Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

He's the top man on this board in gratuitous insults, like a kid who throws rocks then stuffs his hands in his pockets, playing innocent.

You argued a point, and the point is damn good: if in Canada we were able to take a women's coach and transition him to the men, where he had zero experience, and that guy only had bronze medals, why can't a woman be moved to the men as well based on her winning gold. 

It is simply hypothetical, Priestman is not necessarily a very interesting coach, but she does have a strong mindset and has been able to make the team tough and competitive. Beating major rivals like the US and Sweden. 

There is no reason to rightly assume guys fiddling around in CPL have a higher skill set. Wheeldon has failed in the crunch almost all his career at Cavalry, and Bobby seems a bit conformist and the strongest roster underperforms--except in the crunch. But often because the rival was not up to par. Neither are tactical geniuses, I have learned basically zero from them when it comes to football. In fact, I learnt more from the women's Olympics run, like how to fight a war of attrition, use a low scoreline vs superior rivals, and prep for penalties.

Clearly, the point is valid, and you have recognised its rhetorical ground. Something totally lost on some here.  But we'd all prefer someone with a stronger profile with mens national teams or as a club manager.

 

Why is this rhetorical and hypothetical?

[SpursFlu]

I would love a high profile coach but I don't think it's worth the trouble at this point. If they spend a bunch of money on a coach we all know what happens next. Just a bunch of whining and complaining about how the women coach or whatever dont get that much money to spend. Since I don't think results will change that much between Bobby Smyrniotis and Hansi Flick or whoever just go the simple route just because at this point I cannot stand the hearing all the nonsense and negativity. So just save the money and put it towards player development initiatives

Edited September 15, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

Why is this rhetorical and hypothetical?

In @phil03's way of arguing it, that is how I understood it. 

He is not really proposing Bev Priestman, he's quite fairly exposing the weakness of a lot of arguments on the board.

I would have argued it in the same way. 

At some point, in any case, we are going to have a female coach on a men's team and she is going to do well. Or well enough. And as the sample grows, so will the reliability of the test. Only a few years we heard women could not ref men, that is out the window in a jiffy. 

[El Diego]

Fernando Santos was an absolute disaster for Poland, and despite being fired after six matches he wasn't fired soon enough. It's not just the results, it's the performances as well. Poland had a straight forward group and now there is a very good chance they don't qualify for Euro. It's a big no from me.

[SpursFlu]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In @phil03's way of arguing it, that is how I understood it. 

He is not really proposing Bev Priestman, he's quite fairly exposing the weakness of a lot of arguments on the board.

I would have argued it in the same way. 

At some point, in any case, we are going to have a female coach on a men's team and she is going to do well. Or well enough. And as the sample grows, so will the reliability of the test. Only a few years we heard women could not ref men, that is out the window in a jiffy. 

Anyone can do anything if ypu think about it. Like Chris Rock said. I can ride my bike with my feet if I wanted to.

The unspoken reality is sports is entertainment really. We don't need to waste our time on sports. Men's sport is consumed by probably 95% men. And at a certain point you run the risk of the SheRa theory coming in to play

[Bigandy]

18 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I know you guys are clowning @phil03 and to be honest the thought of Bev for manager seems far-fetched, to put it nicely, but if I learned anything from Herdman's tenure it's not to discount coaching results on the women's side of the game.

We had this debate before with Herdman, that level of play being lower (on the women's side) doesn't necessarily mean that doing well at the Olympics and the World Cup should be dismissed. However, we also saw Herdman look wildly out of his depth at the World Cup, despite his World Cup experience on the women's side of the game, so what would you make of that @jonovision? Maybe that's just a "John thing" and we shouldn't extrapolate it Bev or Neville or any other coach that's done the job for men and women? Unfortunately we don't have many examples of managers who have crossed over, and Herdman is a pretty unique individual, so maybe we shouldn't draw conclusions from the fact he looked like a novice at the World Cup - a compeition he was very familiar with on the women's side of the game?

Despite the World Cup Herdman overall was definitely a success, to the point where I find myself holding back from hitting the laugh recation at some of these comments.

Now obviously the level of play is higher in the CPL than the women's world cup or olympics (I hope we can all agree on that), which is the pinnical of Bev's coaching experience, and Herdman's before the men's job.

At the same time, there's probably a question to be asked about whether the pressure at these international women's events would be greater than a CPL final. I mean, it's international competition and it's the World Cup and the Olympics, there are a lot of eyeballs, even more during Bev's reign then Herdman's, but not to the same degree as the Men's World Cup. Again I hope for the sake of a reasonable discussion we could all agree (although the men's olympics may be debatable).

