Niko Sigur

[red card]

1 hour ago, top cheese said:

Quick comment.

There are around 3m soccer players in Canada. Im not sure off the top of my head the breakdown of how many male youth players there are. But the talent pathway in Canada essentially starts and ends with the Canadian team's MLS academies. There is also a dominance of Ontario, BC, Quebeac born players with the National Teams. Problem with the MLS academies is that they dont have the money to support billetted players unless you are a Davies level player so most of the MLS academies are made up of players who live close to the academy centers. Basically excluding most of the country. On the flip side with only three academies and the variability in youth aged talent development. Your in all likelyhood missing alot of extremely talented players who could play in Europe. 

 

Recent surveys say 1 million aged 3-17 play organized soccer in Canada. As of last year, only 576k actually played with registered Canada Soccer/provincial associations youth clubs. 

Peak for youth registrations was 2008 and then dropped by 20% by 2019. Covid steepeded the drop off but 2022 numbers say we're 97.4% back to 2019 numbers.

Youth males account for 62% of the total, an increase from 56% share in 2008. 89% of the youth male players are in 4 provinces with 37% in Ontario. Combined with not enough coaching expertise everywhere and only 2 CPL clubs, the small number of talented players in the rest of the country have little chance becoming elite.

 

[costarg]

12 minutes ago, red card said:

Combined with not enough coaching expertise everywhere and only 2 CPL clubs, the small number of talented players in the rest of the country have little chance becoming elite.

This.

We keep expressing shock when the Mitrovics', Sigurs' and Farsis slip through undetected, people really underestimate how poor the level of scouting and coaching is in Canada.  Anyone who has played even slightly competitively, reffed or even helped out in organizing tournaments or something would be shocked at the amateurish level. 

[phresh]

6 hours ago, top cheese said:

But the talent pathway in Canada essentially starts and ends with the Canadian team's MLS academies.

No, it doesn't. We have more players developed by L1C academies than MLS.

[Aird25]

3 hours ago, costarg said:

This.

We keep expressing shock when the Mitrovics', Sigurs' and Farsis slip through undetected, people really underestimate how poor the level of scouting and coaching is in Canada.  Anyone who has played even slightly competitively, reffed or even helped out in organizing tournaments or something would be shocked at the amateurish level. 

Undetected? Didn’t they all spend time with at least one of the few professional clubs we have in Canada?

[toontownman]

4 hours ago, costarg said:

This.

We keep expressing shock when the Mitrovics', Sigurs' and Farsis slip through undetected, people really underestimate how poor the level of scouting and coaching is in Canada.  Anyone who has played even slightly competitively, reffed or even helped out in organizing tournaments or something would be shocked at the amateurish level. 

It's not so much the scouting as the lack of opportunities to integrate through youth camps and matches. Also the relationship building and staying in touch with these players and making them feel wanted. Maybe the latter happens somewhat? I have no idea. Just seems unlikely.

[Footyeh]

3 hours ago, toontownman said:

It's not so much the scouting as the lack of opportunities to integrate through youth camps and matches. Also the relationship building and staying in touch with these players and making them feel wanted. Maybe the latter happens somewhat? I have no idea. Just seems unlikely.

Youth camps are certainly a factor, but these kids don't have a chance to even be in that conversation if the clubs don't do their jobs.  Mitrovic and Sigur were both rejected by pro teams in their respective markets and ended up in Europe in better teams.  MLS and CPL.  We absolutely have a scouting problem, from the National Team, to the MLS clubs and now the CPL clubs.  For me in my experience in the youth game, far too many bang average coaches and people in power that aren't open to change.  I feel if you don't have some reference for the highest levels in your club/staff, I don't think you can scout/recruit/develop the players we aspire to have.  I remember when Whitecaps Residency had the Academy Director from Germany and then from Holland, the level of the academy was extremely high and results showed.  Since then, it's progressively become much more local coaches and the quality has drastically decreased.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Footyeh

[costarg]

11 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Undetected? Didn’t they all spend time with at least one of the few professional clubs we have in Canada?

Yes, and at least two of the names mentioned above were deemed not good enough by our professional clubs. 

I can tell you what I've heard about the CFM academy.... parents need to sign them up, just like summer camp.  They go to this "camp" and go through drills, practice, etc... it's all very much like a summer camp, although there are "scouts" which are watching and looking for "talent" in the hundreds of kids. 

