CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[Soccerpro2]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Very wealthy and he's serious about the club

 

FC Edmonton was carrying years of NASL debt while being stuck in a stadium deal with the city making it impossible to be viable + owners who's commitment to CPL's vision is debatable. York made obvious mistakes in their branding (yes York9 was a bad idea) and how it was ran overall.

The owner cleaned house by firing the president of the club and other senior staff after the 1st season, made new hires, rebranded and started to work on a new stadium for the club. 

Both clubs had drastic responses, hence why I want to see what they do at Woodbine.

How is it possible to have such low attendance 5 years in? What are the specific causes?

[Ansem]

Just now, Soccerpro2 said:

How is it possible to have such low attendance 5 years in? What are the specific causes?

Excluding Covid, year 1 was a terrible launch. The branding was wrong with the club representing the 9 municipalities of York Region while playing in Toronto. So, not a Toronto club (gives no reason for the Toronto media to care) and not playing in the market they want to represent. (I suspect that most York Region citizens wouldn't get the "9" reference either)

Also, the fan experience at the stadium was bad although York Lions was always supposed to be temporary.

I'd say the marketing being nowhere to be found is what hurt the club the most. It's not that people wouldn't be interested in going to see a game, not many knows they actually exist.

[Bison44]

Well this has gone about as per usual.  It goes from, "not a bad crowd" to "why even have a team in York" in 1 page.

[red card]

7 hours ago, Kingston said:

As a summary of a whole bunch of snippets of information, back of the envelope math, and so on, it probably costs about $5 million per year to run a CPL team.  There are certainly people out there who are wealthy enough to absorb that whole cost with no revenue at all, but those sorts of people didn't generally get where they are by running businesses that way.  Even if someone was willing to do that with York, I'd strongly prefer a league with teams that can stand on their own and won't disappear as soon as someone gets tired of their toy.

 

Based on Valour financials released by the Bombers, it cost them $2.5 million to run the team in 2022 and $2.2 million in 2021.

Research done has shown most people own sports team largely because they love the sport and want to support the community before the desire for positive operating income. 

All NFL & NBA teams usually make money but not always the case with the NHL, 1/3 of MLB teams were in the red, only a handful of CFL teams make money, half of CHL teams aren't making money and 70% of MLS don't make money including all 3 Canadian teams. These are long term investments and if valuations are rising enough, negative cash flows are more than tolerable.

In the US, there is also a tax giveaway where a owner can deduct 90% of the cost of buying the team over 15 years. The owner can also use any annual losses to offset gains in other owned businesses. At death, the team is passed on to heirs at the original purchase price which means no tax payable. Then, the heirs can also start deducting the cost of the team over 15 years.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by red card

[Kent]

To keep the 2022 opening weekend vs 2023 opening weekend comparison going.

2022 in Ottawa - 4,172
2023 in Ottawa - 7,039

2022 in Langford - 4,038
2023 in Langford - 4,825

2022 in Toronto (York) - 1,802
2023 in Toronto (York) - 1,607

2022 in Edmonton - 670
2022 in Hamilton - 3,688
2023 in Hamilton - 6,892

Significant increases across the board, except for York which is a small decline.

[Kent]

As for York United's branding and attendance. I don't think we can blame the branding for the bad start. It still makes 0 sense to me how they seemingly founded the club with the idea that they shouldn't be too close to TFC land, so they made a point to have the team be outside of the city, but they needed a temporary home before they built a new stadium outside the city. Then when the team didn't do well where they specifically were trying to avoid, they decide to not build the new stadium and double down on the bad idea location. I really hope the new Vancouver team has better attendance! I'll believe it when I see it with regards to the Woodbine stadium, and I'm not convinced it will be a magic bullet.

And as for the in stadium experience, it seems like it is going downhill a little bit. I was at the home opener. I don't go to a ton of games, but have been to a handful. In the past I remember there being beer carts behind the main stand, in addition to the concession stand. But for the home opener they just had the concession stand to service the fans, and that concession stand had just 1 cashier and 1 other worker. They weren't particularly fast (in most stadiums or bars they will ask multiple people what they want to get things at the same time, for example). Then when you FINALLY get your beer 20 minutes later, it's barely cold.

When I saw how long the line was, I asked someone at guest services if there were places to get beer behind the net where the food trucks are. He didn't know. I found out at half time that there was a sneaky beer stand down there that was a bit faster, despite there only being 1 person working there (not selling food, which the concession booth was).

