CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[Kingston]

37 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I really dont know why everyone entertains Ozzie_the_parrot. He's just found his niche in here tickling everyone's tits when I comes to the CPL. I remember he was adamant it would never happen in the first place and now he just entertains himself trolling the CPL no matter what the scenario. In 20 years if the CPL was the greatest league in the world he'd be putting it down saying it's not as good as the Saudi funded European Super league. He's not really being sincere but he's clearly good at getting under everyone's skin. I actually give him a lot of credit. He's oddly committed to it (not sure why) and he's very good at it

Or he simply believes the current CPL model isn't viable and that a scaled down model will work.  It's not an opinion I agree with but it's an opinion.

I don't get why so many people on this board aggressively lose their minds when someone suggests that the CPL won't work.  It's a discussion board.  

[Ansem]

41 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Or he simply believes the current CPL model isn't viable and that a scaled down model will work.  It's not an opinion I agree with but it's an opinion.

I don't get why so many people on this board aggressively lose their minds when someone suggests that the CPL won't work.  It's a discussion board.  

Not someone - just him. He's posting in bad faith, we can handle pessimism

[SpursFlu]

44 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Or he simply believes the current CPL model isn't viable and that a scaled down model will work.  It's not an opinion I agree with but it's an opinion.

I don't get why so many people on this board aggressively lose their minds when someone suggests that the CPL won't work.  It's a discussion board.  

It's not 1 topic and  im not gonna get down in the weeds on every last thing. Can you take a bus from Saskatoon to Winnipeg? I say yes, you so no. So hypothetical arguments over hypothetical scenarios that I can tell you will never matter one way or another. He's just the official opposition and 99% of the topics are not and never will be a reality. I think he just gets a kick out of it and people get sucked in to it time and time again 

[Haligonian#1]

I think the league can survive. New teams from strong markets need to be brought online. These teams need to be established in non-MLS markets. I would focus on Quebec City, KW, London, and another city. The markets need to have a strong identity, i.e. not a suburban community of a larger metropolitan area. I think that KW is far enough from Toronto to meet that criterion.

A deep analysis needs to be done of existing teams. I would hire a proper market research company to undertake this analysis. I would focus on soccer fans that attend matches, soccer fans that don't attend matches, and fans of other sports. What do they like and don't like about the team/league, stadium, stadium location, game day experience, etc. Only then will you have a sense of what is working and what isn't. I think that the main drawback for attendance might be a general lack of awareness and stadium location.

Each team would get a report about what is working and not working. You fix the issues that aren't working and you likely get a boost in attendance. It is not rocket science. However, as a season ticket holder since 2019 for the HFX Wanderers, I have never been surveyed on my experience attending matches, what I like and don't like, and what should be done to improve my experience. I doubt that the struggling teams have done any better.

[kacbru]

5 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

I honestly hate these population arguments. They're so misleading. Vancouver gets the benefit of Maple Ridge but kelowna doesn't get the benefit of Vernon ans Penticton. Yet it's a quicker commute from the latter . Vancouver gets the benefit of Langley but Surrey doest get the benefit of Langley yet Langley and Surrey are basically the same community

The best statistic if it's so necessary to use a number is airport traffic. It's a better way of gaging a geographical area 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_busiest_airports_in_Canada

Off-topic - how the hell is Boundary Bay Airport #3 in flight movements?  When I used to work in Delta I would sometimes have lunch at the diner at the airport after a trip to the dump.  Me, the cook/waiter, a bored flight school pilot and a guy that used to run his dogs around the airport catching rabbits.

[SpursFlu]

36 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Off-topic - how the hell is Boundary Bay Airport #3 in flight movements?  When I used to work in Delta I would sometimes have lunch at the diner at the airport after a trip to the dump.  Me, the cook/waiter, a bored flight school pilot and a guy that used to run his dogs around the airport catching rabbits.

Good question. I think all the eco tourism, small planes and sesnas go out of there. All those small planes dropping off hunters, fisherman or just back country outdoors people. I've known people who have worked in lodges on Haida Gwaii and it's just a constant flow of people from around the world being dropped off.  Also a lot of flight training people just logging their hours comes out of there. That's my theory but that jumped out to me also

Edited August 25, 2023 by SpursFlu

[SoccMan]

2 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I think the league can survive. New teams from strong markets need to be brought online. These teams need to be established in non-MLS markets. I would focus on Quebec City, KW, London, and another city. The markets need to have a strong identity, i.e. not a suburban community of a larger metropolitan area. I think that KW is far enough from Toronto to meet that criterion.