I don't want to come off as disrespectful to the women's game here - but do you guys think there's actually a valid debate here? I am not suggesting there are more eyeballs on the CPL than the women's world cup, or olympics, and I hope nobody else would claim that, because it would be disengenuous, but I do wonder if there's something to be said about the stakes and pressure when comparing the two coaching resumes - especially when you factor in the CONCACAF CUP runs that Forge and Bobby had. That's international competition, and it's at a higher level playing-wise (for whatever that's worth) than the WWC. 

 

I think theres some key reasons why herdman was successful.
1. Motivator 
2. Unifying the dressing room and getting stars to commit to WCQ
3. Bringing in key players/duals (even if they were likely anyways) - staq, david, kone, ugbo, buchanan, AJ

Would priestman be able to do that if she were hired? 
1. She's not as motivational as JH
2. Maybe but with a fractured dressing room/federation, no money, coming off of a terrible WC performance, and potentially facing some gender based opinions (whether ethically right or wrong), she will have a big task ahead of her to gain the respect needed to unify things.
3. She's essentially a nobody in relation to connections with duals. JH was as well but he had #1 and #2 going for him and he put in the time to recruit these guys.  Im sure she would get some guys as well though.

I think too much emphasis is placed on JH or BP tactical acumen. I dont think theres very many realistic coaches who would have improved our WC performance. A national coach has to have a different skill set to a club coach and JH ticks alot of those boxes better than BP does IMO.

[InglewoodJack]

I'm not a fan of Priestman as a candidate for the sole reason that Herdman's biggest blind spot is his lack of club management experience. Not that I'm the most seasoned athlete myself, but there is something to be said about a manager who has experience being in that dressing room day in and day out, experience being deep in the trenches with their guys over a long period of time, going through the ups and downs and getting to know what makes each player tick.

Herdman is an academic and Priestman is a Herdman disciple- I think that profile of manager is good for bringing structure to a program in disarray and implementing procedures that lay the groundwork for growth over a generation, but it's not the type of coach who can lead you to the promise land. To get biblical for a second, Herdman and this type of coach is noah leading his team across the red sea, but he's not the shepherd who will lead his flock into the promise land.

If we want to get a female manager involved, I'd like to see us go after Hannah Dingley from Forest Green as an assistant. She was the caretaker manager during preseason, she's run their academy for like a decade, so she understands how to develop a pipeline, and she's probably one of the likliest women to eventually get a permanent manager position in the men's game. Getting her on the coaching staff and eventually promoting her after 2026 would be really cool. Per rumours, we have a lot more experienced candidates interested in the job, but I'm not opposed to having a woman lead our team or be put in a position to eventually lead us, I just don't think Priestman is the right candidate.

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I'm not a fan of Priestman as a candidate for the sole reason that Herdman's biggest blind spot is his lack of club management experience. Not that I'm the most seasoned athlete myself, but there is something to be said about a manager who has experience being in that dressing room day in and day out, experience being deep in the trenches with their guys over a long period of time, going through the ups and downs and getting to know what makes each player tick.

Herdman is an academic and Priestman is a Herdman disciple- I think that profile of manager is good for bringing structure to a program in disarray and implementing procedures that lay the groundwork for growth over a generation, but it's not the type of coach who can lead you to the promise land. To get biblical for a second, Herdman and this type of coach is noah leading his team across the red sea, but he's not the shepherd who will lead his flock into the promise land.

If we want to get a female manager involved, I'd like to see us go after Hannah Dingley from Forest Green as an assistant. She was the caretaker manager during preseason, she's run their academy for like a decade, so she understands how to develop a pipeline, and she's probably one of the likliest women to eventually get a permanent manager position in the men's game. Getting her on the coaching staff and eventually promoting her after 2026 would be really cool. Per rumours, we have a lot more experienced candidates interested in the job, but I'm not opposed to having a woman lead our team or be put in a position to eventually lead us, I just don't think Priestman is the right candidate.

Noah led animals on a boat. Moses led his team across the sea.  

But I think thats an even better analogy. Noah/JH led a bunch of animals who really didnt have much choice but to follow up if they wanted to survive the flood. The common enemy of the flood allowed JH to be a great leader and unite everyone. But now that the floods over and its time to set up society in the promise land, theres broader needs of the community, new skill sets required, differing opinions on how to get there and theres cultured people (not just animals who dont know anythign else). JH probably wasnt the man to build that new society in the promise land. 

