Match Thread: Gold Cup - Group Stage: Canada vs Guadeloupe - Tuesday, June 27, 2023 - 7 pm ET/4 pm PT

[Bigandy]

35 minutes ago, costarg said:

Here's a little game of logic.....

Our strongest and deepest positions are wingers and fullbacks, 100% confident we all agree.

We're weakest and have no "strong" depth at CB.  101% we all agree.

So what do we do?  Play in a back 3 formation which limits us to only 2 of our strongest players and forces us to play 3 of our weakest players.  Is there even an ounce of logic or common sense is in this?

Logic would imply 4-4-2 or 4-3-3/4-5-1. 

Cavallini - JRR

Millar - Stache - Osorio - Hoilett

Adekugbe - Macgraw - Vitoria - Laryea

 

As for the gold cup squad, we obv have to change our thoughts with staq and adekugbe dropping out.

Our gold cup squad is very CB heavy and light at cm. I could see us playing 3-4-3 
 miller Vitoria bombito 

Millar oso/spoony/ahmed loturi laryea
nelson Brym hoilett

I am not sure how oso would do next to loturi as an 8 without a 3rd cm. 

I see mcgraw as a central cb and bombito as a RCB only. Millar as a wingback. 

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

There is quite a bit of logic (for our regular squad, not the gold cup).

Even though we have lots of depth at winger and full back, it is wing back where our stars play best (davies, buchanan, even laryea and adekugbe). A 3-5-2 allows us to also play both david and larin. A back 3 also has covered up quite a bit of deficiencies within our CB pool. Lets say we play a 4-3-3.

Davies cornelius vitoria johnston
Staq kone oso
Buchanan David Hoilett/Larin?

In a 4-3-3 both laryea and adekugbe do not start so fullback depth is irrelevant for our starters. As for wingers, we only really have buchanan (assuming davies is going to be a LB/LWB from now on.) So we either drop larin or play him out of position. Davies is also stifled with more defensive responsibility and buchanan is also arguably better as a wingback. 

Ranking our players and their best position.
1. Davies - WB
2. David - St
3. Staq - CM
4. Larin - St
5. Buchanan - WB
6. Johnston - RB
7. Kone - CM
8. Laryea - WB
9. Oso - CM
10. vitoria -CB 
11. Adekgube - Equal at LB/LWB
12. Hoilett - Winger

Based on the list above, its clearer that the system that gets our best players in their best position is a 2 striker formation with wingbacks. Now obviously you can question that tactical acumen of such a formation, but if we are just looking at what suits our squad, I think the 3-5-2 is logical. As great as adekugbe is, hes the guy that gets sacrified for another CB. I would much rather have 3 cb for the additional solidity defensively and to allow buchanan and davies more freedom in a wingback role. 
 

Even on paper, It's not about getting our best 11 on the pitch, it's always a question of balance.  Fielding 2 strikers, "because they're better players", does not make us a better team.  It just weakens us at the back, and they don't end up getting the ball.  It's pointless as demonstrated over and over since November.

[canuckgbp]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

Even on paper, It's not about getting our best 11 on the pitch, it's always a question of balance.  Fielding 2 strikers, "because they're better players", does not make us a better team.  It just weakens us at the back, and they don't end up getting the ball.  It's pointless as demonstrated over and over since November.

Playing 2 strikers against better teams just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Not sure Herdman sees it this way tho. 

[Floortom]

48 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

What are we expecting for attendance?

Looks like a ton of tickets still available...rain in the forecast, tuesday night, terrible opponent, a very poor Canadian roster. TBH i have tickets and am not particularly interested

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

Even on paper, It's not about getting our best 11 on the pitch, it's always a question of balance.  Fielding 2 strikers, "because they're better players", does not make us a better team.  It just weakens us at the back, and they don't end up getting the ball.  It's pointless as demonstrated over and over since November.

100% . I acknowledged that a 3-5-2 may not be the best tactical set up in my reply.  However, I disagree that it weakens us at the back. the 3 cb formations have seen a bunch of average defenders become the strongest defense in WCQ. A 4-3-3 would make us much weaker defensively in my mind. Vitoria and miller would get roasted for speed and we would still be vulnarable aerially. Davies would leave gaps at LB. David and larin cut passing lanes extremely well when both on the pitch. I dont think putting millar or hoillett out wide provides any greater defensive prowess. 

