Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, phil03 said:

All the feel-good narratives in the world about the homegrown coach aren't going to be worth didly squat if we don't do well in 2026 and any coach will have a solid feel good narrative if we do well in 2026. That's the only metric that ought to matter here IMO.

I am guessing that it will be a contract that goes to the conclusion of the WC?  So, with the CSA not being on the hook for a heavy longer term financial commitment here, the key metric is the lead up to the tourney, not the tourney itself.  I could see someone getting the job then getting axed near the end of 2025 if the performance in Copa/NL/Gold Cup doesn't cut it.

I was not kidding about Herdman making a return to the technical area when I made my earlier post.  However, the job becomes much more attractive to other high profile guys within that context of a rent-a-gun manager.

Edited September 12, 2023 by BearcatSA

[SpursFlu]

Looking at Bobby Smyrniotis resume one thing really jumps out. This guy sure has accomplished a lot in coaching for just being 44. Pretty amazing 

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, phil03 said:

Competent people who know Canadian Soccer very well are definitely not in short supply.

oh?

2 hours ago, phil03 said:

Moreover, a coach with international experience would be more attractive for dual nationals.

 

Why?

2 hours ago, phil03 said:

All the feel-good narratives in the world about the homegrown coach aren't going to be worth didly squat if we don't do well in 2026

Truthfully, I think going with Bobby would be the riskiest of all choices. I think it's likely the best choice, but there seems to be such a hate for all things CSB/CPL related that I think there would be more pressure on him than any external hire. 

[RojitoTO]

12 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I’m genuinely curious, what do we gain by hiring someone with international experience, but no knowledge of Canadian soccer?

Is this a serious question?

[Aird25]

16 minutes ago, RojitoTO said:

Is this a serious question?

Very much so. I could probably make a more convincing argument than impartiality, and ability to handle big personalities, and I happen to like the idea of Bobby Smyrniotis. I think he's the most logical choice if a big named manager can't be secured, and even with a big named manager I think the benefits would largely be commercially related, not necessarily product on the pitch. I would love a counter point though.

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

Someone with a skills set that is easier to supplement. Competent people who know Canadian Soccer very well are definitely not in short supply. A coach more versed on international Soccer could hire one or two as assistants, or even keep those around under Herdman. Finding assistants who can compensate for Smyrniotis' lack of experience in both international Soccer as well as in a level sufficient to be considered for the CMNT would be considerably harder.

Moreover, a coach with international experience would be more attractive for dual nationals.

Like, I don't want to be misunderstood here: I have a lot of respect for Smyrniotis and definitely think he has the potential to do the job at some point. When he was rumored as a candidate for my favourite club (Impact) my take, as recorded in the relevant thread', was ''if he speak French he should be genuinely considered'' and I'd be down with him as an assistant that would be set to take the job post-2026 but not now, not with his current level of experience and in the current labor situation. 

All the feel-good narratives in the world about the homegrown coach aren't going to be worth didly squat if we don't do well in 2026 and any coach will have a solid feel good narrative if we do well in 2026. That's the only metric that ought to matter here IMO.

Few thoughts:

1. You're right that feel-good narratives only go so far and can quickly turn sour if results aren't there. A Canadian coach from CPL like Bobby will feel good in the lead up, but if we do poorly it'll just reinforce the widely held belief that Canadians don't know the game and we need help from the outside. Converserly, if we do well it will be a testament to the coaching talent we have and will be landmark moment. It can go either way but it's a gamble I wouldn't mind us taking. 

2. I feel that Canada thrives as the underdog. Maybe with Bobby (or any other "no-name" manager) outside expectations may drop? I feel like we took people by surprise because we came out of nowhere, but we were also led my a manager that never really managed the men's game, club or country. I feel that added to our unknown factor and maybe we took people by surprise. No chance we reach that level of "under the radar" again, but maybe with such a manager we capture some of that back in a way? I am not suggesting we hire based on that factor alone, but it could be a nice effect of an "unknown" manager.

