Next CanMNT manager (Herdman to TFC)

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

Sounds like lazy journalism, at best.

Yep, ask BigAndy how long it took him to put the meeting expenses factoid into perspective.  When you leave out obvious details you are either being a lazy, poor reporter, or doing it on purpose because it doesnt fit the story you are writing.  Which makes you wonder why write a story and use some facts that are easily disputed and misleading??  Are you targeting people who dont care about soccer and wont look into your claims?  Maybe you dont cover soccer and just pop in to write a "hard hitting" story about corruption, mismanagement gender inequality and snatch up the details that appear (to people who dont follow soccer) support the gist of your story.  

 

[grigorio]

3 minutes ago, Ivan said:

By the way, was noted soccer journalist Rick Westhead at the Herdman announcement press conference? 

Seriously. This guy's put down more ink about Canadian soccer than all other journalists (Kloke excluded) combined over the past year. I'd expect him front and centre. 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Or maybe he simply assumed most people would realize that the main reasons for the increase are likely to be related to the pandemic finally being over in 2022 meaning far fewer zoom meetings and the extra expenses associated with a World Cup qualification?

Comprehensive journalism would give the background information required to make the assumptions you are stating. He could simply say "meeting expenses have returned to normal levels" or "2020 was X 2021 was X etc". 

He cherry picked a statistics and presented it in a way that looks poor on the CSA executives. He didnt talk about any other figures in our costs other than the broad cost for the mens and womens teams. Why was marketing costs not included in the tweet...? Perhaps because public opinion gets more fired up about top level execs "wasting" money on suits or meetings. 

However, lets assume youre correct that westhead assumed everyone would know its no big deal and its because of covid. Has it turned out that way? Obviously not because even people on this forum are using these figures as a criticism of CSA and not Covid. If a journalist makes an assumption about how his audience will perceive his message, and they perceive it differently, than his communication skills need some work as he wasnt very clear on his intentions. 

Its immoral journalism at worst and lazy journalism at best.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Once again irony is dead 

[VinceA]

OS Speculating that Canada Soccer might try to get a General Secretary first on a permanent basis before a head coach since de Vos is interim.

I get it since the last thing you want is a coach brought in by Crooks and de Vos who then doesn't vibe with whoever the General Secretary ends up being if de Vos doesnt remain.

They're also saying to give Biello the rest if the year. I don't rate Biello at all so I hope not.

 

 

 

[Ottawafan]

24 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

That's how you constantly repeat the narrative of a reporter's alleged bias.

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, VinceA said:

OS Speculating that Canada Soccer might try to get a General Secretary first on a permanent basis before a head coach since de Vos is interim.

I get it since the last thing you want is a coach brought in by Crooks and de Vos who then doesn't vibe with whoever the General Secretary ends up being if de Vos doesnt remain.

They're also saying to give Biello the rest if the year. I don't rate Biello at all so I hope not.

 

 

 

At first I was fine with Biello running the show over the next 6 months to a year.  But the more I think abut it, this is an important period.  The program needs more than just stability, it needs to focus on going forward, elevating the program.  Maybe he is the right person for that job but it shouldn't preclude the CSA from finding the right person to steer the NT.  Making Copa is a must.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

They definitely need to make a permanent hire well before the Nations League games in November. The game in Japan in October (if that's confimed?) should be the chance for the new coach to get to know his players.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[dyslexic nam]

14 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

At first I was fine with Biello running the show over the next 6 months to a year.  But the more I think abut it, this is an important period.  The program needs more than just stability, it needs to focus on going forward, elevating the program.  Maybe he is the right person for that job but it shouldn't preclude the CSA from finding the right person to steer the NT.  Making Copa is a must.

I don’t think the Copa qualification will be decided by whether or not Biello is the coach.  No one would radically alter the system at this point.  

I am fine with Biello doing his thing for a bit.  In the background, the CSA will be doing their due diligence and trying to find the best coach they can afford.  That person will come on board in time to coach for the Copa (which we will qualify for) and then build to 2026.  In the interim, the CSA gets to save a few shekels and not rush into a coaching hire.  
 

Edited August 30, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[blueseeka]

31 minutes ago, VinceA said:

They're also saying to give Biello the rest if the year. I don't rate Biello at all so I hope not.