From what I've heard, CFM makes a lot of money through these camps.  I know wealthy parents who have sent their kids there repeatedly week after week for years, so you have a "pay to play model" and I also know parents that pulled their kids after one week due to the cost. So what happens if a kid shows a lot of promise, but doesn't have the means?  Do we just hope he gets spotted that one week?  These are the kids we're trying to find and develop.  I assume this is similar to Kone, CFM knew about him, but perhaps he wasn't willing to pay the fortune required so he kept playing in St-Laurent and CFM kept tabs on him?  Now consider where Kone is playing today 1 year after CFM actually signed him.  Obviously his talent stood out, but how about the kid who's ceiling is MLS or who would max out at Championship level, are we even spotting that potential?

As for these "scouts" these are guys with pretty much the same background as me, some are friends, played competitively from 5-16, reffed, coached and who stayed involved in soccer through our local contacts (i chose the school/job route).  They're just happy to still be involved in soccer, they are by no means experts in the field and won't be getting job offers in Europe and they know that.

All that to say, we are no where near the level we should be to spot and develop the local talent.  Lots of guys are slipping through the cracks, some will be lucky if they have the means to go to Europe, but way more will just get a job.

[Obinna]

21 hours ago, costarg said:

This.

We keep expressing shock when the Mitrovics', Sigurs' and Farsis slip through undetected, people really underestimate how poor the level of scouting and coaching is in Canada.  Anyone who has played even slightly competitively, reffed or even helped out in organizing tournaments or something would be shocked at the amateurish level. 

There is basically no scouting unless you play in a national tournament, at least when I played. I once had Stephen Hart scout a game I played in, but it was just because we happened to travel to Nova Scotia and play the Nova Scotian provincial team, so it was convenient. 

Part of the problem may be our geography. None of those players you mentioned would have been afflicted by geography, since each of them ironically represent our 3 main metro areas, but where would a player like Schaffleburg be had he not left to play at a prep high school in New England? Once he was down there it was easy enough to get noticed playing in PDL/USL2 (correct me if I have mistaken the exact level), but that brings me to another issue - the lack of infrastructure. Scouts need games to scout players.

Not going to comment on whether the scouts themselves are amateur, since I don't know, but it seems to me like a weak scouting infrastructure stems from a weak general infrastructure, which goes back to our geography problem.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Obinna

[Shway]

Scouting doesn't exist. It's all referral based or pave your own way and make your own noise.

[InglewoodJack]

18 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Undetected? Didn’t they all spend time with at least one of the few professional clubs we have in Canada?

Yeah, but when you aren’t good enough for one academy there’s nowhere else to go and rebuild your development. We’re never going to get England’s soccer pyramid, but if you look at a player like Harry Kane, he went from his local club to Arsenal, back to his local club, then to Watford, then to Tottenham, where he turned pro. For Sigur, he dropped out of Whitecaps academy, then basically had next to no options and went to U Sports. I think he’s a particular case where he really did want to go abroad, but in an ideal scenario, Pacific FC or Vancouver FC’s academies would’ve been there to give him a spot, he would’ve taken his leap there, and then been right back in MLS by the time he was 18-19.

[Aird25]

37 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Yeah, but when you aren’t good enough for one academy there’s nowhere else to go and rebuild your development. We’re never going to get England’s soccer pyramid, but if you look at a player like Harry Kane, he went from his local club to Arsenal, back to his local club, then to Watford, then to Tottenham, where he turned pro. For Sigur, he dropped out of Whitecaps academy, then basically had next to no options and went to U Sports. I think he’s a particular case where he really did want to go abroad, but in an ideal scenario, Pacific FC or Vancouver FC’s academies would’ve been there to give him a spot, he would’ve taken his leap there, and then been right back in MLS by the time he was 18-19.

I understand what you're saying, but it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me in this case or the other ones highlighted. Even after leaving one of the biggest professional academies in the country, he was on a domestic pathway that other successful players have followed. U-Sports and Vaughn Azzurri aren't exactly dead ends, as evidenced by Waterman, Zator, Kamal Miller Alistair Johnston etc.

Yes, we can always do better. There's so much room for improvement in Canada. We need more professional opportunities, but those aren't going to come because most people even here can't be arsed to show up to their local games. The difference in Canada is the amount of money in the game. We have very little that trickles down.

