Niko Sigur

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

 Zadro obviously saw something in Niko to recommend him to a team like Hajduk. Which seems to come back to scouting/evaluation in Canada? I get it's impossible to spot every player that goes on to develop well in other countries but hopefully the CPL serves as another filter for young talent in Canada

I feel very confused. A former amateur player played pick up with sigur and saw enough talent and has the connections to send him to Hajduk? Thats a tough sell. 

"Lets listen to some guy whos never played pro about a kid he saw in the park in Canada." I think its far more likely that sigur came to europe by other means than zadro...... 

[CanadaFan123]

1 hour ago, to70 said:

It's interesting to hear how he actually got discovered by Hajduk . Was talking to a customer who usedto play OSL soccer and asked him if he still played. He said that he just plays pick-up soccer with a bunch of guys. turns that Niko played with them in Mississauga and one in the group was Tomislav Zadro who played for the Wisconsin Badgers and was a high MLS prospect, but was seriously injured in his last year there. He is the one that recommended Niko to Hajduk. Radomlje, the team in Slovenia is Hajduk's farm team.

That’s not what happened exactly but close enough. My understanding is that my contact is the one who recommended him to Hajduk via referral from Zadro. 

[Kadenge]

10 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I feel very confused. A former amateur player played pick up with sigur and saw enough talent and has the connections to send him to Hajduk? Thats a tough sell. 

"Lets listen to some guy whos never played pro about a kid he saw in the park in Canada." I think its far more likely that sigur came to europe by other means than zadro...... 

possibly, but even if you don't buy the Zadro angle,  Hajduk obviously saw something in Niko, so regardless of how he got to Europe he ended up at Hajduk because of his ability

[costarg]

4 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

I don't disagree with your overall point in that we need a sturdier pyramid and more competitive teams to catch players and develop them, but based on everything we know about this kid this is just an anomaly. You're not supposed to go from York U to the Croatian U21 team within a year. By all accounts, this was a kid who wasn't good enough, then took advantage of an opportunity, that opened up an opportunity at Split, an injury put him in the starting lineup, he took advantage of that opportunity, then got called up to their national team, took advantage of that opp too and kept moving along. This type of thing would happen even if we had a fully developed soccer pyramid. On the other hand, a player like Stefan Mitrovic who got passed up by all CPL teams and wasn't rated by TFC academy is a player we should not have whiffed on. That's a failure of our talent scouting.

Given our population and pool, I feel the pyramid and structure is in place.  The real issue is the coaches, and scouting talent.  It just isn't up to par.  Even our 3 major academies are amateurish at best.  They do not have the talent or experience to scout players properly.  We'll keep seeing this until that changes, and it will take a while.

[Corazon]

I know some Canadian's in the soccer world that have been talking about this kid for a few years now.  Obviously not big time players in the Canada soccer world though.

[Bison44]

It seems funny that when he was playing at York U, no one at Forge or Y9 signed him.  Or maybe it was all his plan, 1 year of Usports then europe.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, costarg said:

Given our population and pool, I feel the pyramid and structure is in place.  The real issue is the coaches, and scouting talent.  It just isn't up to par.  Even our 3 major academies are amateurish at best.  They do not have the talent or experience to scout players properly.  We'll keep seeing this until that changes, and it will take a while.

You can't scout players if there isn't a fully competitive youth structure. Or if it's totally imbalanced and a good player is lost on a poor team. And then coaching, because if you play physical and direct you'll never value a creative mid with pause and vision.

And then scouting.

[InglewoodJack]

12 hours ago, costarg said:

Given our population and pool, I feel the pyramid and structure is in place.  The real issue is the coaches, and scouting talent.  It just isn't up to par.  Even our 3 major academies are amateurish at best.  They do not have the talent or experience to scout players properly.  We'll keep seeing this until that changes, and it will take a while.

I don't disagree with our lack of scouting talent, coaching, and the rest of the infrastructure needed to fully develop our country's soccer talent, but we have a single professional league in our country with 8 teams, 3 additional MLS teams and a semi pro league that doesn't even span coast to coast. Beyond that, only a select few League 1 teams are even elite enough to produce players that have pro potential. The CPL eventually growing, if that ever happens, and League 1 growing across more provinces will help, but I just think players need more opportunities to play competitive soccer at a high level and work up the ladder.