A deep analysis needs to be done of existing teams. I would hire a proper market research company to undertake this analysis. I would focus on soccer fans that attend matches, soccer fans that don't attend matches, and fans of other sports. What do they like and don't like about the team/league, stadium, stadium location, game day experience, etc. Only then will you have a sense of what is working and what isn't. I think that the main drawback for attendance might be a general lack of awareness and stadium location.

Each team would get a report about what is working and not working. You fix the issues that aren't working and you likely get a boost in attendance. It is not rocket science. However, as a season ticket holder since 2019 for the HFX Wanderers, I have never been surveyed on my experience attending matches, what I like and don't like, and what should be done to improve my experience. I doubt that the struggling teams have done any better.

No more teams in the Toronto area for now , Toronto area and any of it’s suburbs. The only thing I would do is maybe the Woodbine thing for York United other than that stay away from any of the Toronto suburbs . Moreover , no more teams in Vancouver, let Vancouver FC try and grow . Push hard for Quebec City before even contemplating Montreal . We need teams in places like London , Kitchener and maybe Windsor for Ontario . A team in Saskatchewan for sure and maybe another team in the Maritimes . Moreover, maybe try to give Edmonton another go . That would take you to about 12 teams in cities that I think have potential to grow and be successful in my opinion.

[-Hammer-]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:51 PM, SoccMan said:

No more teams in the Toronto area for now , Toronto area and any of it’s suburbs. The only thing I would do is maybe the Woodbine thing for York United other than that stay away from any of the Toronto suburbs . Moreover , no more teams in Vancouver, let Vancouver FC try and grow . Push hard for Quebec City before even contemplating Montreal . We need teams in places like London , Kitchener and maybe Windsor for Ontario . A team in Saskatchewan for sure and maybe another team in the Maritimes . Moreover, maybe try to give Edmonton another go . That would take you to about 12 teams in cities that I think have potential to grow and be successful in my opinion.

I would say, depends where you are drawing the line of Toronto's suburbs, but yes. Unless you have incredibly deep pockets and you are intentionally marketing your product as an alternative to TFC, you aren't going to make a lot of headway in Toronto. MLSE's pricier style over substance vs better bang for your buck model regrettably works.

We needed a team in Quebec City at inception. Now that we are five years in, it's absurd we don't have a team in Quebec somewhere. I have serious concerns with the ownership of Forge not allowing a London or KW market to become realized, but sincerely hope I am proven wrong. KW frankly is a much better spot to land a team then York, provided you have an owner with deep pockets.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

....I have serious concerns with the ownership of Forge not allowing a London or KW market to become realized, but sincerely hope I am proven wrong. KW frankly is a much better spot to land a team then York, provided you have an owner with deep pockets.

Guess we can forget about St Catherines and the Niagara peninsula ever having a team separate from Hamilton if that is the mentality of the Ticats/Forge ownership. London seems a bit of a stretch to me as being Ticats territory (can't think of anyone I know who follows them in any way) but given the way southwestern Ontario never seems to be on the radar for CFL expansion, I've also had similar concerns ever since K/W didnt get in at the outset despite having an interested investor with reasonably deep pockets. They really couldn't find a way to make Wilfred Laurier's U-Sports stadium work?

This old Reddit post provides an interesting insight into what the CFL approach is to this issue:

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

8 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

I have serious concerns with the ownership of Forge not allowing a London or KW market to become realized, but sincerely hope I am proven wrong. KW frankly is a much better spot to land a team then York, provided you have an owner with deep pockets.

Considering there were once conversations about multiple teams in larger cities, I'd think KW and Hamilton and London would be okay from a proximity perspective.

[Kingston]

Per the CPL website for this weekend:

No report from York on Friday.

4907 in Halifax on Saturday.  Still a good crowd but it shows even Halifax is affected by the weather.

5211 in Ottawa for a big match up against Forge.

4617 in Calgary for another big match up, this time against Pacific.

[gator]

Looking at the standings and schedule things are set up for a thrilling race for 1st overall and play off qualification and positioning, I know we can get into some shit weather this time of year but I expect some good gates with the importance of so many of the remaining fixtures!

[Aird25]

20 minutes ago, gator said:

Looking at the standings and schedule things are set up for a thrilling race for 1st overall and play off qualification and positioning, I know we can get into some shit weather this time of year but I expect some good gates with the importance of so many of the remaining fixtures!

Which is exactly why front loading home games at the start of the season has always hurt Pacific

[Ftduck]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:52 PM, Haligonian#1 said:

I have never been surveyed on my experience attending matches, what I like and don't like, and what should be done to improve my experience.