We have improved since he left, but to me Sigur seems like a player that chose to leave the Canadian system rather than one that the system failed. We can't expect every player to be ready to play a role in our few professional teams as a teenager. Some of them might need to prove themselves in lower divisions. That's why I complain about the CPL U21 rule so much. Many of Canada's current national team players might have been dropped because they weren't quite ready by 21.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Aird25

[shorty]

This discussion has me wondering, given that I could have easily been one of those amateur guys doing “scouting”:  is there any actual training for being a scout, specifically, in Europe or elsewhere? I have no knowledge whatsoever, but what I’m leading toward is wondering when we will see the knock-on effects of more professional soccer in Canada. We’ve already talked about the importance of increasing opportunities for Canadian coaches and refs, but surely scouting could/should be included in that expectation. Only so many dollars to go around at the moment, though, obviously. 

[shorty]

27 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Many of Canada's current national team players might have been dropped because they weren't quite ready by 21.

The flip side to this, though, is that the U21 rule is giving an opportunity to a lot of players like Sean Young who, if they are good enough, will stick around beyond 21. If their ceiling is higher they will move on, and if not they will have a cup of coffee in the CPL and get to say they gave it a go. Without that rule Sean Young is probably studying at UVic, working at Thrifty’s, and playing for Bays United’s men’s team — a path which I’m sure sounds familiar to many here. 

[Aird25]

41 minutes ago, shorty said:

The flip side to this, though, is that the U21 rule is giving an opportunity to a lot of players like Sean Young who, if they are good enough, will stick around beyond 21. If their ceiling is higher they will move on, and if not they will have a cup of coffee in the CPL and get to say they gave it a go. Without that rule Sean Young is probably studying at UVic, working at Thrifty’s, and playing for Bays United’s men’s team — a path which I’m sure sounds familiar to many here. 

Sure, with the added pleasure of pushing a better player that’s older into the same fate. I want my club to give young Canadians a shot, but they should have to earn it. I think there’s a few CPL teams that are desperate enough for local talent that someone of Sean Young’s ability would still make it without the rule  

I’d love to see a summary of how successful the careers of CPLs U21 players have been. I can think of a few that aren’t playing professionally any more, and really had no right playing in the league, while Pacific would probably be well and clear this season if we still had Mark Village or Nolan Wirth. Gazdov will probably surpass them both, but does he deserve a starting role this season?

Edited July 17, 2023 by Aird25

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Sure, with the added pleasure of pushing a better player that’s older into the same fate. I want my club to give young Canadians a shot, but they should have to earn it. I think there’s a few CPL teams that are desperate enough for local talent that someone of Sean Young’s ability would still make it without the rule  

I’d love to see a summary of how successful the careers of CPLs U21 players have been. I can think of a few that aren’t playing professionally any more, and really had no right playing in the league, while Pacific would probably be well and clear this season if we still had Mark Village or Nolan Wirth. Gazdov will probably surpass them both, but does he deserve a starting role this season?

You've answered your own question here. If Gazdov is going to surpass both Mark Village and Nolan Wirth, everyone benefits from him getting the minutes that he has this season, as it lifts the overall level in the long-term. The slight hit that Pacific may take in the standings this season is the price of development.

[blueseeka]

Watched a whole bunch of Greek teams today during Europa qualifying. I wasn't focused on the POAK game until the Aris game ended. It wasn't until Sigur got a yellow that i even realized that they were playing against him. Haven't thought about him in a couple months, since it looks doubtful he ever plays for Canada.

I tried watching him for the last 25 minutes or so. Plays as a midfielder just above the CB's. Plays much further back than i envisioned. He is pretty much just an outlet pass for the CB's. He definitely looks sound defensively in both positioning and tracking offensive players. Had almost no touches with the ball in the part of the game i watched. Did have a late poor giveaway.

But he is fine. He definitely didn't wow me though. Not sure what i expected though. He looks very young. I will give a better report in the return match in a week, hopefully watching the whole game.

[InglewoodJack]

He’s gonna get torched by Jayden Nelson next round anyways if they make it through. 

[Jack1997]

Haven’t given up completely on him although it still seems unlikely, I wonder if we call him up with our “A” team he would accept.

[Corazon]

Croatia is one of the best teams in the world.  Sure they have a golden generation right now and may not be as deep as top European countries but their roster is incredibly talented.  And yes they do seem to include a couple domestic players from their top clubs every camp (usually Zagreb players).  But unless he has a monumental rise (which he could given he's only 20 next month), its going to be difficult for him to crack that roster.  My only concern would be a cynical cap tie but I'd hope he would be smarter than players like Mitrovic.