As for the 3 MLS academies, is that actually true though? I asked that earlier in the thread, but I'm not sure we're that far behind typical MLS academies in terms of talent development. Taking MLS in particular, if Saliba makes his way to Europe, Sirois becomes a reliable MLS keeper, Rea becomes a good MLS depth piece, and you already have Kone in England, all that talent over a 3 year period or so is a very good output for a single team. If a couple of TFC's young players pan out, and a few look like they're on their way, that's another good haul. I just don't know how much more talent coming through these teams is realistic to hope for in the near future. That's why we need more teams and a more fleshed out pyramid, because it's never going to be the top academies that produce your entire national team. That doesn't even happen in the premier league.

Edited September 14, 2023 by InglewoodJack

[Bigandy]

15 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

That’s not what happened exactly but close enough. My understanding is that my contact is the one who recommended him to Hajduk via referral from Zadro. 

Ah that makes more sense. Zadro to hajduk seems like a big step. Zadro to contact to hajduk seems more realistic. 

[to70]

Scouting and talent recognition has always been a problem here. There's always been too much "old boys network" in the past al least in hiring for "technical" positions at the provincial  and district levels. I'm not sure if he is still at the OSA, but there was someone at one of these people at OSA who IMO couldn't even kick the ball properly when he played. A friend of mine whose son was on the same provincial team as Steven Vittoria told me that Vittoria was dropped from the provincial team and it's probably why he chose Portugal at first. And we all remember that Owen Hargreaves wasn't goog enough for the provincial team. I remember when I coached youth soccer I had a player scouted and  by a Hungarian team academy. Not sure how they they found, but they did. His career didn't pan out, but he still had experience.

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, to70 said:

Scouting and talent recognition has always been a problem here. There's always been too much "old boys network" in the past al least in hiring for "technical" positions at the provincial  and district levels. I'm not sure if he is still at the OSA, but there was someone at one of these people at OSA who IMO couldn't even kick the ball properly when he played. A friend of mine whose son was on the same provincial team as Steven Vittoria told me that Vittoria was dropped from the provincial team and it's probably why he chose Portugal at first. And we all remember that Owen Hargreaves wasn't goog enough for the provincial team. I remember when I coached youth soccer I had a player scouted and  by a Hungarian team academy. Not sure how they they found, but they did. His career didn't pan out, but he still had experience.

I believe the man to cut hargreaves from team alberta was named Pat and he was still at ASA around 2010. 

[costarg]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You can't scout players if there isn't a fully competitive youth structure. Or if it's totally imbalanced and a good player is lost on a poor team. And then coaching, because if you play physical and direct you'll never value a creative mid with pause and vision.

And then scouting.

Catch-22.  We can't have a fully competitive youth structure without decent coaches.  Both have to grow simultaneously.  Right now, we have more talent and capable young players and not enough knowledgable coaches to develop them properly.

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 minutes ago, costarg said:

Catch-22.  We can't have a fully competitive youth structure without decent coaches.  Both have to grow simultaneously.  Right now, we have more talent and capable young players and not enough knowledgable coaches to develop them properly.

I don't agree. Plenty of places, if not most places in the world have promotion and relegation across the board for kids, starting u-8. So you can see some of the good players come to the fore.

But the coaching and club philosophies and overarching idea of the game are not that great. 

So yes, you can start with the fully competitive structure. If you have that, and a team purporting to be good with good coaches is losing consistently, they'll react, eventually. Or just decide to be a low level and mostly uncompetitive club where the kids with less talent with end up.

[Footyeh]

19 hours ago, costarg said:

Given our population and pool, I feel the pyramid and structure is in place.  The real issue is the coaches, and scouting talent.  It just isn't up to par.  Even our 3 major academies are amateurish at best.  They do not have the talent or experience to scout players properly.  We'll keep seeing this until that changes, and it will take a while.

Agree, but I would say we also need A LOT more academies at the bottom of the structure playing at the highest youth levels.  If we have even 2-3 more teams competing in the MLS Next (similar to non MLS academies in the States), our player pool would grow instantly and less players would fall through the cracks.