By contrast if we hire a well known manager, it boosts our stock, yes, but also our expectation. And less of a chance to take teams by surprise? Marsch for example is well known enough now that everyone knows his M.O. His teams are going to press. Berhalter's M.O. (until he proves otherwise) is that his teams will keep the ball and then cross the ball in the box. Tata, to use an example from last cycle, plays only 4-3-3 (at least with Mexico). These guys are all known quantities. What about Bobby? Sure Canada will be scouted like everyone else, but maybe there'll be an aura of the unknown around him to an extent, less certainty around him, perhaps? Maybe I am overthinking it?

[mrstepp817]

On 8/28/2023 at 5:37 PM, JamboAl said:

The coach I’d love for us to get is Thomas Christiansen, the Panama coach.  I think he’s an excellent tactician and would probably come in at a similar salary to Herdman.

he really impressed me in the Gold Cup

[VinceA]

Honestly? I wouldn't hate Hugo Perez if his name got thrown into the mix. He got a lot out of a pretty meh El Salvador team until he couldn't anymore (His best players are USL guys and Roldan and Zavaleta).

He knows the region and players love him. I think he could do good things with a better pool even if the resources aren't really there (our current issue)

He also is well versed in courting dual-nationals.

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Honestly? I wouldn't hate Hugo Perez if his name got thrown into the mix. He got a lot out of a pretty meh El Salvador team until he couldn't anymore (His best players are USL guys and Roldan and Zavaleta).

He knows the region and players love him. I think he could do good things with a better pool even if the resources aren't really there (our current issue)

He also is well versed in courting dual-nationals.

Does he have any experience beyond courting Salvadorian-Americans? Perez himself is a Salvadorian-American keep in mind. 

[SpursFlu]

What dual nationals are we trying to court at the moment? Who ever we hire it should be a 4 yr contract max. Really after 2026 the person should be gone

If he doesn't do well he gets fired.

If he does well, he should move on to a better job

Edited September 12, 2023 by SpursFlu

[phil03]

3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I. Why?

II. Truthfully, I think going with Bobby would be the riskiest of all choices. I think it's likely the best choice, but there seems to be such a hate for all things CSB/CPL related that I think there would be more pressure on him than any external hire. 

I. Because a) a coach with international experience presumably has active experience recruiting dual nats and b) after a turbulent time leading to the departure of the previous coach a know quantity who has experience in International is gonna help assuage whatever concerns dual nats might have about the state of the Program.

II. It isn't about the CPL specifically, its about the level of play and lack of international experience. Supposed you had a coach who coached say Olympia or Montagua in Central America while also having deep ties and knowledge of Canadian Soccer (the how is not important, its just for the sake of the discussion), would you believe that they would be a good option immediately rather then someone to keep in mind for the future? I, and believe many others, wouldn't and Smyrniotis being at Forge instead isn't assuasing our worries. 

The one thing about him as head coach that I'll admit makes me hesitate and his about the CPL specifically is the risk that some players sees him as more or less a CSB plant and that it makes the labor issues worse. Not his fault/not fair? Absolutely, but it's still a risk and it ought to be considered against him just like the fondness of his old Sigma players is a point for him.

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Few thoughts:

1. You're right that feel-good narratives only go so far and can quickly turn sour if results aren't there. A Canadian coach from CPL like Bobby will feel good in the lead up, but if we do poorly it'll just reinforce the widely held belief that Canadians don't know the game and we need help from the outside. Converserly, if we do well it will be a testament to the coaching talent we have and will be landmark moment. It can go either way but it's a gamble I wouldn't mind us taking. 

2. I feel that Canada thrives as the underdog. Maybe with Bobby (or any other "no-name" manager) outside expectations may drop? I feel like we took people by surprise because we came out of nowhere, but we were also led my a manager that never really managed the men's game, club or country. I feel that added to our unknown factor and maybe we took people by surprise. No chance we reach that level of "under the radar" again, but maybe with such a manager we capture some of that back in a way? I am not suggesting we hire based on that factor alone, but it could be a nice effect of an "unknown" manager.

