CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[Aird25]

29 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Honest question:  What would doing it properly look like?  York is York, but Vancouver came in building their own stadium and trying to generate buzz from the beginning as evidenced by their 6000+ initial game crowd.  How much more do you expect a CPL team to do?

A roof

[Kingston]

15 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

A roof

So Vancouver is, to use your words, a "pathetic attempt at a project" because the stadium doesn't have a roof?  If they'd only built a roof they'd be Halifax west selling out their 6500 seat stadium instead of averaging just over 2500 fans per game?  Except maybe even better because Halifax manages to be Halifax without a roof.

I find it more plausible to believe that a) it is hard enough to start a CPL team to begin with and that b) deliberately choosing to put it in a market that already has an MLS team makes it almost impossibly difficult.

 

[Stanley]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

b) deliberately choosing to put it in a market that already has an MLS team makes it almost impossibly difficult.

 

Putting it in Langley and calling it Vancouver is impossibly difficult.

[JamboAl]

I’m going to say that the success in Ottawa and Halifax is because the locations are relatively central and the marketing is very good.  
I don’t know how you save York in the Toronto market - and I am somewhat skeptical whether a Woodbine move would make that much of a difference.  IMO, the current location doesn’t seem all that bad.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

So Vancouver is, to use your words, a "pathetic attempt at a project" because the stadium doesn't have a roof?  If they'd only built a roof they'd be Halifax west selling out their 6500 seat stadium instead of averaging just over 2500 fans per game?  Except maybe even better because Halifax manages to be Halifax without a roof.

I find it more plausible to believe that a) it is hard enough to start a CPL team to begin with and that b) deliberately choosing to put it in a market that already has an MLS team makes it almost impossibly difficult.

 

I think that while the York name adjustment didn't work because the team is too close to Toronto and the stadium is quite poor, Vancouver FC could adjust the name for the better.  Even a Vancouver Valley FC could work. 

Then, with a name change or not, they just need to hammer away at seasons sales, walk up, social media, the communities nearby, kids, improve merchandising. For me if they draw an average of a few hundred more next year that's fine, 400 more a game, fabulous. Then if they get some breaks, win, don't get shit on by refs which has really hurt at home, that'll grow.

[BearcatSA]

4 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Starlight is a great location, and it will continue to improve as the city grows 

I won't be able to attend a Pacific match this year but in my experience I find public transport still a problem in the greater Victoria area, whether coming from the airport or as a ferry foot passenger, and if you are staying in the Victoria city area, you're on a 45 minute bus ride to Langford and then a significant walk from the closest bus stop to the stadium.  That said, at least I could get there before the stadium gates open and hang out at the next door arena resto/pub for some nosh and tv sports and then just hop over to the stadium.

So, I anticipate more food/bevy options within very easy walking distance of Starlight in the future as well as a bit better public transit directly to the stadium.

I have enjoyed my times there.

Edited September 25, 2023 by BearcatSA

[SpursFlu]

We need to have an eye on the future and in many cases the not too distant future. At the LEC for instance there is a plan in place to add probably more than 20k people within walking of the LEC within 5 years. Not in Langley but within walking distance of the LEC. Sounds crazy but true. Forget the general region, whatever you want to call it. I know Langford is in a similar situation. So people need to relax and let foundations get built and watch things play out

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

We need to have an eye on the future and in many cases the not too distant future. At the LEC for instance there is a plan in place to add probably more than 20k people within walking of the LEC within 5 years. Not in Langley but within walking distance of the LEC. Sounds crazy but true. Forget the general region, whatever you want to call it. I know Langford is in a similar situation. So people need to relax and let foundations get built and watch things play out

Long term is key with organic growth in the meantime. By then I could see this happen

1. Rogers finally cut a deal with Onesoccer once they exhausted all their attempts at stalling the CRTC ruling.
2. York rebranding as "Toronto" and moving to Woodbine where ~60k new residence will be in the new casino-entertainment district with the new train station linking Kitchener, Brampton, Pearson Airport, Eglinton subway and downtown with the North York LRT on Finch West. Being from these parts, that location is golden and doubtful the league will pass on the opportunity that the land is already set aside for them.
3. Vancouver : Isn't the Skytrain linking Langley to Vancouver via Surrey coming soon? This will help grow the base over the years. I think this will be similar to Pacific FC, organic growth. As for the weather problems, maybe more home evening games or they add the roof, I recall ownership saying the stadium wasn't completed yet. I'm not worry for this club.

