Taryck TJ Tahid

[Obinna]

42 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The "first team minutes" narrative has been big on this board for decades, literally. We saw it with Jamie Peters, with Wyn Belotte, others. Canada fans seem to really prefer it and I feel you can't argue against it here. It's all shortcuts and fast tracks and getting the best possible education in your profession seems to matter little.

I'm sort of shocked by it, mostly because it goes against the values of our country, which I think is the country with the most average years studying in the world. 

Except for the true prodigies who are above everything, normally when you're young and talented those who love and care about you say "look we can't teach you anything more here, you need to go somewhere where you'll be challenged."

If TJ goes to a u-19 program, say Villareal just because that's a connection his dad has set up, and excels, then he trains occasionally with the first team and may get called up. If not, he develops skills of the highest quality (like Lucas Días btw). If he stays in cpl and excels he gets to play more minutes in Cpl.

Final thing: do people really believe a kid playing in the Sporting Lisbon system is a failure because he hasn't gotten a first team contract aged 20?

Good post and some good points made.

Do I think Lucas Dias is a failure? Not yet. The rumoured move to Aberdeen shows clubs value him. I think he has to move on soon though, and to a club that's of a decent level. Aberdeen being one of the best SPL clubs not named Celtic/Rangers would have been an appropriate landing spot. We'll see what his future holds...

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The "first team minutes" narrative has been big on this board for decades, literally. We saw it with Jamie Peters, with Wyn Belotte, others. Canada fans seem to really prefer it and I feel you can't argue against it here. It's all shortcuts and fast tracks and getting the best possible education in your profession seems to matter little.

I'm sort of shocked by it, mostly because it goes against the values of our country, which I think is the country with the most average years studying in the world. 

Except for the true prodigies who are above everything, normally when you're young and talented those who love and care about you say "look we can't teach you anything more here, you need to go somewhere where you'll be challenged."

If TJ goes to a u-19 program, say Villareal just because that's a connection his dad has set up, and excels, then he trains occasionally with the first team and may get called up. If not, he develops skills of the highest quality (like Lucas Días btw). If he stays in cpl and excels he gets to play more minutes in Cpl.

Final thing: do people really believe a kid playing in the Sporting Lisbon system is a failure because he hasn't gotten a first team contract aged 20?

I think the reason people are not high on Lucas anymore is that he has not even made the second team at that age where many of his peers are and some are even playing for the first team I believe.  If he was loaned out to a side playing at the level Corbeanu for example was at that age, people may have a different view but he is not even playing professionally really at that age.

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, An Observer said:

I think the reason people are not high on Lucas anymore is that he has not even made the second team at that age where many of his peers are and some are even playing for the first team I believe.  If he was loaned out to a side playing at the level Corbeanu for example was at that age, people may have a different view but he is not even playing professionally really at that age.

Lucas has not been released by Sporting. He is on their rosters and they are still developing him. He still gets minutes. 

Really, guys, do you not have any idea how it works? Sure, there are kids who get early call-ups. Then there are kids who get them later. The vast majority of B and reserve team players on the rosters of the greatest most powerful clubs in the world have not seen first team minutes. But instead of thinking these guys are on track and in the most privileged position a young player can be in, it's all handwringing and furrowed brows about first team minutes. 

My view is that this attitude shows an incorrect understanding of player development. As long as you are on the development roster, they value you. Otherwise they'd let you go in a flash.

I was looking at Busquets a while ago, his debut was at almost 21 years old with the first team. Looking at others: Puyol was 21, Alba had his pro debut age 20, the list goes on. We are talking about elite players. You hang in and fight for what you want as long as you can, and if it does not work out, you are in your early 20s and are ready for a pro career elsewhere. 

[InglewoodJack]

11 hours ago, Big_M said:

if he keeps rising in cpl theres no way hes going to play youth ball at 18 with 2-3 years of solid cpl performances/playing time...pepple went to getafe with less than 15 cpl games and less than 200 minutes...another one colyn went to spal with 1 game 4 minutes at whitecaps...different story here

I'm using "youth ball" and B team interchangeably here. I don't want him playing for some big team's U19, but if he's offered a similar path to Davies where a club like Bayern wants to develop him on the B team, that would be cool.