 

 

 

I realize they are saying temporarily but this should paint a real picture of the situation with very important NL games coming in November. I expect a very cheap fulltime hire

[dyslexic nam]

Just now, blueseeka said:

I realize they are saying temporarily but this should paint a real picture of the situation with very important NL games coming in November. I expect a very cheap fulltime hire

I may be a naive optimist but I don’t read the tea leaves the same way.  They are about to put in place a head coach that will (hopefully) still be in place to lead us into a home World Cup - which will raise the profile (and scrutiny) of soccer in this country to unprecedented levels.  That isn’t a decision they will want to rush into - especially with all the multi-layered bullshit of the last 12 months.  They have been called in front of a Parliamentary Committee to answer to perceived incompetence.  The last thing they want to do is publicly fall on their face with arguably the biggest coaching appointment in our history.   IMO, not rushing this decision shouldn’t be construed as anything other than appropriate caution.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 minutes ago, blueseeka said:

I realize they are saying temporarily but this should paint a real picture of the situation with very important NL games coming in November. I expect a very cheap fulltime hire

No need for it to be a contract out to 2026 IMO. Two years with an option to extend would be fine.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

I'm not saying that his journalism is the main crisis of the CMNT. But surely its alright to call a spade a spade regardless of how much of an impact it has.  The impact of westhead in this context is incomplete info towards the public that has resulted in increased division amongst CSA execs and the public over the wrong topic. Yes, theres reasons for division and criticism, but not over the budget for meetings. 

[TOcanadafan]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

You realize that meeting expenses went from around 3m to 4m to 2.7m to 1m to 4m (2018-2023).  To act like meeting expenses went up is absolutely twisting the narrative. They always hover around 3-4m and we had 1 year where they dropped to 1million. If anything we should be happy for the drop in the one year and expect most years to be 3-4m.

This is the problem with westhead. He reports that meeting expenses went up 3mil and he gets public opinion pissed. He doesnt report how 4million in meetings is within our expected operating budget. Moreover, its likely that lots of meeting expenses were postponed in 2022 and therefore the costs went into 2023. If you average out the 2 years, then 2.5m is a modest sum.  

Westhead technically isnt lying in his reporting, but hes unethically presenting only parts of the data to create outrage. 


EDIT:  The figure quoted on this forum of 1m to 4m is incorrect. it went from 2.7m to 3.8m and only covers up to 2022.  I shouldnt have just assumed the quoted figures were correct.

Your figures from 2020 and 2021, not 2022 and 2023, so why are these reported values incorrect?  The reporting of figures can be a two-sided street, as you seem to report only figures that twist a pro-CSA narrative.  
The fact remains, for a Top 50 FIFA and G7 nation, the financial / business state of our association is embarrassing. The lack of full financial transparency (not providing detailed financial reports, details on the one-sided CSB deal), CSA execs in the Bontis / Cochrane actively engaging in a combative manner against the players including (the lack of) negotiation…when these individuals are your cash cow - extremely poor leadership.  

[SF]

15 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

Your figures from 2020 and 2021, not 2022 and 2023, so why are these reported values incorrect?  The reporting of figures can be a two-sided street, as you seem to report only figures that twist a pro-CSA narrative.  
The fact remains, for a Top 50 FIFA and G7 nation, the financial / business state of our association is embarrassing. The lack of full financial transparency (not providing detailed financial reports, details on the one-sided CSB deal), CSA execs in the Bontis / Cochrane actively engaging in a combative manner against the players including (the lack of) negotiation…when these individuals are your cash cow - extremely poor leadership.  

Your second paragraph summarizes the situation well.

Debating the quantum of a variable cost line item is only a symptom of the problem. I have no idea what should be a normal expense level for this, but if the ship is sinking you batten down the hatches. 

The CSA has consistently shown an inability to imagine their financial future (which isn't that hard to do) and react accordingly.

[Bigandy]

29 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

Your figures from 2020 and 2021, not 2022 and 2023, so why are these reported values incorrect?  The reporting of figures can be a two-sided street, as you seem to report only figures that twist a pro-CSA narrative.  
The fact remains, for a Top 50 FIFA and G7 nation, the financial / business state of our association is embarrassing. The lack of full financial transparency (not providing detailed financial reports, details on the one-sided CSB deal), CSA execs in the Bontis / Cochrane actively engaging in a combative manner against the players including (the lack of) negotiation…when these individuals are your cash cow - extremely poor leadership.  

My figures include 2018-2022. (Although i used your number of 1million for 2022 when in reality the cost was 3.9 when i did research). 

Im including 4 years worth of data. I can include more if you like? 

As for 2023..... those numbers dont exist until 2023 is over. Im not sure what you want me to do about that? 

So to be clear, I have included the 4 most recent years of financial data. How many years back would be appropriate to not put a pro CSA narrative? 

To be perfectly honest, I have no idea how I am putting any spin on the financial figures? 
However, I do admit my presentation wasnt as clear as it could be since I used the incorrect figures you quoted. 