TFC has been ok over the years at getting the best players, Whitecaps used to be good when the Residency was run by foreigners.  But all 3 consistently fail to attract/recognize top talents, and even worse, they waste the ones they have.  And then people come on this forum and say player "x" isn't good because our club said he's not and we all just blindly agree!😅

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, Footyeh said:

... TFC has been ok over the years at getting the best players, Whitecaps used to be good when the Residency was run by foreigners.  But all 3 consistently fail to attract/recognize top talents, ...

Mitrovic and Sigur were both in the MLS academy systems at one point so the question is maybe why they were not identified as top talents to be signed ASAP to pro contracts in that context and why CanPL clubs were not interested thereafter.

[Obinna]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Mitrovic and Sigur were both in the MLS academy systems at one point so the question is maybe why they were not identified as top talents to be signed ASAP to pro contracts in that context and why CanPL clubs were not interested thereafter.

I have never been a part of any MLS academy or any academy in general, but I imagine that player identification is not as straight forward as we make it seem.

It's so easy to say "how the hell did they miss out on a future Serbian international and a potential future Croatian international", but I think the reality was neither stood out in an obvious way at the time - otherwise it would have been picked up on.

My view on these top youth levels is that most players are potential gems that can be exposed in the right conditions. For both of these guys maybe the right conditions were simply found overseas. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

Even if Mitrovic got picked up by a CPL team he may not have turned into the player he is today. Ditto Sigur. For them maybe it was going to Europe that brought the best out of them. Others go to Europe and flame out. Just the way it is.

[Obinna]

^And I would add that once you are good enough to play at a professional academy you have demonstrated a base-level of skill where you now become one of many potential gems. It's a different level than playing competitive youth club soccer, where your ceiling may be playing in U-Sports or NCAA - but your floor is being that guy who is "too-good-for-rec-league".

To participate in a professional academy you already have the base-level to be a professional, but not everyone does. Many who don't can go to university and earn a spot without much trouble, because of that high floor they have. 

Anyways, whether a player turns into a gem and reaches their ceiling and becomes a solid pro, or hits their floor and becomes one of many college players out there, or simply plays top amateur soccer for fun, it's really the players duty to reach their ceiling, isn't it?

Good for Mitrovic and Sigur for betting on themselves and going into another environmentand realizing their dreams. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:37 PM, Obinna said:

...Good for Mitrovic and Sigur for betting on themselves and going into another environmentand realizing their dreams. 

Bottom line though is that the CMNT is missing out to Serbia and Croatia on players that might have been a significant factor in 2026 and who don't appear to have even been on the radar where national youth teams were concerned. TFC may have had a player in their academy system a few years back who could have been the answer in midfield this season on how to link up with the two Italians properly.

That should prompt some serious introspection and reevaluation of methods and hopefully that is happening behind the scenes. Too much emphasis on athleticism over technique in an MLS and CMNT youth level context? That has been a criticism that has been made in the past about the way soccer is approached in North America. How many more prospects who could have made a big difference are being discarded like this? Is this only the tip of the iceberg given some players don't have access to or wouldnt be so willing to pursue a career in their parent's country as plan B?

Maybe next time somebody like Ivan Mitrovic starts kicking up a big fuss on social media the assumption on here should not automatically be that the uppity first generation immigrant needs to shut up and get back to a construction site because the people who run the CSA and three MLS academies must automatically know what they are doing.

[shorty]

I understand the point you are trying to make, OTP, but I'm one who does not feel the CSA knows what they're doing organizationally, AND who also feels the Ivans and Rubens of the world should shut up (minus your construction site comment).

Not because they are immigrants, but because airing out your frustrations and personal beefs in public and divulging information that should be confidential (re: negotiations, etc) is wildly inappropriate.  Stefan (and less so Marcelo) might have been "gets" for us on the field, but their dads would have been huge headaches/liabilities.  

Edited September 17, 2023 by shorty

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Bottom line though is that the CMNT is missing out to Serbia and Croatia on players that might have been a significant factor in 2026 and who don't appear to have even been on the radar where national youth teams were concerned. TFC may have had a player in their academy system a few years back who could have been the answer in midfield this season on how to link up with the two Italians properly.

That should prompt some serious introspection and reevaluation of methods and hopefully that is happening behind the scenes. Too much emphasis on athleticism over technique in an MLS and CMNT youth level context? That has been a criticism that has been made in the past about the way soccer is approached in North America. How many more prospects who could have made a big difference are being discarded like this? Is this only the tip of the iceberg given some players don't have access to or wouldnt be so willing to pursue a career in their parent's country as plan B?