[Obinna]

13 hours ago, phil03 said:

I don't think she'd be the perfect candidate but she would make significantly more sense then someone whose biggest accomplishment as head coach of a professional team was to get to the semi-finals of the CONCACAF League.

In fact, I have just about the same opinion you have on Priestman's potential candidacy in regard to how much sense hiring a coach who does not have any experience at a level a player would need for said player to be even seriously considered for the CMNT would make and how it would be seen in the broader Soccer world. And yet, I have found a way to express my disagreement with people who want Smyrniotis as head coach without lobbying personal insults at them.

I would be grateful if you could find a way to do the same in expressing your own view of point.

@Unnamed Trialist this to me is him saying that Bev would make more sense then Smyrniotis but neither is a candidate we should consider, since neither would be taken seriously as neither would be taken seriously by the players.

If that's a correct interpretation, my quesion would be: why would the players would not take Bev seriously when Herdman was taken seriously by the players despite coming from the same coaching ranks as Bev?

Secondly, why would the players not take Smyrniotis seriously when they took Herdman seriously? Smyrniotis from my understanding is well respected and has good relationships with many of the Ontario based players in the pool. If it's due to the level of play Bobby comes from I would point out that Herdman wasn taken seriously despite coming from an inferior level of play.

I know that Phil's position is that we should go after a big name that can change the negative perception and steer things in the right direction - and I am quite sympathetic to that argument - so I think it's consistent for him to say neither Bobby nor Bev are interesting as a candidate (at least for him).

But to say Bev would make significantly more sense than Smyniotis, who the CSA thought enough about to give an interview, seems like a clownish overexaggeration of his point - which is that Bev has a better resume than Bobby. 

Maybe Bev has no interest in the job, but the fact the CSA interviewed Smyniotis (as did Montreal and Toronto?) suggests his resume, and cutting his teeth in the CPL, is not viewed as a problem - quite the opposite.

And that's a good thing. The CPL is not just for player development, but coaching development as well. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Obinna

[toontownman]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

I would love a high profile coach but I don't think it's worth the trouble at this point. If they spend a bunch of money on a coach we all know what happens next. Just a bunch of whining and complaining about how the women coach or whatever dont get that much money to spend. Since I don't think results will change that much between Bobby Smyrniotis and Hansi Flick or whoever just go the simple route just because at this point I cannot stand the hearing all the nonsense and negativity. So just save the money and put it towards player development initiatives

You're not wrong but it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Hire Bobby and there will be as much if not more whining and complaining about it being a CSB jobs for the boys hire, onesoccer will praise it and get more abuse because they are "biased". Then you will have the crowd that will be on his back from the start because he isn't experienced or a big enough game.

Whiners gonna whine either way. 

[InglewoodJack]

10 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Noah led animals on a boat. Moses led his team across the sea.  

But I think thats an even better analogy. Noah/JH led a bunch of animals who really didnt have much choice but to follow up if they wanted to survive the flood. The common enemy of the flood allowed JH to be a great leader and unite everyone. But now that the floods over and its time to set up society in the promise land, theres broader needs of the community, new skill sets required, differing opinions on how to get there and theres cultured people (not just animals who dont know anythign else). JH probably wasnt the man to build that new society in the promise land. 

Yes, Moses, that's the one. Point was that I think Herdman was crucial in getting the program on the right track and bringing us to where we are today, but he's not the guy who was ever going to lead this program to its greatest heights.

[Bigandy]

16 minutes ago, Obinna said:

 

If that's a correct interpretation, my quesion would be: why would the players would not take Bev seriously when Herdman was taken seriously by the players despite coming from the same coaching ranks as Bev?

Secondly, why would the players not take Smyrniotis seriously when they took Herdman seriously? Smyrniotis from my understanding is well respected and has good relationships with many of the Ontario based players in the pool. If it's due to the level of play Bobby comes from I would point out that Herdman wasn taken seriously despite coming from an inferior level of play.

JH essentially grew the womens game substantially. Bev won a gold but you could argue JH did the leg work. Bevs stock is currently at an all time low after the WWC. So the first point is that JH achieved more. Secondly I think JH had to win the players over. Idk if Bev has that motivational quality too. 3rd and this is purely speculation and maybe not ethically sound, but I am sure there would be a gender based component. I hate to say it, but I think if Bev was a male, she could sway more CMNT players quicker than as a female.  I'd love to live in a world that theres gender equality but I dont think thats reality. 