I get an email from Forge after every game regarding a fan experience survey FYI. 

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

Which is exactly why front loading home games at the start of the season has always hurt Pacific

It seems logical that it would but, looking at the data, the average for their last three games is the same as their average for the season.  (Actually very slightly lower, but in rounding error range.)  So it doesn't look like it actually has this year, anyway.

[An Observer]

19 hours ago, Kingston said:

Considering there were once conversations about multiple teams in larger cities, I'd think KW and Hamilton and London would be okay from a proximity perspective.

I seriously doubt there are any significant numbers of people traveling now to watch Forge from any of those two cities/ regions. And both would create an instant rivalry which would bring more away fans to those matches than any lost and improve the overall atmosphere. Plus it gives Forge fans another road trip that helps build the fan culture. They would be crazy to block this.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

22 hours ago, Kingston said:

Considering there were once conversations about multiple teams in larger cities, I'd think KW and Hamilton and London would be okay from a proximity perspective.

That's a long time ago now and it's worth noting that it was Windsor that got the provisional expansion club even though it's well down the list of Canadian and Ontario city population rankings relative to K-W, London, St Catherines and Oshawa:

 

Those four large regional Ontario cities (along with Quebec City) are where they would likely need to get into next to make a league that isn't working in the three MLS markets (plus Edmonton any time soon) viable long term.

If you are looking at it from a long term investment standpoint, however, and you are trying to keep companies like Mediapro and Macron interested it's not so easy to let go of the dream of usurping MLS's stranglehold over the three big markets that have 1 in 3 Canadians resident and a Hamilton ownership group revolving around the Ticats might have a CFL mentality first and foremost as to what is in their best interests.

If you have successfully positioned yourself to control not only the CFL territorial rights on the southwestern Ontario peninsula but also those of potential competitors in the sport of soccer, you can make sure St Catherines-Niagara never has a fully pro sports team operating at the same time of year you are trying to sell Ticats tickets. The Ticats have always struggled to achieve viable attendance so that market in particular doing its own thing could easily be viewed as a red line.

A London team may not be an issue so much in terms of London itself but there's also a big chunk of countryside stretching out to close to Brantford and Simcoe that can fall into London's orbit more than it does Hamilton's. With K/W on board you can forget about Cambridge and even Brantford might gravitate to a certain extent towards K/W. With K/W, London and St Catherines with rival fully pro summer-fall sports teams, all of a sudden the Ticats/Forge are left with only Burlington, Dundas and Grimsby as solidly in their patch.

Hope this is just paranoia but Windsor, Saskatoon and Kelowna along with the mythical Quebec team being pushed as what's up next fits the MO on this.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

it's not so easy to let go of the dream of usurping MLS's stranglehold over the three big markets that have 1 in 3 Canadians resident and a Hamilton ownership group revolving around the Ticats might have a CFL mentality first and foremost as to what is in their best interests.

You're killing me man

 

The league is far too young and in need of capital to be thinking about "territorial rights" at this point. If clubs in KW and London adds new capital to the league and create rivalries that will add more interest in the product and new traveling paying customers to their stadium - Forge won't oppose it. Rich people aren't in the business of turning down opportunities to make money or make their ROI faster - that's how they got rich in the first place. Forge aren't the Maples Leafs

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Hope this is just paranoia

You think?

 

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

the mythical Quebec team

It's real, not mythical - lots of work is being done in the background

 

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That's a long time ago now and it's worth noting that it was Windsor that got the provisional expansion club even though it's well down the list of Canadian and Ontario city population rankings relative to K-W, London, St Catherines and Oshawa:

Multiple cities in major markets was discussed.  I personally have never thought it was a good or viable idea.

I honestly don't think Windsor was ever anything more than a face-saving exit strategy for the former commissioner.  

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If you are looking at it from a long term investment standpoint, however, and you are trying to keep companies like Mediapro and Macron interested it's not so easy to let go of the dream of usurping MLS's stranglehold over the three big markets that have 1 in 3 Canadians resident and a Hamilton ownership group revolving around the Ticats might have a CFL mentality first and foremost as to what is in their best interests.

If you have successfully positioned yourself to control not only the CFL territorial rights on the southwestern Ontario peninsula but also those of potential competitors in the sport of soccer, you can make sure St Catherines-Niagara never has a fully pro sports team operating at the same time of year you are trying to sell Ticats tickets. The Ticats have always struggled to achieve viable attendance so that market in particular doing its own thing could easily be viewed as a red line.

Basically no to all of this.

The CPL doesn't need the MLS markets to be successful and should view any success in those markets as gravy.