By contrast if we hire a well known manager, it boosts our stock, yes, but also our expectation. And less of a chance to take teams by surprise? Marsch for example is well known enough now that everyone knows his M.O. His teams are going to press. Berhalter's M.O. (until he proves otherwise) is that his teams will keep the ball and then cross the ball in the box. Tata, to use an example from last cycle, plays only 4-3-3 (at least with Mexico). These guys are all known quantities. What about Bobby? Sure Canada will be scouted like everyone else, but maybe there'll be an aura of the unknown around him to an extent, less certainty around him, perhaps? Maybe I am overthinking it?

I. TBH for me that ought to not even be considered a factor. If we do well in 2026 its going to be good for our domestic scene, alongside everything else, and if we do badly in 2026 then its going to be bad for our domestic scene, alongside everything else, so we ought to simply go for whatever coach gives us the best ods of the former and that we can afford, regardless of their nationality and where they coach.

For me, and I'll argue probably most Canadian Soccer fans when the casuals are considered, the national teams aren't a mean to an end. They are an end in and off themselves.

II. I would respectfully disagree with your analysis on this as for me the fact that predictions for the team would become more pessimistic with Bobby is instead a red flag next to its candidacy among others.

IMO the surprise factor we benefited from came from the fact we had been bad for so long it was easy for others to just sleep on us, and as we have a relatively solid player pool now we made them pay for it when things finally clicked for said player pool. We won't go back to that same under-the-radar situation anytime soon because people have seen what we could do.

Far from somebody who could try to replicate it I'd argue that we need precisely the opposite: a name that would help stop all the doom and gloom and/or gloating talk and help give a sense of stability to the Program.

[InglewoodJack]

2 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

What dual nationals are we trying to court at the moment? Who ever we hire it should be a 4 yr contract max. Really after 2026 the person should be gone

If he doesn't do well he gets fired.

If he does well, he should move on to a better job

Enes Sali? Bruno Davison? Jesse Costa? I can’t think of any really big names other than Tomori if that rule change actually happened, but there’s a bigger chance of me playing for Canada than him. 
 

People keep saying Thomas Christiansen, is there any reason to believe he’s on the market, or is it just that we’re a bigger country so maybe he wants to move up? I doubt he’s available, but I’d love it if he somehow brought him over. 

[Obinna]

19 minutes ago, phil03 said:

I. TBH for me that ought to not even be considered a factor. If we do well in 2026 its going to be good for our domestic scene, alongside everything else, and if we do badly in 2026 then its going to be bad for our domestic scene, alongside everything else, so we ought to simply go for whatever coach gives us the best ods of the former and that we can afford, regardless of their nationality and where they coach.

For me, and I'll argue probably most Canadian Soccer fans when the casuals are considered, the national teams aren't a mean to an end. They are an end in and off themselves.

II. I would respectfully disagree with your analysis on this as for me the fact that predictions for the team would become more pessimistic with Bobby is instead a red flag next to its candidacy among others.

IMO the surprise factor we benefited from came from the fact we had been bad for so long it was easy for others to just sleep on us, and as we have a relatively solid player pool now we made them pay for it when things finally clicked for said player pool. We won't go back to that same under-the-radar situation anytime soon because people have seen what we could do.

Far from somebody who could try to replicate it I'd argue that we need precisely the opposite: a name that would help stop all the doom and gloom and/or gloating talk and help give a sense of stability to the Program.

These are fair takes for sure.

I definitely see what you're saying on the 2nd point. If predictions for the team are more pessimistic because we have Bobby (let's say) that for sure could be seen as a red flag and suggest he's a relatively weak candidate. On this specific point I feel we should draw the line between perception and reality. The perception may be that he's a relatively weak candidate simply because he's relatively unknown. The reality may be that he's the perfect fit for this group of players.

Initially I was on your side of the argument, that we should have a "big name" hire to rejuvinate the program and bring some stability and confidence heading into the most important cycle in history. However, after debating and discussing it for weeks now, it does feel unlikely we'll get a name big enough to right the ship. Would I take Carlo Ancelotti over Bobby Bobb Smyrniotis? You bet. Not happening though. A few weeks ago I argued for Marsch, a more realistic target, and maybe a big enough name to get people excited again. But coaching is also about "fits" to a degree. Would he be a better fit than Smyrniotis? Maybe in some ways, perhaps not in others. 