Maybe next time somebody like Ivan Mitrovic starts kicking up a big fuss on social media the assumption on here should not automatically be that the uppity first generation immigrant needs to shut up and get back to a construction site because the people who run the CSA and three MLS academies must automatically know what they are doing.

I have all the time in the world for this complaint in general, but unless you know that was specifically the issue with one of these two players there is really no need to assume that was the problem. I am a big fan of prioritizing technique over physique, but until I hear that was a problem in this specific case I will just assume it was a case of both players blossoming outside of Canada rather than inside of Canada, unfortunately for us.

I'll throw in the caveat that I blame the CSA for not bringing Mitrovic in sooner once he was playing in Serbia.

Wasn't Herdman on record saying he was behind Nelson in the depth chart? From what I recall the one camp we did call him, which he did accept, we ended up canceling because of coronavirus, meanwhile all other countries proceeded with their camps and we were the only ones to cancel. We should have capped him before that but even still we had the chance right there to get him provisionally cap tied and we turned around and did something no other nation did that window, and truth be told it was probably just to save a few bucks because all that testing was very expensive.

Regardless, you can think as you wish, and if you have any info suggesting his size or speed were the problem, I am all ears, but to me he didn't blossom in Canada and when he blossomed in Serbia the CSA were far too slow to react, simple as that.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Obinna

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

56 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I have all the time in the world for this complaint in general, but unless you know that was specifically the issue with one of these two players there is really no need to assume that was the problem...

How can I be making an assumption when there's a question mark at the end of the sentence you have bolded? I was providing an example of the sort of question that should be looked at internally by the various Canadian entities (i.e. CSA, TFC, Whitecaps, and to a lesser extent Forge and York United) who had or should have had Mitrovic and/or Sigur on their radar as a future starter but don't appear to have rated either of them as highly as subsequent events suggest they should have.

[Obinna]

22 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

How can I be making an assumption when there's a question mark at the end of the sentence you have bolded? I was providing an example of the sort of question that should be looked at internally by the various Canadian entities (i.e. CSA, TFC, Whitecaps, and to a lesser extent Forge and York United) who had or should have had Mitrovic and/or Sigur on their radar as a future starter but don't appear to have rated either of them as highly as subsequent events suggest they should have.

You're right, I shouldn't have assumed you are assuming and you just simply asked the question.

Don't get me wrong, when we lose a player like Mitrovic I am certainly for us asking questions of how this happened and even doing an internal review at the CSA and/or the clubs involved. There's no downside to doing that. 

For me the bigger issue was that we could have called him but didn't once he actually got to Serbia and started playing for RAD. We could have called him into our Olympic team, but didn't. Then it took us a few windows to call him into our senior team, then by the time we did we turned around and cancelled the camp. So, it was all in our power to make him a Canadian player and none of it had to do with prioritizing players with physique over players with technique.

The fact we never called him (or Sigur) into a youth camp prior to them going abroad doesn't really bother me, because like I said before nobody can predict with 100% accuracy which players will turn into gems and reach their ceilings and which will never progress beyond their floor.

We should always strive to get better, but the fact that Mitrovic was never selected for our youth national teams as a 15/16/17 year old AND wasn't picked up by a CPL team suggests to me that he wasn't standing out at that time - plain and simple. That's not to say he wasn't a very good player. FFS to even get to the final round of those CPL open tryouts you had to be a good player, and he did that, but there are a lot of good players in Canada. Sometimes you have to go elsewhere to find your opportunity and he did that. Does that mean our system is broken? No. Would we benefit from having more opportunities to stay in the game domestically? Of course. The League 1 Canada system is trying to fill those gaps and so far so good. 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Obinna

[nolando]

Niko starting at holding mid today vs HNK Gorica. Seems to be settling into that position for Hajduk.

[Ruffian]

There will always be quality player who leave our best academies. We just need more academies that young players and their parents see as a quality place to develop. If they left Toronto FC academy for whatever reason maybe they saw club academies in their parent's home countries as more convenient to join than moving to Montreal or Vancouver. If York or Forge had academies where they thought they could get decent opportunities than maybe they would have chosen one of them and stayed in Canada.

[nolando]

Another matchday, another start in MF...