach to manager at that historic competition. Rojito puts it in a way that makes sense and sounds promising. Having at least 1 coach from Argentina on the wishlist could make sense for the CSA.

Whether the coaching is the standard of Spain or Germany seems irrelevant also. It's probably debatable anyways.

 

The problem is that Javier is saying that the CSA is going all in for an Argentina coach, or nothing, to the exclusion of all others, that that is the decision De Vos and Crooks have made, and the reason is that the Argentines are mentally superior. 

You have to take it with a bag of salt, or laugh, or cry, or try something truly Argentine and do all three at once.

[InglewoodJack]

I don't understand the connection of having a south american coach because we're a world cup organizer? What does that change? Still think a guy with European experience is the best way to go, especially if we were apparently considering guys of Pochettino's experience. Tactics and all that are important and all, but I think the most important thing is getting a coach that players get excited to play for. And that means a coach with experience that mirrors our players' career goals, which is playing for the best teams in Europe. Too bad Tottenham poached Ange from Celtic- he would be perfect for what we need IMO.

[Aird25]

I think we should probably just get the best coach for the job, regardless of where they’re from 

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The problem is that Javier is saying that the CSA is going all in for an Argentina coach, or nothing, to the exclusion of all others, that that is the decision De Vos and Crooks have made, and the reason is that the Argentines are mentally superior. 

You have to take it with a bag of salt, or laugh, or cry, or try something truly Argentine and do all three at once.

Well yeah I would disagree with Javier there. That wouldn't mean we aren't considering or targeting Argentine coaches for the reasons @RojitoTO mentions. It makes sense, no?

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I don't understand the connection of having a south american coach because we're a world cup organizer? What does that change? Still think a guy with European experience is the best way to go, especially if we were apparently considering guys of Pochettino's experience. Tactics and all that are important and all, but I think the most important thing is getting a coach that players get excited to play for. And that means a coach with experience that mirrors our players' career goals, which is playing for the best teams in Europe. Too bad Tottenham poached Ange from Celtic- he would be perfect for what we need IMO.

Pochettino? Ange? Why bring up unrealistic names here? 

Good points otherwise. This reminds me of Klinsmann coaching South Korea. I would say he is a step down from Pochettino and Ange, and Canada is a step down from South Korea. We are hosts though, so on balance maybe a Klinsmann level European coach fits your bill. Whether that level of coach is in our budget is another matter and we maybe we could get a similar level coach for cheaper in Argentina (to RojitoTO's point).

[InglewoodJack]

2 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Pochettino? Ange? Why bring up unrealistic names here? 

Good points otherwise. This reminds me of Klinsmann coaching South Korea. I would say he is a step down from Pochettino and Ange, and Canada is a step down from South Korea. We are hosts though, so on balance maybe a Klinsmann level European coach fits your bill. Whether that level of coach is in our budget is another matter and we maybe we could get a similar level coach for cheaper in Argentina (to RojitoTO's point).

One of the posters mentioned we had Pochettino on our short list before he was hired. If that's who we're going after, Ange, if he didn't just get a massive promotion, would be another name I'd imagine would fit what we're looking for.

[Bigandy]

What type of manager do we need? Theres all this RAW RAW tactics talk but "tactics" just sounds like some fans dont like formations and player selections which is not comprehensive of tactics. 

I'm not sure Ange is the right fit for us. We dont have a creative #10, half our games (under normal circumstances) are with horrible playing surfaces and/or extreme temperatures. Thats not ideal for high energy, attacking, pressing etc. 

A mourihno type coach is probably more what suits us. Soak up pressure and develop a team based defensive structure where we dont get caught in 1v1 defending or in transition. Then we hit hard on the counter attack. 

Thats not the style I like but I think its probably the best. 

[Obinna]

29 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

One of the posters mentioned we had Pochettino on our short list before he was hired. If that's who we're going after, Ange, if he didn't just get a massive promotion, would be another name I'd imagine would fit what we're looking for.

That was @JAVIERF and I have my doubts about Pochettino in particular. For sure Ange is that level of manager, but again I don't believe Pochettino was ever a realistic target. Doesn't mean we should throw all of his post out with the bathwater though. The other names he mentioned seem far more realistic.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

One of the posters mentioned we had Pochettino on our short list before he was hired. If that's who we're going after, Ange, if he didn't just get a massive promotion, would be another name I'd imagine would fit what we're looking for.

There's no way we can afford either, they're mid career coaches making millions a year. We'd break the bank paying 700k. So if anyone put them on a short list it because they were a bit "short" too.

The South American connection only makes sense on that level, you could get an experienced guy for that or less. He'd struggle to communicate adequately, could not dialogue to convince a dual and wouldn't help with anything else, but he'd line the team up right. Mostly.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[PastPros]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

One of the posters mentioned we had Pochettino on our short list before he was hired. If that's who we're going after, Ange, if he didn't just get a massive promotion, would be another name I'd imagine would fit what we're looking for.

One of the least reliable posters on this board, FWIW.

[Obinna]

13 hours ago, Big_M said:

streetwise professional football...is that what we call it when almeyda was hellbent on san jose playing a ridiculous full field man to man and getting pumped 4-5-6 goals a game with everyone in and around the league laughing at them...full field man to man do you know what that means?? all ten of your outfield players have a player to follow all over the field...if you are a cb who is taking a striker and the striker runs to the touch line or way back into his half you have to follow him even if you are a cb...if one player gets beaten the whole thing falls apart...never seen something like that other than maybe in video games...hmm nope even in video games no one is dumb enough to do it lol

Not to take anything away from your point about all 10 players man-marking, but didn't he find success coaching Chivas that way? They won the CCL beating TFC in 2018, no?

[narduch]

Kloke pushing Smyrniotis as the Herdman replacement.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by narduch

[Shway]

I was going through FIFA's top 50 rankings, and looking at the head coaches and where they are from and I found some interesting findings. 86% of the head coaches were native or played for the nation they are coaching.

The only coaches in Europe (in the top 50) to not have a native coach is Belgium, Hungary, Slovakia, and Turkey. Only Belgium was in the WC - and they bombed. 

50% of those non native coaches are coached by an Argentinian. (Chile, Ecuador, Costa Rica, Colombia, Uruguay). 

It seems as if there is an unwritten rule for a lot of federations to employ "one of their own".

Somebody mentioned Alen Marcina, and it had me thinking... of all the Canadian "active" managers from the list below, who would be the most ideal.

Alen Marcina
Wilfred Nancy
Marc Dos Santos
Mauro Biello
Frank Yallop
Bobby Smyrniotis 
Marc Watson
Jason Bent
Jim Brennan

....The list is very thin

Edited September 23, 2023 by Shway