Though you bring up a good point- Pepple was signed by one of the best teams in the championship and retained by that team when they got to the premier league all based on 6 weeks (?) of top form, so Tahid's actual production, especially if he's a starter scoring goals next year, should get him a lot of attention on the market when he's ready to move.

[InglewoodJack]

11 hours ago, Big_M said:

if he keeps rising in cpl theres no way hes going to play youth ball at 18 with 2-3 years of solid cpl performances/playing time...pepple went to getafe with less than 15 cpl games and less than 200 minutes...another one colyn went to spal with 1 game 4 minutes at whitecaps...different story here

I'm using "youth ball" and B team interchangeably here. I don't want him playing for some big team's U19, but if he's offered a similar path to Davies where a club like Bayern wants to develop him on the B team, that would be cool.

Though you bring up a good point- Pepple was signed by one of the best teams in the championship and retained by that team when they got to the premier league all based on 6 weeks (?) of top form in the CPL, so Tahid's actual production, especially if he's a starter scoring goals next year, should get him a lot of attention on the market when he's ready to move.

[InglewoodJack]

11 hours ago, Big_M said:

if he keeps rising in cpl theres no way hes going to play youth ball at 18 with 2-3 years of solid cpl performances/playing time...pepple went to getafe with less than 15 cpl games and less than 200 minutes...another one colyn went to spal with 1 game 4 minutes at whitecaps...different story here

I'm using "youth ball" and B team interchangeably here. I don't want him playing for some big team's U19, but if he's offered a similar path to Davies where a club like Bayern wants to develop him on the B team, that would be cool.

Though you bring up a good point- Pepple was signed by one of the best teams in the championship and retained by that team when they got to the premier league all based on 6 weeks (?) of top form in the CPL, so Tahid's actual production, especially if he's a starter scoring goals next year, should get him a lot of attention on the market when he's ready to move.

[InglewoodJack]

6 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Final thing: do people really believe a kid playing in the Sporting Lisbon system is a failure because he hasn't gotten a first team contract aged 20?

No, but I think most people remember him from that U23 team where he played with Tajon, ZBG, Brym, even guys like Tabla, Godinho, Pantemis and others whose chances with the national team have come and gone, so to see that after all this time he still hasn't made the senior team- it just feels like he's been at the same level forever while all those other guys either moved up  or down.

Now obviously Dias was by far the youngest player on that team and is still only 20, and the second he gets top team minutes, either with Sporting or elsewhere, we'll all go back to being very excited about him, but I think people see the guys who he played youth soccer with who are now current, or in some cases ex-national team players makes it seem like his development has been a lot slower than it has been.

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

No, but I think most people remember him from that U23 team where he played with Tajon, ZBG, Brym, even guys like Tabla, Godinho, Pantemis and others whose chances with the national team have come and gone, so to see that after all this time he still hasn't made the senior team- it just feels like he's been at the same level forever while all those other guys either moved up  or down.

Now obviously Dias was by far the youngest player on that team and is still only 20, and the second he gets top team minutes, either with Sporting or elsewhere, we'll all go back to being very excited about him, but I think people see the guys who he played youth soccer with who are now current, or in some cases ex-national team players makes it seem like his development has been a lot slower than it has been.

He's physically slighter and not an explosive prodigy, I watched a few games two years ago in Youth League. He also plays a hard position to fit into a first team, creative or attacking mid.

But no, very Canadian don't you think? Discriminate against size and ignore skill. So if Sporting privileges skill and is patient about size as he grows and strengthens, time for Canada fans to wear sackcloth and toss ashes on our heads.

[Obinna]

34 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Lucas has not been released by Sporting. He is on their rosters and they are still developing him. He still gets minutes. 