[gator]

48 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

What are we expecting for attendance?

I am not one for going to Ticketmaster and counting unsold seats but I will say many MNT fans I spoke with at Forge yesterday are not going, it is a bit of an experimental roster which I am looking forward to but the big crowds at BMO during WCQ were enhanced by tourists or casuals! The forecast is for rain throughout the match so I will be pleasantly surprised if we get 10K vs an opponent most fans know nothing about!

[gator]

53 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

 

Double post

Edited June 26, 2023 by gator

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, canuckgbp said:

Playing 2 strikers against better teams just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Not sure Herdman sees it this way tho. 

I am not disagreeing but why is that? The normal justification is because a 2 striker formation would mean a 2 CM formation. However, where is the tactical disaster in a 3-5-2 coming from?

[MtlMario]

 Crystal ball time: Canada wins 4-0.

[Ottawafan]

Here’s a prediction. Those of us at the game will be wet. 

[Obinna]

5 hours ago, Bigandy said:

As for the gold cup squad, we obv have to change our thoughts with staq and adekugbe dropping out.

Our gold cup squad is very CB heavy and light at cm. I could see us playing 3-4-3 
 miller Vitoria bombito 

Millar oso/spoony/ahmed loturi laryea
nelson Brym hoilett

I am not sure how oso would do next to loturi as an 8 without a 3rd cm. 

I see mcgraw as a central cb and bombito as a RCB only. Millar as a wingback. 

Hard not to see Hoilett and Nelson getting big minutes in the middle of the park, given how light CM is. I hope they are least split time between inside and outside.

[Bigandy]

Just now, Obinna said:

Hard not to see Hoilett and Nelson getting big minutes in the middle of the park, given how light CM is. I hope they are least split time between inside and outside.

I'd love to see them inside but we have oso and spoony who play in more of a CAM role. I cant see Jr play as an 8 so if hes central, hes the 10. Jr as a 10 isnt great defensively so starting oso/nelson/spoony and fraser/loturi seems a bit unbalanced imo. 

Oso is going to have huge minutes in the middle as well. That suggests hoillet, nelson, and oso as our 3 cm. That is incredibly unbalanced. I cant see all 3 of them getting big minutes in the middle of the park. I think oso is the only one who gets big minutes centrally. 

[narduch]

3 hours ago, MtlMario said:

 Crystal ball time: Canada wins 4-0.

Shaffelburg hat trick 

[footballfreak]

I think the concerns about the midfield are somewhat overblown. Obviously losing Eustaquio is a blow, but I don’t necessarily see the need to change shape over it. 3-4-3 just puts even more defensive responsibility on the central midfielders.

Ahmed is very comfortable on the left side of a trio and loves to win the ball back in the middle and attacking thirds. As I understand it, Loturi can manage as a 6(?), and Oso can play his familiar role.
 

Admittedly there isn’t a lot of cover beyond that, but we do have guys at other positions (Hoilett, Laryea) who can step into that trio if need be.

 

 

[footballfreak]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I'd love to see them inside but we have oso and spoony who play in more of a CAM role. I cant see Jr play as an 8 so if hes central, hes the 10. Jr as a 10 isnt great defensively so starting oso/nelson/spoony and fraser/loturi seems a bit unbalanced imo. 

Oso is going to have huge minutes in the middle as well. That suggests hoillet, nelson, and oso as our 3 cm. That is incredibly unbalanced. I cant see all 3 of them getting big minutes in the middle of the park. I think oso is the only one who gets big minutes centrally. 

Junior is super underrated defensively. He loves to get stuck in, and Reading used him as a wingback for some (all?) of last season.

[trc2014]

Can someone explain to me why giving spoony even one minute makes sense?  Great to have on the training pitch but 1) isn’t currently playing at club level and 2) isn’t in the future plans for this squad - even short term beyond this tournament unless something changes positively at the club level.

[king1010]

5 minutes ago, trc2014 said:

Can someone explain to me why giving spoony even one minute makes sense?  Great to have on the training pitch but 1) isn’t currently playing at club level and 2) isn’t in the future plans for this squad - even short term beyond this tournament unless something changes positively at the club level.

Probably Herdman doing him a favor and putting him in the shop window. He’s a “brotherhood” guy. 

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

Junior is super underrated defensively. He loves to get stuck in, and Reading used him as a wingback for some (all?) of last season.