This is key

1. A club in Quebec City might be the best chance the league has to make it on cable before Rogers and Bell with Videotron on TVA Sports who will be looking for content after losing MLS to Apple and RDS. Peladeau being a Quebec City guy would help convince him to air the Quebec City games in French - at the very least, cover the league. On way or another, this would be massive for the league in the province.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

I won't be able to attend a Pacific match this year but in my experience I find public transport still a problem in the greater Victoria area, whether coming from the airport or as a ferry foot passenger, and if you are staying in the Victoria city area, you're on a 45 minute bus ride to Langford and then a significant walk from the closest bus stop to the stadium.  That said, at least I could get there before the stadium gates open and hang out at the next door arena resto/pub for some nosh and tv sports and then just hop over to the stadium.

So, I anticipate more food/bevy options within very easy walking distance of Starlight in the future as well as a bit better public transit directly to the stadium.

I have enjoyed my times there.

Oh absolutely. Public transportation here is a joke. Virtually every flight home I've been on there's been someone absolutely bewildered that they can't seem get to the city from the airport. I've ended up going out of my way to give random people rides downtown on numerous occasions. It's almost as bad from the ferries, or to the West Shore. I've never been anywhere else in the world like that, but surely something has to improve soon

[SpursFlu]

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Long term is key with organic growth in the meantime. By then I could see this happen

1. Rogers finally cut a deal with Onesoccer once they exhausted all their attempts at stalling the CRTC ruling.
2. York rebranding as "Toronto" and moving to Woodbine where ~60k new residence will be in the new casino-entertainment district with the new train station linking Kitchener, Brampton, Pearson Airport, Eglinton subway and downtown with the North York LRT on Finch West. Being from these parts, that location is golden and doubtful the league will pass on the opportunity that the land is already set aside for them.
3. Vancouver : Isn't the Skytrain linking Langley to Vancouver via Surrey coming soon? This will help grow the base over the years. I think this will be similar to Pacific FC, organic growth. As for the weather problems, maybe more home evening games or they add the roof, I recall ownership saying the stadium wasn't completed yet. I'm not worry for this club.

This is key

1. A club in Quebec City might be the best chance the league has to make it on cable before Rogers and Bell with Videotron on TVA Sports who will be looking for content after losing MLS to Apple and RDS. Peladeau being a Quebec City guy would help convince him to air the Quebec City games in French - at the very least, cover the league. On way or another, this would be massive for the league in the province.

It's a skytrain linking Langley to Surrey and vice versa. Nobody in the Valley cares about Vancouver and definitely the other way around. The numbers and the projections are totally off. Trust me  there are enough people out in the Valley. Soon to be way in to the millions. Nobody needs to worry about Vancouver and those people. Public transit in the Valley will improve. The city waits for developers to pay for road widening, sidewalks etc. So you can't add transit till the roads are complete which don't get complete until the developments are complete 

But I like where you're going with all that

Edited September 25, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Kingston]

5 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Long term is key with organic growth in the meantime. 

I think there are two prongs to the league's future success in the stands.

1.  The organic growth you mention to get existing teams to sustainable levels.  It has worked in Hamilton and Ottawa and is trending well in Calgary.  I'd really like to see Winnipeg live up to its potential and Victoria figure out a way to break through.  3000+ is actually pretty good for Victoria based on market size but unfortunately isn't good enough for the CPL long term.

(York is a write off and Vancouver needs more than just slow organic growth.)

2.  A knock-it-out-of-the-park success with the next expansion team.  I agree with you that Quebec City is probably the place to go but, where ever it is, it needs to be a winner in the stands.  Something to help create buzz and, more importantly, something the league can point to for other potential expansion ownership groups.