Really, guys, do you not have any idea how it works? Sure, there are kids who get early call-ups. Then there are kids who get them later. The vast majority of B and reserve team players on the rosters of the greatest most powerful clubs in the world have not seen first team minutes. But instead of thinking these guys are on track and in the most privileged position a young player can be in, it's all handwringing and furrowed brows about first team minutes. 

My view is that this attitude shows an incorrect understanding of player development. As long as you are on the development roster, they value you. Otherwise they'd let you go in a flash.

I was looking at Busquets a while ago, his debut was at almost 21 years old with the first team. Looking at others: Puyol was 21, Alba had his pro debut age 20, the list goes on. We are talking about elite players. You hang in and fight for what you want as long as you can, and if it does not work out, you are in your early 20s and are ready for a pro career elsewhere. 

This is reassuring but we are talking Barcelona not Villarreal. If we were taking about this player leaving Vancouver now and going to Barca U-19 I would perhaps be a little more receptive. Also, for every Busquets or Alba there are players who slip out of that environment into relative obscurity. Furthermore, how about some examples of players already playing pro, then going to a youth team at Villarreal, then working their way through that system all the way to the first team? How many North Americans have done it successfully? I think people's apprehension about it makes sense until we see more examples. Willing to change my mind in light of some success stories.

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But no, very Canadian don't you think? Discriminate against size and ignore skill. So if Sporting privileges skill and is patient about size as he grows and strengthens, time for Canada fans to wear sackcloth and toss ashes on our heads.

How long will this player continue at Sporting? Many never make the first team and less go onto being first team regulars. I really hope you are right about Dias because it would be sweet to having a true first team player there, but it feels like his future lies elsewhere and we have already seen the hints. Being patient is one thing, but if you're too patient you will be 24 years old playing for the B side in the 3rd division of Portugal, not the level of player required for the Canadian National team. If Dias is 24 playing regularly for Aberdeen let's say then it's far more likely he's able to contribute, especially if he is a star there, which I would expect with all of that tactical and technical education he would have gotten.

[Unnamed Trialist]

45 minutes ago, Obinna said:

This is reassuring but we are talking Barcelona not Villarreal. If we were taking about this player leaving Vancouver now and going to Barca U-19 I would perhaps be a little more receptive. Also, for every Busquets or Alba there are players who slip out of that environment into relative obscurity. Furthermore, how about some examples of players already playing pro, then going to a youth team at Villarreal, then working their way through that system all the way to the first team? How many North Americans have done it successfully? I think people's apprehension about it makes sense until we see more examples. Willing to change my mind in light of some success stories.

Villarreal has the highest level B team in the world, fyi. The only B team in a top second division. The only B team of any club in a top nation to play at that level.

No B team player anywhere faces tougher competition than Villareal B roster players.

I just picked that club because his dad's club has some deal with them, but if folks are going to comment on them they should inform themselves a bit better.

Edit to be clear. For me any Serie A Primavera or club in Germany or England top flight with a u-19 academy is better for a teenage player than minutes in CPL. Somehow people think by surrounding him with an environment that doesn't challenge him at his age is better than the disappointment of him going to a great club and not making it.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Bigandy]

13 hours ago, Shway said:

Yea, it's child trafficking in the eyes of FIFA. Barca and other big clubs were criminal to this.

The ones who can leave early, have European ancestry. The other option is if your parents move to said country for a job opportunity not related to soccer. 

I was told in germany that alot of german clubs would recruit in african countries. As a general rule of thumb, these kids were athletically superior and challenge the german kids to play smarter and quicker. If the african kids turned pro its a win, if they didn't they would still provide great developmental support for other academy kids. win win. 

Obviously most of the kids dont end up with the first team so alot of these african descent players would have zero financial resources, family support, or language/educational support. After their contract was up, they really struggled in daily life.  

Edited September 22, 2023 by Bigandy

[Obinna]

35 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Villarreal has the highest level B team in the world, fyi. The only B team in a top second division. The only B team of any club in a top nation to play at that level.