Their current outfield players come from clubs Bayern, Sassuoulo, Rangers, Stuttgart, Union Berlin, Rennes, Man City (2), Madrid, Torino, Tottenham, Atalanta, Hoffenheim, Benfica, Augsburg, Lyon (2), Fiorentina, Frankfurt etc.  Vida plays for AEK Athens & Brozovic now with Al-Nassr but both are proven talents with top European experience.  According to Wikipedia, the only outfield players playing in Croatia that have been called up in the past 12 months are from Zagreb (5) and Split (1).

Yes, Sigur is young with lots of potential but he is far away from being a Croatian regular.  Once he moves to a better team and bigger league, I'll be more concerned.  Of course we do have a disadvantage now that he is in their system.  And I do always worry about a cynical cap tie.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Corazon said:

Croatia is one of the best teams in the world.  Sure they have a golden generation right now and may not be as deep as top European countries but their roster is incredibly talented.  And yes they do seem to include a couple domestic players from their top clubs every camp (usually Zagreb players).  But unless he has a monumental rise (which he could given he's only 20 next month), its going to be difficult for him to crack that roster.  My only concern would be a cynical cap tie but I'd hope he would be smarter than players like Mitrovic.

Their current outfield players come from clubs Bayern, Sassuoulo, Rangers, Stuttgart, Union Berlin, Rennes, Man City (2), Madrid, Torino, Tottenham, Atalanta, Hoffenheim, Benfica, Augsburg, Lyon (2), Fiorentina, Frankfurt etc.  Vida plays for AEK Athens & Brozovic now with Al-Nassr but both are proven talents with top European experience.  According to Wikipedia, the only outfield players playing in Croatia that have been called up in the past 12 months are from Zagreb (5) and Split (1).

Yes, Sigur is young with lots of potential but he is far away from being a Croatian regular.  Once he moves to a better team and bigger league, I'll be more concerned.  Of course we do have a disadvantage now that he is in their system.  And I do always worry about a cynical cap tie.

I'm ok losing duals who go on to have success with other countries, it's specifically the Tomori style 92' cynical shit that gets me riled up.  No one deserves to be that guy, not even Mitrovic.

[Metro]

15 hours ago, blueseeka said:

Watched a whole bunch of Greek teams today during Europa qualifying. I wasn't focused on the POAK game until the Aris game ended. It wasn't until Sigur got a yellow that i even realized that they were playing against him. Haven't thought about him in a couple months, since it looks doubtful he ever plays for Canada.

I tried watching him for the last 25 minutes or so. Plays as a midfielder just above the CB's. Plays much further back than i envisioned. He is pretty much just an outlet pass for the CB's. He definitely looks sound defensively in both positioning and tracking offensive players. Had almost no touches with the ball in the part of the game i watched. Did have a late poor giveaway.

But he is fine. He definitely didn't wow me though. Not sure what i expected though. He looks very young. I will give a better report in the return match in a week, hopefully watching the whole game.

You may have missed the opportunity he had early in the 1st half when his shot from outside the box hit the goal post after a great run down the middle from a turnover.  After that, he was in and out of the play, I agree.  His club seems to trust him with a lot considering his age.

I was wondering why is his name was so familiar to me as I watching the game. 😄 

[InglewoodJack]

11 hours ago, costarg said:

I'm ok losing duals who go on to have success with other countries, it's specifically the Tomori style 92' cynical shit that gets me riled up.  No one deserves to be that guy, not even Mitrovic.

Really? A hater to the core like me prays for the cynical cap. Let’s see Sigur commit to Croatia to play with his idol Luca Modric only for Modric to retire before he plays and Sigur to play a single minute for Croatia and never again. 

[costarg]

6 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Really? A hater to the core like me prays for the cynical cap. Let’s see Sigur commit to Croatia to play with his idol Luca Modric only for Modric to retire before he plays and Sigur to play a single minute for Croatia and never again. 

ur nasty buddy.

[InglewoodJack]

28 minutes ago, costarg said:

ur nasty buddy.

catch me at a Croatia-Canada game where we’re getting washed 6-0 with a very creative chant about how Niko belongs back in U Sports 

[blueseeka]

1 hour ago, Metro said:

You may have missed the opportunity he had early in the 1st half when his shot from outside the box hit the goal post after a great run down the middle from a turnover.  After that, he was in and out of the play, I agree.  His club seems to trust him with a lot considering his age.

I was wondering why is his name was so familiar to me as I watching the game. 😄 

Lol....yeah i definitely missed that. He was very composed out there for what i saw. I was just surprised at how far back he plays. He so young and plays the full 90 minutes for a very good Hajduk team. I honestly had no idea he was playing until I saw his name pop up on Fotmob for the yellow card.

Go PAOK