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Kingston said:

1.  The organic growth you mention to get existing teams to sustainable levels.  It has worked in Hamilton and Ottawa and is trending well in Calgary.  I'd really like to see Winnipeg live up to its potential and Victoria figure out a way to break through.  3000+ is actually pretty good for Victoria based on market size but unfortunately isn't good enough for the CPL long term.

Not all cities are the same, some will take different approaches and/or will take more/less times. We can't be blind to the set of unique barriers faced by the league like a complete blackout from our sports channels with the decline of paper media - some of the few who cover the league from time to time.

 

9 minutes ago, Kingston said:

(York is a write off

Hence the need to rebrand and move to Woodbine

 

10 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Vancouver needs more than just slow organic growth

It's their year 1 - we'll see

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Hence the need to rebrand and move to Woodbine

 

It's their year 1 - we'll see

Whether its Woodbine or a market that isn't shared with an MLS team, York needs something.

As for Vancouver being in year 1, I see that as a problem.  Many teams see a dip after the initial "new team" excitement before they can start building up again.  The fact that they are only averaging ~2700 in year one is disappointing.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Vancouver : Isn't the Skytrain linking Langley to Vancouver via Surrey coming soon? This will help grow the base over the years.

The skytrain is going nowhere near the stadium. I would not factor it in to any considerations for growth.

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

The skytrain is going nowhere near the stadium. I would not factor it in to any considerations for growth.

Are you serious?😆

The station linking Surrey Central to the 203rd street station would within a 6 minutes drive. A frequent bus on that route or a shuttle would be more than enough.

Seems pretty close and the the arrival of the Skytrain will trigger lots of densification within that area which is what I'm hearing already.

If anything, unless they get a sweeter spot in the heart of Surrey, Vancouver FC should stay put and keep focusing on growing their base. They got a great location for the mid to long term

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

Are you serious?😆

The station linking Surrey Central to the 203rd street station would within a 6 minutes drive. A frequent bus on that route or a shuttle would be more than enough.

Seems pretty close and the the arrival of the Skytrain will trigger lots of densification within that area which is what I'm hearing already.

Yes, I'm serious. You're not going to see statistically significant growth from the skytrain being a shuttle or bus away from the LEC. I'm not saying no one will do it, just that the numbers won't move the needle. 

If you want to discuss densification in the area, that's different. It's already happening. Some of it is already complete. I don't know how many people in the surrounding area (ie within walking distance) attend games, but I'd be curious to know.

Edit: The current schedule for the Surrey-Langley extension is to have it running in late 2028, or 5 years from now.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Watchmen

[masster]

23 hours ago, gator said:

Too bad the fans weren't sent home happy but a great crowd:

 

Great crowd for a regular season game. Any reason why it was so much larger than usual? Besides it being the last home game of the season?

[JamboAl]

3 hours ago, masster said:

Great crowd for a regular season game. Any reason why it was so much larger than usual? Besides it being the last home game of the season?

Carl Haworth retiring

last match of the season & playoff race

beautiful afternoon

$5 Bud and Bud Light

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, I'm serious. You're not going to see statistically significant growth from the skytrain being a shuttle or bus away from the LEC. I'm not saying no one will do it, just that the numbers won't move the needle. 

If you want to discuss densification in the area, that's different. It's already happening. Some of it is already complete. I don't know how many people in the surrounding area (ie within walking distance) attend games, but I'd be curious to know.

Edit: The current schedule for the Surrey-Langley extension is to have it running in late 2028, or 5 years from now.

I agree on transit and on changing demographics.