Here are the actual approximate costs of meetings. 
2022: 3.9
2021:2.7
2020: 4
2019: 3
 

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

I don’t think the Copa qualification will be decided by whether or not Biello is the coach.  No one would radically alter the system at this point.  

I am fine with Biello doing his thing for a bit.  In the background, the CSA will be doing their due diligence and trying to find the best coach they can afford.  That person will come on board in time to coach for the Copa (which we will qualify for) and then build to 2026.  In the interim, the CSA gets to save a few shekels and not rush into a coaching hire.  
 

I agree I can't see Biello brining in a new system especially because he was part of the staff with all these players.  I do wonder if he will get the same out of the players as Herdman did.  I know the loss to the USA was tough but even if Canada had been on their game, USA was on another level that night.  Will Biello be able to push the right buttons to get the most out of the players?  Nobody knows.

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I agree I can't see Biello brining in a new system especially because he was part of the staff with all these players.  I do wonder if he will get the same out of the players as Herdman did.  I know the loss to the USA was tough but even if Canada had been on their game, USA was on another level that night.  Will Biello be able to push the right buttons to get the most out of the players?  Nobody knows.

I think he will be able to get as much out of them as Herdman could if he hadn’t left.   He couldn’t match the inertia of early WCQ.  That was unbelievable - but we left that positive energy in the rear view mirror a long time ago.  

I just want to get the best person we can for Copa and WC2026. If taking a few months to do a proper recruitment process helps accomplish that, I am all for it.  
 

[TOcanadafan]

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by TOcanadafan

[TOcanadafan]

28 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

My figures include 2018-2022. (Although i used your number of 1million for 2022 when in reality the cost was 3.9 when i did research). 

Im including 4 years worth of data. I can include more if you like? 

As for 2023..... those numbers dont exist until 2023 is over. Im not sure what you want me to do about that? 

So to be clear, I have included the 4 most recent years of financial data. How many years back would be appropriate to not put a pro CSA narrative? 

To be perfectly honest, I have no idea how I am putting any spin on the financial figures? 
However, I do admit my presentation wasnt as clear as it could be since I used the incorrect figures you quoted. 

Here are the actual approximate costs of meetings. 
2022: 3.9
2021:2.7
2020: 4
2019: 3
 

I did err in my initial post… the figure went up $1M.  But I think your figures are off by a year according to the financial reports from 2020 and 2021.  We don’t even have the 2022 report yet… still busy cooking the books perhaps… and not that these are detailed, especially as compared to the USSF reports anyways.  

[Kadenge]

Thinking back to when KJ  lost it after the NL game vs the USA. He came down very hard re the tactical set up. I was a bit surprised back then as it was quite a tirade. Not sure if it was justified or not, but it reinforces what many have stated for sometime now, that John had hit a ceiling with the CMNT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

I did err in my initial post… the figure went up $1M.  But I think your figures are off by a year according to the financial reports from 2020 and 2021.  We don’t even have the 2022 report yet… still busy cooking the books perhaps… and not that these are detailed, especially as compared to the USSF reports anyways.  

2021 is 2.7 as per your picture and as per my post. 
2020 is 3.8 as per your picture and 4m as per my post (where i said approx figures). 

You literally just confirmed my numbers. 

As for 2022, the financial statements are not published publicly but they have been submitted. Westhead specifically quotes these numbers which is how both you and I got these figures. We can debate if you think westhead is lying about these numbers but wouldnt that invalidate your entire argument? 

I am just so confused. You start this whole discussion based off the increase of expenses from 2021 to 2022 and now youre saying that we dont have access to 2022. 

[SF]

10 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

I did err in my initial post… the figure went up $1M.  But I think your figures are off by a year according to the financial reports from 2020 and 2021.  We don’t even have the 2022 report yet… still busy cooking the books perhaps… and not that these are detailed, especially as compared to the USSF reports anyways.  

2022 financial statements have been released and are on the CSA website (to the credit of the CSA). The admin/meetings line item is $3.9mm.

I have no inside knowledge, but I can promise you that drawing conclusions from one expense line item is pointless. There are probably and literally 100 different expense types buried in that number.

The meta point is that the CSA has, from a business/financial perspective, managed itself into the ground.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, SF said:

2022 financial statements have been released and are on the CSA website (to the credit of the CSA). The admin/meetings line item is $3.9mm.

I have no inside knowledge, but I can promise you that drawing conclusions from one expense line item is pointless. There are probably and literally 100 different expense types buried in that number.

The meta point is that the CSA has, from a business/financial perspective, managed itself into the ground.

Can you send a link to 2022. I can only find the annual report on the website. 

Great point! The CSA has financial issues but the issue isnt our run of the mill admin costs.