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

13 hours ago, red card said:

Based on Valour financials released by the Bombers, it cost them $2.5 million to run the team in 2022 and $2.2 million in 2021....

Bear in mind though that a fee was being charged to the Valour for admin costs related to work done by Bombers staff and a net profit was being added to revenues for things like game day revenue streams. Other clubs could have a significantly higher turnover number if the accounts aren't handled that way.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Tigers]

I haven't been to a York game, but I do go to Toronto Arrows games at YLS. I find it pretty enjoyable,  there's a good atmosphere with about 2k people,  but yeah the concessions are pretty bare bones. The Arrows have 3 or 4 additional beer/cider-only stands set up on the main concourse, plus probably 2 in the end zone area, and even those all seem to be busy most of the game.

I've only ever tried to get food from the concessions once, but they didn't even have French fries. So it's either meat pies or Indian/fusion from the food trucks, or last game, Mary Browns in the parking lot lol.

It's just a real shame that cost-wise it makes sense to put the cameras on the same side as everything.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On 4/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, Soccerpro2 said:

Why does the York team exist? Is the owner a super rich soccer fan? Does he have an interest in lighting money on fire every season? ...

They were talking about building a 12,000 seat stadium out in the boonies in York Region by year three or so. Obviously interest cooled on that considerably once it became clear that their core home support was going to be in three figures rather than low five figures. My guess would be that the Baldassarra family's Greenpark Homes construction company viewed a sports stadium as a way to access greenbelt land for a bigger construction project, and that at this point there is some similar angle on a stadium helping to unlock something in real estate terms at Woodbine. They are barely visible on the soccer side of things and Angus McNab looks to me like a league hire to right the ship after season one was a complete fiasco on and off the field.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

19 hours ago, Soccerpro2 said:

How is it possible to have such low attendance 5 years in? What are the specific causes?

I know nothing about the local situation, but from my perspective, it just seems to be a reality of Toronto sports fans that very few seem to be supportive of Canadian initiatives. Drawing 1k from 6 million is absolutely dismal

[BearcatSA]

14 hours ago, red card said:

Based on Valour financials released by the Bombers, it cost them $2.5 million to run the team in 2022 and $2.2 million in 2021.

Research done has shown most people own sports team largely because they love the sport and want to support the community before the desire for positive operating income. 

All NFL & NBA teams usually make money but not always the case with the NHL, 1/3 of MLB teams were in the red, only a handful of CFL teams make money, half of CHL teams aren't making money and 70% of MLS don't make money including all 3 Canadian teams. These are long term investments and if valuations are rising enough, negative cash flows are more than tolerable.

In the US, there is also a tax giveaway where a owner can deduct 90% of the cost of buying the team over 15 years. The owner can also use any annual losses to offset gains in other owned businesses. At death, the team is passed on to heirs at the original purchase price which means no tax payable. Then, the heirs can also start deducting the cost of the team over 15 years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/1323054/2019/10/30/an-inside-look-at-why-billionaires-buy-into-money-losing-major-league-soccer-hint-its-not-really-losing-money/%3famp=1

Though three and a half years old, this article may provide some insight on the financial workings of MLS.

[Cicero]

21 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I know nothing about the local situation, but from my perspective, it just seems to be a reality of Toronto sports fans that very few seem to be supportive of Canadian initiatives. Drawing 1k from 6 million is absolutely dismal

The GTA is pretty balkanized. Many of the large ethic communities are not typically soccer supporting, so to say the potential fanbase is the full 6 million is not realistic. Also, they're not likely going to draw people from distant parts of the GTA like the east end of Scarborough or Oakville. York's drawing area is really Vaughan and Northwest Toronto which is around 500-600k, which is still a pretty good population base. It seems they've just failed to connect with the local fan base. I don't have inside knowledge, but from the outside, it seems they didn't partner with any of the local clubs which are pretty strong and would seem to have been a good starting point. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

They are easy to get to by car and subway so think you are understating their potential catchment area. Toronto rather than York branding might have helped a bit but really why was it going to be any different from the Blizzard and Rockets in the CSL and the Lynx in the A League? I wasn't the only one predicting on here that they would be struggling to draw 1000 fans (talking about what's really happening rather than what is being announced where crowds are concerned). Toronto has a long track record of not showing up for this level of soccer and it's much the same story in other sports as well.