There's definitely two different ways to think about this situation and admittedly I am torn between a guy like Bobby, who we know has interviewed, and someone like Marsch who may not even apply, let alone interview and get the job. 

[SpursFlu]

16 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Enes Sali? Bruno Davison? Jesse Costa? I can’t think of any really big names other than Tomori if that rule change actually happened, but there’s a bigger chance of me playing for Canada than him. 
 

People keep saying Thomas Christiansen, is there any reason to believe he’s on the market, or is it just that we’re a bigger country so maybe he wants to move up? I doubt he’s available, but I’d love it if he somehow brought him over. 

So what does someone have to do that Bobby Smyrniotis couldn't do? Like what do these people want? Someone to tickle their nuts? Like really what do people want? A phone call from Drake? An astronaut to facetime them? This is all so stupid. We need a football coach to win games on the field. I'm sure someone can clearly communicate why someone should represent Canada. I mean if you're a Canadian it really shouldn't be a big sales pitch should it? If someone wants to play for someone else, so long have a nice life. If some 20 yr old think he's too cool for Bobby Smyrniotis and Canada I'm good. Enjoy your 1 cap second half substitution against the Faroe Islands

Edited September 12, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Aird25]

39 minutes ago, phil03 said:

I. Because a) a coach with international experience presumably has active experience recruiting dual nats and b) after a turbulent time leading to the departure of the previous coach a know quantity who has experience in International is gonna help assuage whatever concerns dual nats might have about the state of the Program.

II. It isn't about the CPL specifically, its about the level of play and lack of international experience. Supposed you had a coach who coached say Olympia or Montagua in Central America while also having deep ties and knowledge of Canadian Soccer (the how is not important, its just for the sake of the discussion), would you believe that they would be a good option immediately rather then someone to keep in mind for the future? I, and believe many others, wouldn't and Smyrniotis being at Forge instead isn't assuasing our worries. 

The one thing about him as head coach that I'll admit makes me hesitate and his about the CPL specifically is the risk that some players sees him as more or less a CSB plant and that it makes the labor issues worse. Not his fault/not fair? Absolutely, but it's still a risk and it ought to be considered against him just like the fondness of his old Sigma players is a point for him.

I. TBH for me that ought to not even be considered a factor. If we do well in 2026 its going to be good for our domestic scene, alongside everything else, and if we do badly in 2026 then its going to be bad for our domestic scene, alongside everything else, so we ought to simply go for whatever coach gives us the best ods of the former and that we can afford, regardless of their nationality and where they coach.

For me, and I'll argue probably most Canadian Soccer fans when the casuals are considered, the national teams aren't a mean to an end. They are an end in and off themselves.

II. I would respectfully disagree with your analysis on this as for me the fact that predictions for the team would become more pessimistic with Bobby is instead a red flag next to its candidacy among others.

IMO the surprise factor we benefited from came from the fact we had been bad for so long it was easy for others to just sleep on us, and as we have a relatively solid player pool now we made them pay for it when things finally clicked for said player pool. We won't go back to that same under-the-radar situation anytime soon because people have seen what we could do.

Far from somebody who could try to replicate it I'd argue that we need precisely the opposite: a name that would help stop all the doom and gloom and/or gloating talk and help give a sense of stability to the Program.

I don't think there are many coaches in Canada that haven't worked with dual nationals. It comes with the territory. A coach with deep ties to Canadian soccer, and one that's found continued success with Canadian players (even in Honduras), and developing Canadian players would catch my attention (weird question though).

CSB have been playing a much longer game than I could have guessed if Bobby is only in the sport as a plant. He's been coaching for 20 years (apparently not enough experience for some). I don't think we qualified for the WC because of a surprise factor. I think we earned it.

Regardless, the masses will learn about our coaching hire from TSN and Sportsnet. If those networks follow suit, they will absolutely slag a Smyrniotis hire, even if he's perfect for the job. I want him hired in spite of all that

[VinceA]

14 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I don't think there are many coaches in Canada that haven't worked with dual nationals. It comes with the territory. A coach with deep ties to Canadian soccer, and one that's found continued success with Canadian players (even in Honduras), and developing Canadian players would catch my attention (weird question though).