No B team player anywhere faces tougher competition than Villareal B roster players.

I just picked that club because his dad's club has some deal with them, but if folks are going to comment on them they should inform themselves a bit better.

I know. That's why I said earlier if he was going to Villarreal B it would be different for me. It would be a definite upgrade. Going to the U-19 would make me nervous he'd get lost in the shuffle. You get lost in the shuffle at Villarreal B and at least you've played in La Liga 2. It's true he could go to U-19 and quickly progress to the B team, but if he's a slow burner like Dias at Sporting would it be worth giving up all that first team football in the CPL? 

I guess it's something we could debate until the cows came home and we'd never know what is the best. Each players path is different and whatever they choose we should hope for the best.

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

He's physically slighter and not an explosive prodigy, I watched a few games two years ago in Youth League. He also plays a hard position to fit into a first team, creative or attacking mid.

But no, very Canadian don't you think? Discriminate against size and ignore skill. So if Sporting privileges skill and is patient about size as he grows and strengthens, time for Canada fans to wear sackcloth and toss ashes on our heads.

I think you're giving way too much credit to fans for considering his profile in terms of how they rate him- I doubt most people have watched him play let alone evaluated him. I think it really comes down to the fact that we've been hearing about him for over 2 years now and he's still in the same academy. That's not a knock on him- most of our prospects are either wunderkinds who get promoted very quickly or they flame out and go to another team by this age.

 

Like I said, he makes that move to another team, and he's immediately back into discussions on bringing him in to the national team. He was linked to Aberdeen; I mean, starts for Ross County made half the fanbase demand Loturi get called up and everyone was shocked when he didn't get minutes, so if he's Aberdeen quality, he's gonna be a player people want to bring in the team. I think people just expect club movement. Minor details like his skills and talent are secondary.

[Obinna]

14 hours ago, Obinna said:

It's cool to hear there's a relationship with Villarreal, but he's already playing first team soccer. Would going from that to the U-19s of Villarreal really be the right move?

Reminds me of Pepple playing first team minutes for Cavalry, then going to Getafe and playing for their youth team, only to come back to Cavalry. I tend to view the whole going to Europe and trialing with youth teams a waste of time, but maybe others credit that experience for helping him come back a better player? I mean, he did get a transfer to Luton at the end of the day.

Curious to hear what people think and if they view TJ playing youth ball with Villarreal like the Pepple/Getafe situation? And if so would that be good for him? I feel like if he's leaving a first team environment in the CPL it should be to Villarreal B at least.

@Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

28 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I know. That's why I said earlier if he was going to Villarreal B it would be different for me. It would be a definite upgrade. Going to the U-19 would make me nervous he'd get lost in the shuffle. You get lost in the shuffle at Villarreal B and at least you've played in La Liga 2. It's true he could go to U-19 and quickly progress to the B team, but if he's a slow burner like Dias at Sporting would it be worth giving up all that first team football in the CPL? 

I guess it's something we could debate until the cows came home and we'd never know what is the best. Each players path is different and whatever they choose we should hope for the best.

U-19 in Spain is killer good, especially the top division. But my son played the Spanish third tier aged 18 (multiple divisions of course) and I think that team could have handled pretty well any club team in Canada except the mls teams. Not really pro prospects, but solid.  It was a level good enough for NCAA Division 1 recruitment.

So even lower level u-19 is solid. Plenty of good kids go from u-19 to first team. Koleosho had rather few B team appearances and basically debuted in la Liga out of u-19.

I guess I'm sold on a good coach, promotion- relegation, a powerful club so you see the benchmark, surrounded by really good kids you do not stand head and tails above. 

But noone goes from CPL to a top second division. They go to fifth tier in England at best. I think those Atletico Ottawa players who returned went to the old third tier with regional divisions or to fourth tier.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

18 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

U-19 in Spain is killer good, especially the top division. But my son played the Spanish third tier aged 18 (multiple divisions of course) and I think that team could have handled pretty well any club team in Canada except the mls teams. Not really pro prospects, but solid.  It was a level good enough for NCAA Division 1 recruitment.