[MtlMario]

19 hours ago, Ansem said:

Long term is key with organic growth in the meantime. By then I could see this happen

1. Rogers finally cut a deal with Onesoccer once they exhausted all their attempts at stalling the CRTC ruling.
2. York rebranding as "Toronto" and moving to Woodbine where ~60k new residence will be in the new casino-entertainment district with the new train station linking Kitchener, Brampton, Pearson Airport, Eglinton subway and downtown with the North York LRT on Finch West. Being from these parts, that location is golden and doubtful the league will pass on the opportunity that the land is already set aside for them.
3. Vancouver : Isn't the Skytrain linking Langley to Vancouver via Surrey coming soon? This will help grow the base over the years. I think this will be similar to Pacific FC, organic growth. As for the weather problems, maybe more home evening games or they add the roof, I recall ownership saying the stadium wasn't completed yet. I'm not worry for this club.

This is key

1. A club in Quebec City might be the best chance the league has to make it on cable before Rogers and Bell with Videotron on TVA Sports who will be looking for content after losing MLS to Apple and RDS. Peladeau being a Quebec City guy would help convince him to air the Quebec City games in French - at the very least, cover the league. On way or another, this would be massive for the league in the province.

Not that it would make a big difference but PKP I believe is from MTL.

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I agree on transit and on changing demographics.

The skytrain would make a big difference only if they built a stadium in downtown Langley. Which would actually not be a bad location. My personal thought with the modular stadium is it gives you 7 or so years to grow the team, the brand and then sell or bring in investors to build a stadium somewhere maybe in the same place, who knows but a stadium in dt Langley, dt Surrey (you could then bring in the existing fan base from Langley) or even Cloverdale fairgrounds to a lesser degree would benefit from the eventual skytrain extension 

Edited September 26, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Kingston]

17 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I don't know how many people in the surrounding area (ie within walking distance) attend games, but I'd be curious to know.

This is the type of information that teams presumably collect but we don't have access to even though it would be extremely interesting.

Obviously it makes sense to locate a stadium in close proximity to a high concentration of people.  So better to be downtown than in an industrial district.

That said, for any city large enough to host a CPL team, there's no way to be in close proximity to everyone.  So equally obviously, the teams are trying to draw fans from across the catchment area. 

For this reason, while densification in a stadium neighbourhood is useful, I'm not sure I'd count on that being what makes a team viable or not.  If teams relied primarily on very close fans, we could put a team in any small city with a population of 50 000 instead of looking for larger centres.

So I suspect the answer to "how many fans come from within walking distance/very close to the stadium" is probably "a noticeable number but decidedly a minority".

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I agree on transit and on changing demographics.

The very small snapshot of the demographic I saw at the LEC seemed to be a lot of parents driving their over-scheduled kids to and from various Saturday activities.  Even if it was a good weather day, I'm not sure how many would fit 2 ½ hours of a CPL match day into that schedule for the afternoon (possibly unless it was a match with playoff ramifications).

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Kingston said:

This is the type of information that teams presumably collect but we don't have access to even though it would be extremely interesting.

Obviously it makes sense to locate a stadium in close proximity to a high concentration of people.  So better to be downtown than in an industrial district.

That said, for any city large enough to host a CPL team, there's no way to be in close proximity to everyone.  So equally obviously, the teams are trying to draw fans from across the catchment area. 

For this reason, while densification in a stadium neighbourhood is useful, I'm not sure I'd count on that being what makes a team viable or not.  If teams relied primarily on very close fans, we could put a team in any small city with a population of 50 000 instead of looking for larger centres.

So I suspect the answer to "how many fans come from within walking distance/very close to the stadium" is probably "a noticeable number but decidedly a minority".

Not really disagreeing with any of this, and to be clear I didn't say densification would make the team viable. I'm just curious as to how many people within walking distance care.  And I think the majority of people in the valley drive (since transit isn't great), which is why I don't think the skytrain matters: people who want to attend already have easy access to the stadium.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

The very small snapshot of the demographic I saw at the LEC seemed to be a lot of parents driving their over-scheduled kids to and from various Saturday activities.  Even if it was a good weather day, I'm not sure how many would fit 2 ½ hours of a CPL match day into that schedule for the afternoon (possibly unless it was a match with playoff ramifications).

That is a very common demographic for the suburbs, and it's why locating a team in the suburbs is a problem. It's great to get families out, but they're usually not the demographic that's going to commit to a full season.