CSB have been playing a much longer game than I could have guessed if Bobby is only in the sport as a plant. He's been coaching for 20 years (apparently not enough experience for some). I don't think we qualified for the WC because of a surprise factor. I think we earned it.

Regardless, the masses will learn about our coaching hire from TSN and Sportsnet. If those networks follow suit, they will absolutely slag a Smyrniotis hire, even if he's perfect for the job. I want him hired in spite of all that

Also it should be noted: If Herdman was in the mix for the CANMNT job today, a lot on this board would scoff at his credentials.

We can't always judge coaches on what they did before. Remember "ex-Real Madrid coach" Benito Floro?

[phil03]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

These are fair takes for sure.

I definitely see what you're saying on the 2nd point. If predictions for the team are more pessimistic because we have Bobby (let's say) that for sure could be seen as a red flag and suggest he's a relatively weak candidate. On this specific point I feel we should draw the line between perception and reality. The perception may be that he's a relatively weak candidate simply because he's relatively unknown. The reality may be that he's the perfect fit for this group of players.

Initially I was on your side of the argument, that we should have a "big name" hire to rejuvinate the program and bring some stability and confidence heading into the most important cycle in history. However, after debating and discussing it for weeks now, it does feel unlikely we'll get a name big enough to right the ship. Would I take Carlo Ancelotti over Bobby Bobb Smyrniotis? You bet. Not happening though. A few weeks ago I argued for Marsch, a more realistic target, and maybe a big enough name to get people excited again. But coaching is also about "fits" to a degree. Would he be a better fit than Smyrniotis? Maybe in some ways, perhaps not in others. 

There's definitely two different ways to think about this situation and admittedly I am torn between a guy like Bobby, who we know has interviewed, and someone like Marsch who may not even apply, let alone interview and get the job. 

I agree for the most part but I do have two points to add:

I. IMO the perception of Smyrniotis has a week candidate doesn't just come from the fact that he isn't a relatively unknown candidate but also his lack of experience on both the international scene and at a level where a player could be considered for the CNMT and I haven't really heard anything that addressed that elephant in the room. Like, if he had at least gotten some results against such teams in Concacaf Champions League or in Canadian Championship then maybe but he hasn't done that.

Ultimately, even the most strongly pro-CPL here aren't arguing we should field CPL players in the team. They, and I would say most of the forum is saying, that the CPL can be a springboard for higher leagues and that these players could eventually help the CMNT. Why should have a different take for coaches?

II. I do think there is a middle-ground between a Marsch, say, and Smyrniotis. I'd be happy with Perez or one of the two South American coaches rumoured.

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I. I don't think there are many coaches in Canada that haven't worked with dual nationals. It comes with the territory. II. A coach with deep ties to Canadian soccer, and one that's found continued success with Canadian players (even in Honduras), and developing Canadian players would catch my attention (weird question though).

III. CSB have been playing a much longer game than I could have guessed if Bobby is only in the sport as a plant. II. He's been coaching for 20 years (apparently not enough experience for some). IV. I don't think we qualified for the WC because of a surprise factor. I think we earned it.

V. Regardless, the masses will learn about our coaching hire from TSN and Sportsnet. If those networks follow suit, they will absolutely slag a Smyrniotis hire, even if he's perfect for the job. I want him hired in spite of all that

I. There is a difference between merely working with dual nats and to be responsible for recruiting them for a national team, without even going on the impression it gives.

II. The point is not about experience coaching overall. Its about experience with the international game and at a level that has some overlap with those the players in the CMNT play. Smyrniotis has no such experience at this point in time.

I, and others, find it concerning while you, and others do not, which is fair enough. We are simply disagreeing on the matter.

III. With all due respect, in my previous message I explicitely agreed in advance it wasn't warranted to see him this way... However, that doesn't mean some players won't in the current climate with the labor issues and it ought to be considered as a risk in the current labor climate.

IV. I never said the opposite. I simply stated where I thought what effect of surprise we had came from when someone else brought it up.