So even lower level u-19 is solid. Plenty of good kids go from u-19 to first team. Koleosho had rather few B team appearances and basically debuted in la Liga out of u-19.

I guess I'm sold on a good coach, promotion- relegation, a powerful club so you see the benchmark, surrounded by really good kids you do not stand head and tails above. 

But noone goes from CPL to a top second division. They go to fifth tier in England at best. I think those Atletico Ottawa players who returned went to the old third tier with regional divisions or to fourth tier.

That's true. Koleosho is a good case study actually. He's obviously a good player and his EPL minutes at Burnley are a testament to the Spanish development you are speaking to. He doesn't have many first team minutes for a 19 year old, but does it matter? He's doing great so far and will narrow the experience gap on his peers quickly at this rate.

[An Observer]

11 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Lucas has not been released by Sporting. He is on their rosters and they are still developing him. He still gets minutes. 

Really, guys, do you not have any idea how it works? Sure, there are kids who get early call-ups. Then there are kids who get them later. The vast majority of B and reserve team players on the rosters of the greatest most powerful clubs in the world have not seen first team minutes. But instead of thinking these guys are on track and in the most privileged position a young player can be in, it's all handwringing and furrowed brows about first team minutes. 

My view is that this attitude shows an incorrect understanding of player development. As long as you are on the development roster, they value you. Otherwise they'd let you go in a flash.

I was looking at Busquets a while ago, his debut was at almost 21 years old with the first team. Looking at others: Puyol was 21, Alba had his pro debut age 20, the list goes on. We are talking about elite players. You hang in and fight for what you want as long as you can, and if it does not work out, you are in your early 20s and are ready for a pro career elsewhere. 

It’s not an incorrect understanding of player development.  Sure, some players develop faster than others for various reasons, some of which you mention.  The point is that he hasn’t developed at the rate many were expecting and has slipped down the development curve relative to his peers where he was 2 years ago.  He is currently going backwards by effectively standing still.  You are correct that the fact he is still in their system means they still seem something in him works in his favour for sure.  But as someone who doesn’t have an idea of how it works, it is my observation that players between 17 and 20 often stall out and others like Kone come from no where to take a first team place.  He seems more likely to be in the former than the latter at this stage and he is coming to the end of that period. 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 hours ago, An Observer said:

It’s not an incorrect understanding of player development.  Sure, some players develop faster than others for various reasons, some of which you mention.  The point is that he hasn’t developed at the rate many were expecting and has slipped down the development curve relative to his peers where he was 2 years ago.  He is currently going backwards by effectively standing still.  You are correct that the fact he is still in their system means they still seem something in him works in his favour for sure.  But as someone who doesn’t have an idea of how it works, it is my observation that players between 17 and 20 often stall out and others like Kone come from no where to take a first team place.  He seems more likely to be in the former than the latter at this stage and he is coming to the end of that period. 

 

..."at the rate many were expecting."

Apart from that not being a point at all, it's an incorrect understanding of player development.

I've never in my life heard a coach or technical staff say that about a young player. There is no special expectation, just the maximum effort to give those 50-70 young adult players all they need to succeed. You bet on them all, the fact you signed them means none of them are favourites or long shots. You never know anything about who will make that big step up, you just maximize their possibilities and give them chances when you can.

Or loan then out because you realize they need more minutes than you can give. Or cut them loose, because otherwise you're wasting a roster spot. For Sporting, they're not wasting a roster spot on Lucas, they haven't found a single attacking mid to replace him or the other 4-5 like him they have.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[An Observer]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

..."at the rate many were expecting."

Apart from that not being a point at all, it's an incorrect understanding of player development.

I've never in my life heard a coach or technical staff say that about a young player. There is no specual expectation, just the maximum effort to give those 50-70 young adult players all the need to succeed. You bet on them all, the fact you signed them means none of them are favourites or long shots. You never know anything about who will make that big step up, you just maximize their possibilities and give them chances when you can.