As for Bobby, I think he just isnt anywhere near the level we need to reach the next stage of CMNT. The CMNT is pretty far past the average CPL player quality unless its a youngster who moves to a better league. Even then, very few CPL'ers are good enough for CMNT. Waterman, mcnaughton, rea, young, abzi, farsi, loturi are all on the outside looking in. I'd say bobby needs to make 1 or even 2 moves up before he should be considered as a candidate. Would we ever consider a CV like bobby if he coached an equivalent level outside of canada.... never. 

[SpursFlu]

18 minutes ago, toontownman said:

You're not wrong but it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Hire Bobby and there will be as much if not more whining and complaining about it being a CSB jobs for the boys hire, onesoccer will praise it and get more abuse because they are "biased". Then you will have the crowd that will be on his back from the start because he isn't experienced or a big enough game.

Whiners gonna whine either way. 

Being 1 of the only 2000 people in this country who even knows what the CSB is, I can honestly say that never crossed my mind.

But I don't think it's wrong in saying that Bobby Smyrniotis should be given a chance to promote the concept of a Canadian coach and one who cut his teeth in the CPL. When Smyrniotis inevitably does well it would be a nice advertisement for the league and Canadian coaches. That is true and a very good thing for Canadian soccer

[BearcatSA]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I hate to say it, but I think if Bev was a male, she could sway more CMNT players quicker than as a female.  I'd love to live in a world that theres gender equality but I dont think thats reality. 

From what I have read from "insider" tweets about the situation, regardless of gender, wouldn't following up Herdman with a Herdman acolyte simply be continuing with too similar a message?

[SpursFlu]

4 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

From what I have read from "insider" tweets about the situation, regardless of gender, wouldn't following up Herdman with a Herdman acolyte simply be continuing with too similar a message?

I think its also tough because Bev has a strong English accent. When people hear that accent talking about football they just immediately think they have an unsophisticated view of the sport and are incapable of being a thoughtful, effective soccer manager. It's just true

Edited September 15, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Unnamed Trialist]

36 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@Unnamed Trialist this to me is him saying that Bev would make more sense then Smyrniotis but neither is a candidate we should consider, since neither would be taken seriously as neither would be taken seriously by the players.

If that's a correct interpretation, my quesion would be: why would the players would not take Bev seriously when Herdman was taken seriously by the players despite coming from the same coaching ranks as Bev?

Secondly, why would the players not take Smyrniotis seriously when they took Herdman seriously? Smyrniotis from my understanding is well respected and has good relationships with many of the Ontario based players in the pool. If it's due to the level of play Bobby comes from I would point out that Herdman wasn taken seriously despite coming from an inferior level of play.

I know that Phil's position is that we should go after a big name that can change the negative perception and steer things in the right direction - and I am quite sympathetic to that argument - so I think it's consistent for him to say neither Bobby nor Bev are interesting as a candidate (at least for him).

But to say Bev would make significantly more sense than Smyniotis, who the CSA thought enough about to give an interview, seems like a clownish overexaggeration of his point - which is that Bev has a better resume than Bobby. 

Maybe Bev has no interest in the job, but the fact the CSA interviewed Smyniotis (as did Montreal and Toronto?) suggests his resume, and cutting his teeth in the CPL, is not viewed as a problem - quite the opposite.

And that's a good thing. The CPL is not just for player development, but coaching development as well. 

Well the main point I'd agree on is that Bobby has a good relation with many players, I already posted about Larin and him. They are close, and those guys who respect Bobby would bring the rest of the group along. 

Smyrniotis is not old-fashioned, he does not play a style that is archaic. He even tends to keep players in position. He's consistent, though he could do better.

As for the debate between high profile or lower like Smyrniotis, I am more in the middle range. I like Christensen, someone mentioned Osorio, then there is Nancy, I know of forty-somethings in Spain who are solid-- I like these guys who are younger, have experience, don't reek of old school, are solid, aspire to something still, won't freak out if the CSA is its usual mess. And won't cost a lot, because I don't think it is necessary to spend that much, and less so if we are not going to be busy every Fifa window. 

 

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

JH essentially grew the womens game substantially. Bev won a gold but you could argue JH did the leg work. Bevs stock is currently at an all time low after the WWC. So the first point is that JH achieved more. Secondly I think JH had to win the players over. Idk if Bev has that motivational quality too. 3rd and this is purely speculation and maybe not ethically sound, but I am sure there would be a gender based component. I hate to say it, but I think if Bev was a male, she could sway more CMNT players quicker than as a female.  I'd love to live in a world that theres gender equality but I dont think thats reality. 