V. Smyrniotis would be a controversial hire and that isn't because of TSN and Sportsnet, its because the concerns several people have in this forum are actually fairly widespread among Canadian Soccer fans as it is. TSN and Sportsnet (and OneSoccer for that matter) wouldn't do their job if they didn't report on said concerns.

Edited September 13, 2023 by phil03

[RojitoTO]

Take a shot in the dark and give Giovanni Van Bronckhorst a call. He says he wants to coach in Europe but you never know. Maybe the project would be attractive to him.

[Mattd97]

Just checking for the hansi flick-phonzie reunion rumours

[GasPed]

20 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

Just checking for the hansi flick-phonzie reunion rumours

Nagelsman is also available.  Also, depending on how the next month goes, Tuchel could be a possibility.

[Vasi]

3 hours ago, GasPed said:

Nagelsman is also available.  Also, depending on how the next month goes, Tuchel could be a possibility.

One can argue that we have had some of our most successful runs under German Managers. 😊

[BearcatSA]

46 minutes ago, Vasi said:

One can argue that we have had some of our most successful runs under German Managers. 😊

Hey, we can get Eckhard Krautzun!  He's still kicking about.

[SpursFlu]

5 hours ago, Mattd97 said:

Just checking for the hansi flick-phonzie reunion rumours

At least they wouldn't have someone insisting on playing more friendlies. Those didn't exactly work out for him 

[Stoppage Time]

51 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

Hey, we can get Eckhard Krautzun!  He's still kicking about.

But no sex the night before matches!

[Unnamed Trialist]

9 hours ago, phil03 said:

I agree for the most part but I do have two points to add:

I. IMO the perception of Smyrniotis has a week candidate doesn't just come from the fact that he isn't a relatively unknown candidate but also his lack of experience on both the international scene and at a level where a player could be considered for the CNMT and I haven't really heard anything that addressed that elephant in the room. Like, if he had at least gotten some results against such teams in Concacaf Champions League or in Canadian Championship then maybe but he hasn't done that.

Ultimately, even the most strongly pro-CPL here aren't arguing we should field CPL players in the team. They, and I would say most of the forum is saying, that the CPL can be a springboard for higher leagues and that these players could eventually help the CMNT. Why should have a different take for coaches?

II. I do think there is a middle-ground between a Marsch, say, and Smyrniotis. I'd be happy with Perez or one of the two South American coaches rumoured.

I. There is a difference between merely working with dual nats and to be responsible for recruiting them for a national team, without even going on the impression it gives.

II. The point is not about experience coaching overall. Its about experience with the international game and at a level that has some overlap with those the players in the CMNT play. Smyrniotis has no such experience at this point in time.

I, and others, find it concerning while you, and others do not, which is fair enough. We are simply disagreeing on the matter.

III. With all due respect, in my previous message I explicitely agreed in advance it wasn't warranted to see him this way... However, that doesn't mean some players won't in the current climate with the labor issues and it ought to be considered as a risk in the current labor climate.

IV. I never said the opposite. I simply stated where I thought what effect of surprise we had came from when someone else brought it up.

V. Smyrniotis would be a controversial hire and that isn't because of TSN and Sportsnet, its because the concerns several people have in this forum are actually fairly widespread among Canadian Soccer fans as it is. TSN and Sportsnet (and OneSoccer for that matter) wouldn't do their job if they didn't report on said concerns.

I fully agree that Smyrniotis is not experienced enough. And maybe not even that good. Forge performs consistently, and has won in the crunch in finals, but for most of this season, for example, they have underperformed. They haven't imposed superiority when they have it. He is not even clearly a better coach than Wheeldon, who has the misfortune of not winning a game or three when a trophy was on the line. 

If he is a good coach he should aspire to more and look for a better job, in Greece or MLS for a start. He does not even seem to have the ambition, and seems to prefer his little hobbit-hole in Hamilton to finding out what may lie beyond the misty mountains.

I am not so worried about his lack of contact with top-level players, I see him posing with Larin and appreciate he's respected enough by enough of the CMNT that they rest would follow. But he has not seen the level of competition we are talking about, apart from a well-played tie vs. a Mexican powerhouse. He's still a foot-stamping fiddler if you put him beside the first and second violins we have playing for us. So I'd prefer we wouldn't go that way.