Or loan then out because you realize they need more minutes than you can give. Or cut them loose, because otherwise you're wasting a roster spot. For Sporting, they're not wasting a roster spot on Lucas, they haven't found a single attacking mid to replace him or the other 4-5 like him they have.

Aye Karumba. Don’t even know where to start with you so won’t bother.  You’re like a child in a 60 year olds body. 

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

..."at the rate many were expecting."

Apart from that not being a point at all, it's an incorrect understanding of player development.

I've never in my life heard a coach or technical staff say that about a young player. There is no specual expectation, just the maximum effort to give those 50-70 young adult players all the need to succeed. You bet on them all, the fact you signed them means none of them are favourites or long shots. You never know anything about who will make that big step up, you just maximize their possibilities and give them chances when you can.

Or loan then out because you realize they need more minutes than you can give. Or cut them loose, because otherwise you're wasting a roster spot. For Sporting, they're not wasting a roster spot on Lucas, they haven't found a single attacking mid to replace him or the other 4-5 like him they have.

And this just really speaks to the point. They have 4-5 just like him so obviously he isn't special, you basically said so yourself. I think everything you are saying about Sporting wanting them all to succeed is true, otherwise they would cut them loose if they no longer believes something was there. All of this I believe to be true, but it doesn't negate the point he's stalled out right now. As long as he's there it's possible things unexpectedly shift and he finds himself playing for the first team, but the odds of that happening are slim. Not impossible and I hope he does play for the first team, but why should I be optimistic when there are 4-5 just like him, as you say?

And you also say players eventually get loaned out because they need minutes, which obviously means that playing first team ball matters and is important. To bring it back to TJ, you have a player playing first team minutes right now and you want him to go backwards and play youth ball. It's a backwards step and yet a forward step from a tactical and technical education and if it does happen I hope he has more luck progressing to first team football than Dias has had.

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, Obinna said:

And this just really speaks to the point. They have 4-5 just like him so obviously he isn't special, you basically said so yourself. I think everything you are saying about Sporting wanting them all to succeed is true, otherwise they would cut them loose if they no longer believes something was there. All of this I believe to be true, but it doesn't negate the point he's stalled out right now. As long as he's there it's possible things unexpectedly shift and he finds himself playing for the first team, but the odds of that happening are slim. Not impossible and I hope he does play for the first team, but why should I be optimistic when there are 4-5 just like him, as you say?

And you also say players eventually get loaned out because they need minutes, which obviously means that playing first team ball matters and is important. To bring it back to TJ, you have a player playing first team minutes right now and you want him to go backwards and play youth ball. It's a backwards step and yet a forward step from a tactical and technical education and if it does happen I hope he has more luck progressing to first team football than Dias has had.

We disagree on the idea of development, then.

[Unnamed Trialist]

12 hours ago, An Observer said:

Aye Karumba. Don’t even know where to start with you so won’t bother.  You’re like a child in a 60 year olds body. 

May be, but I'm not the Canada fan making a monumental effort to diss a guy who's worn our shirt, you are. 

Most men have a lot of boy and teen as a deep hard core, it's no shame.

[Borjans Sweatpants]

Nice article / interview with TJ.

https://northerntribune.ca/vancovuer-fc-tj-tahid-world-cup-interview/

[InglewoodJack]

Transfermarkt has been posting daily interviews with a new U17 player each day this month, including with Bayern’s Irakunda and Rosenborg’s Nypan, and today’s is with TJ Tahid:

https://www.transfermarkt.us/tj-tahid-meet-the-vancouver-fc-wonderkid-who-models-his-game-after-alexis-sanchez/view/news/431499?fbclid=PAAaYTfy_6jYF_wbRTA-4pzEcJIEL-OnYKQau0AKifFG2YetNu_6njeLMYqY4_aem_AXdNLH5LAcS5LbOTaq6koZ1Y3f9j1xbv64E3wdsBwGMbGco2b9QfcJ2ibIw-PegcRnE