[Rocket Robin]

9 hours ago, Tigers said:

I haven't been to a York game, but I do go to Toronto Arrows games at YLS. I find it pretty enjoyable,  there's a good atmosphere with about 2k people,  but yeah the concessions are pretty bare bones. The Arrows have 3 or 4 additional beer/cider-only stands set up on the main concourse, plus probably 2 in the end zone area, and even those all seem to be busy most of the game.

I've only ever tried to get food from the concessions once, but they didn't even have French fries. So it's either meat pies or Indian/fusion from the food trucks, or last game, Mary Browns in the parking lot lol.

It's just a real shame that cost-wise it makes sense to put the cameras on the same side as everything.  

Toronto FC II also play there (the first year they are actually officially open to the public).  All tickets a reasonable $10.00.  They don't have the stadium's concessions stands open.  They had the food truck "Poutine + More" (that was in the end zone of the CPL game) parked outside the fence at the gates doing good business for the maybe 500 to 600 fans at the game. 

 

 

[Kent]

On 4/17/2023 at 10:02 PM, Kent said:

And as for the in stadium experience, it seems like it is going downhill a little bit. I was at the home opener. I don't go to a ton of games, but have been to a handful. In the past I remember there being beer carts behind the main stand, in addition to the concession stand. But for the home opener they just had the concession stand to service the fans, and that concession stand had just 1 cashier and 1 other worker. They weren't particularly fast (in most stadiums or bars they will ask multiple people what they want to get things at the same time, for example). Then when you FINALLY get your beer 20 minutes later, it's barely cold.

It was much better last night. Partly because there were fewer people at the game last night, but they also had 2 separate lines at the concession last night.

[Aird25]

I’ve complained about services at Starlight, but it sounds much better than York

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Why was Swangard not suitable for CanPL again?

 

[narduch]

10 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Why was Swangard not suitable for CanPL again?

 

Who said it isn't?

[SpursFlu]

I think Swangard would be great for a CPL team. I personally wouldn't support a team there but im sure some people would. It is a great venue but has definet limitations 

[Watchmen]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Why was Swangard not suitable for CanPL again?

 

It's sort of funny that the team went from "we want really represent South of the river" to "we want to represent everywhere" to "fuck it, we're just calling ourselves Vancouver". Within that context, they probably should have just tried for Swangard.

[SpursFlu]

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It's sort of funny that the team went from "we want really represent South of the river" to "we want to represent everywhere" to "fuck it, we're just calling ourselves Vancouver". Within that context, they probably should have just tried for Swangard.

I understand what you're saying but I don't think Ozzie is part of the Vancouver fc decision making process 

Swangard is a nice location and stadium but that's just a bunch of people who also attend Whitecaps games. So your just cannibalizing Caps supporters. If you look at the supporters behind the goal they're just the same faces you'd see in the Southside. Vancouver FC will be for the most part a whole different market.

Probably a lot of families and more young people. Not like 40 yr olds acting young but actual young people... like 16 - 24 yr old knuckheads 

Over 20% of all people under 20 in the province live in Surrey and since Langley is basically the same profile and place you can growvthat number out. the point is there are a lot more young people to connect with in Valley  then in the Vancouver Burnaby Swangard area

Edited April 21, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Goal_Kick]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

I understand what you're saying but I don't think Ozzie is part of the Vancouver fc decision making process 

Swangard is a nice location and stadium but that's just a bunch of people who also attend Whitecaps games. So your just cannibalizing Caps supporters. If you look at the supporters behind the goal they're just the same faces you'd see in the Southside. Vancouver FC will be for the most part a whole different market.

Probably a lot of families and more young people. Not like 40 yr olds acting young but actual young people... like 16 - 24 yr old knuckheads 

Over 20% of all people under 20 in the province live in Surrey and since Langley is basically the same profile and place you can growvthat number out. the point is there are a lot more young people to connect with in Valley  then in the Vancouver Burnaby Swangard area

Any idea why they named the club Vancouver FC?  Why not Mainland FC?  Something inclusive of the outlying regions.

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, Goal_Kick said:

Any idea why they named the club Vancouver FC?  Why not Mainland FC?  Something inclusive of the outlying regions.

I think they just wanted to keep it simple and cast as wide a net as possible 

[jonovision]

Announced attendance from Saturday:

York 822

Hamilton 3827

Valour 3374

 

 

[gator]

The attendance at Forge was not bad considering it was the 3rd home match in a week and the weather was terrible, I am sure crowds will be good as the weather improves!