I dont disagree but you have to consider where JR occupies space. He may have defensive talent as a cam or wingback but his skill set is not suited to be an 8 or 6. A midfield trio of Oso, nelson and hoilett is insanely unbalanced. They may all be decent 1v1 defenders and all decent defending from a Cam's position but none of them could fill the staq role plus they would all be trying to occupy the same attacking space.  This would be like KDB, B. Silva and Foden all playing CM. They all are actually super talented defensively in their own right, but Man city would never win the champs league without more balance in the midfield.  

[footballfreak]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I dont disagree but you have to consider where JR occupies space. He may have defensive talent as a cam or wingback but his skill set is not suited to be an 8 or 6. A midfield trio of Oso, nelson and hoilett is insanely unbalanced. They may all be decent 1v1 defenders and all decent defending from a Cam's position but none of them could fill the staq role plus they would all be trying to occupy the same attacking space.  This would be like KDB, B. Silva and Foden all playing CM. They all are actually super talented defensively in their own right, but Man city would never win the champs league without more balance in the midfield.  

That trio would be horrendous. I’m just saying he can play as an 8 under the right circumstances. He can handle it defensively. That’s all.

The whole hypothetical seems moot though, since I don’t see Nelson starting.

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

That trio would be horrendous. I’m just saying he can play as an 8 under the right circumstances. He can handle it defensively. That’s all.

The whole hypothetical seems moot though, since I don’t see Nelson starting.

 I think youre right if he plays as a 10 or as a double 8 with a 6 behind him. I wouldnt ever start him as 1 of 2 CM and/or without a proper holding mid besides him. 

But ya I agree with you. I cant see nelson logging big minutes at CM as it was suggested earlier. 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

On 6/25/2023 at 2:28 PM, spitfire said:

The level of disrespect is palpable...

I actually rate Liam and feel he has been rather unlucky.

On 6/25/2023 at 2:28 PM, spitfire said:

Liam has never been given an actual good run at playing HIS actual position for Canada

@dyslexic nam , when you start taking bets, put me down for Liam hitting the post or crossbar again tomorrow night. I have a feeling he will work super hard and look great but get unlucky again.

[Obinna]

Oso, Hoilett and Nelson should clearly be the CAMs in this team, with the latter two playing out wide if needed. Jury is out on Loturi until we see him at this level, but I suspect the best trio we can play with this roster is Oso-Hoilett-Loturi. If we play a double pivot drop Oso back and keep Hoilett top of the triangle. Nelson and Ahmed should be the subs for Oso and Hoilett. Fraser should be the sub for Loturi.

Really not sure what to make of Spoony. I guess he is an 8 or 10 in this team too. He's not a 6 and probably not a wing.

I just hope Nelson gets looks inside. I think he has a bright future there. I am fine with him playing out wide, his natural position, but I really liked what I saw of him as an 8 for Toronto.

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

I actually rate Liam and feel he has been rather unlucky.

@dyslexic nam , when you start taking bets, put me down for Liam hitting the post or crossbar again tomorrow night. I have a feeling he will work super hard and look great but get unlucky again.

Crap, thanks for the reminder.   I forgot to get his address.   Oof.  

[canuckgbp]

Update on the tickets 

[costarg]

10 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I am not disagreeing but why is that? The normal justification is because a 2 striker formation would mean a 2 CM formation. However, where is the tactical disaster in a 3-5-2 coming from?

We've played 2 strikers since Oct/Nov.  I'd be curious to pull up the stats, but from what I recall, Larin and David barely touched the ball at all when we played equal or better opponents.  We could not get the ball to them.  If they did touch the ball, it was way too far from the opposing net for them to be any kind of threat.  Strikers are supposed to strike, you can't do that from the center of the pitch. 

Weaker teams need to have numbers behind the ball, not beyond the ball.  Having two strikers up top just ensures we won't get and keep possession.  The logical and most reasonable decision would be to play a 4-5-1 (defensive 4-3-3) or even a 4-2-3-1 vs stronger opponents. 

Crazy part is... we have the perfect players to do just that!  We can play Davies and Tajon on the wings and have them join the attack at every opportunity, while they're fast enough and have the stamina to track back and play on the defensive side as well.   

We got away with 3-5-2 vs the weaker teams in CONCACAF, but got easily exposed vs the serious competition.  As expected, they figured it out real quick.

Edited June 27, 2023 by costarg