As for Bobby, I think he just isnt anywhere near the level we need to reach the next stage of CMNT. The CMNT is pretty far past the average CPL player quality unless its a youngster who moves to a better league. Even then, very few CPL'ers are good enough for CMNT. Waterman, mcnaughton, rea, young, abzi, farsi, loturi are all on the outside looking in. I'd say bobby needs to make 1 or even 2 moves up before he should be considered as a candidate. Would we ever consider a CV like bobby if he coached an equivalent level outside of canada.... never. 

Good post.

I find myself stuck between "Yes Bobby doesn't jump out as the man to take the CMNT to new heights" and "Bobby is our best hope for a CPL-coach to jump a level".

Now, maybe the CMNT job shouldn't be the place to test it out. Maybe a club in MLS or elsewhere would be more appropriate. But then I keep coming back to the so-called fact that he's already worked with multiple CanMNT players and he's supposedly well respected. Then I think about the titles he's won in a league that does have a decent level of parity. Then I think about how a good coach (or player) sometimes just needs the right opportunity - but then I go right back to "the CMNT job is too important to grant such an opportunity to a CPL coach". Then rinse and repeat, basically.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

19 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

JH essentially grew the womens game substantially. Bev won a gold but you could argue JH did the leg work. Bevs stock is currently at an all time low after the WWC. So the first point is that JH achieved more. Secondly I think JH had to win the players over. Idk if Bev has that motivational quality too. 3rd and this is purely speculation and maybe not ethically sound, but I am sure there would be a gender based component. I hate to say it, but I think if Bev was a male, she could sway more CMNT players quicker than as a female.  I'd love to live in a world that theres gender equality but I dont think thats reality. 

As for Bobby, I think he just isnt anywhere near the level we need to reach the next stage of CMNT. The CMNT is pretty far past the average CPL player quality unless its a youngster who moves to a better league. Even then, very few CPL'ers are good enough for CMNT. Waterman, mcnaughton, rea, young, abzi, farsi, loturi are all on the outside looking in. I'd say bobby needs to make 1 or even 2 moves up before he should be considered as a candidate. Would we ever consider a CV like bobby if he coached an equivalent level outside of canada.... never. 

Would you think differently of Bobby if she were a lady?

Be honest now.

[SpursFlu]

How many really good professional soccer players did Bobby Smyrniotis mold in Canada at a time when nobody was creating professional soccer players in Canada? Not to mention what he's done with Forge

John Herdman got ok results with Canadian Women's team when 95% of the world could give a shit about Women's soccer.

Herdman's biggest accomplishment was that he was able to make the media become infatuated with him. He's on ok soccer coach but his biggest strength his ability to market himself 

Edited September 15, 2023 by SpursFlu

[SpursFlu]

16 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Would you think differently of Bobby if she were a lady?

Be honest now.

Would you? Because if the answer is no you're a complete liar

In fact they question is completely insane. If Bobby Smyrniotis was a woman, he wouldn't be Bobby Smyrniotis 

[Obinna]

We quickly moved from the hypothetical of Bev coaching the Men's national team to the hypothetical of Bobby being a woman. 

@Shway was right - this thread has gone to shits 

[Shway]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

He's the top man on this board in gratuitous insults, like a kid who throws rocks then stuffs his hands in his pockets, playing innocent.

And here comes the hypocrite who typically has covert discriminatory remarks.....
but hey I'm still in my parent's basement living in the ghetto so forgive my ignorance.

Like I said this thread has gone to shits.

So let's go out and get the tactician specialist that is Bev Preistman.

[SpursFlu]

9 minutes ago, Obinna said:

We quickly moved from the hypothetical of Bev coaching the Men's national team to the hypothetical of Bobby being a woman. 

@Shway was right - this thread has gone to shits 

The moment someone brought up Bev Priestmam. And ironically only because she's a women. You knew it was slowly moving towards insanity. Can we just drop the Bev Priestman stuff because it ain't happening and not on any sane person's radar. 

Can we go back to talking about more likely things that likely never are going to happen anyways

Edited September 15, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Shway]

1 minute ago, SpursFlu said:

The moment someone brought up Bev Priestmam. And ironically annoying because she's a women. You knew it was slowly moving towards insanity. Can we just drop the Bev Priestman stuff because it ain't happening and not on any sane person's radar. 

Can we go back to talking about more likely things that likely never going to happen anyways

Sane person....that's an insult.
Let's keep talking about it....the man from Barcelona where football was invented said it makes sense, so it makes sense. 

[Bigandy]

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Would you think differently of Bobby if she were a lady?

Be honest now.

Not even a little. I dont want bobby for the CMNT no matter what gender.