There's no reason for the Hamilton Sports Group to be football-only focused or to fear CPL teams in nearby markets for a number of reasons. 

First, sports group companies exist because of the benefits of running multiple teams.  MLSE doesn't try to suppress the Argos to protect TFC - they want both selling out the stadium.  Same with HSG in Hamilton. 

Second, and related, there isn't necessarily a whole lot of overlap between the Ticat and Forge fan bases.  Some, I'm sure, but not enough to worry about detracting from each others' ticket sales.  If anything, they're more likely to interest fans in trying a game at the other sport.

Third, the Ticats are doing fine.  Last year Stelco bought a minority stake for $20 million, which projects a team value of $50 million which, in turn, makes the Ticats the most valuable CFL team.  They aren't worried that Forge will hurt them.

Fourth, the market reach of CPL teams is limited.  As An Observer pointed out, it's unlikely any meaningful numbers of fans travel to Forge games from KW or London.  Forge would see more ticket sales from travelling away fans from those cities than it sees now in terms of Forge fans in those cities.

Fifth, and finally, Forge would see meaningful reductions in travel costs with away games in KW and London instead of Winnipeg and Victoria.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

31 minutes ago, Kingston said:

...First, sports group companies exist because of the benefits of running multiple teams.  MLSE doesn't try to suppress the Argos to protect TFC - they want both selling out the stadium.  Same with HSG in Hamilton...

MLSE didn't want the Argos. They were taken on board as a charity case in exchange for provincial and federal funding to upgrade BMO Field. MLSE haven't bust a gut trying to promote the CFL since then. Instead, what they were actually most gung ho about was the XFL merger scenario because the NFL is where a lot of Canadian sports execs really want Toronto to be in gridiron terms rather than a Canada only league. In a similar manner, it's naive to think the Forge automatically matter anything like as much to Bob Young & Co as the Ticats and couldn't be used as a means to an end that is more about what ultimately benefits the Ticats and the CFL than soccer.

Arguably, the biggest threat to the future of the CFL beyond the Toronto to the NFL scenario is what soccer in the shape of MLS is doing to its status as a major Canadian cultural icon in the three major markets. That's especially true for the Ticats who have a one-sided rivalry with the Argos as one of their main marketing strategies even though almost nobody in the GTA cares about it any more. The last time the CFL held a Grey Cup in Toronto interest was tepid at best and there was even some talk of freebie tickets being linked in to pizza delivery deals. 

Meanwhile back at the ranch, if you can position yourself to control the D1 sanctioned Canadian soccer league and manage to get the CSA board to sign over key CMNT and CWNT revenue streams out to 2037 you provide yourself with an opportunity to shape the future of the sport that is potentially one of your biggest problems where the future of the Ticats is concerned. Maybe Bob Young really does love soccer as much as gridiron but there are other possible motives as well.

[Aird25]

23 hours ago, Kingston said:

It seems logical that it would but, looking at the data, the average for their last three games is the same as their average for the season.  (Actually very slightly lower, but in rounding error range.)  So it doesn't look like it actually has this year, anyway.

It’s not the only factor. Having 4 home games in 2 weeks sucks, as does 1 home game in 5 weeks. Three home games ago takes us to early July, and it was at the tail end of another long home game stretch. It’s not until recently that we’ve seen a bump in other cities, now that we’re in the home stretch and the standings are so tight. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 8/28/2023 at 2:42 PM, gator said:

Looking at the standings and schedule things are set up for a thrilling race for 1st overall and play off qualification and positioning, I know we can get into some shit weather this time of year but I expect some good gates with the importance of so many of the remaining fixtures!

The problem is the CPL media doesn't generate any such narratives. It's weak, poorly done. Even the individual clubs are weak creating the stories to make this tight race into something worth caring about.

A key defect 5 years into the league.

[Kingston]

23 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

MLSE didn't want the Argos. They were taken on board as a charity case in exchange for provincial and federal funding to upgrade BMO Field. MLSE haven't bust a gut trying to promote the CFL since then. Instead, what they were actually most gung ho about was the XFL merger scenario because the NFL is where a lot of Canadian sports execs really want Toronto to be in gridiron terms rather than a Canada only league. In a similar manner, it's naive to think the Forge automatically matter anything like as much to Bob Young & Co as the Ticats and couldn't be used as a means to an end that is more about what ultimately benefits the Ticats and the CFL than soccer.

I'm not saying Forge is equal to the Ticats for HSG.  I'm saying HSG wants both to succeed.

As for the Argos, if MLSE didn't want them, they wouldn't have bought them.  My internet searches leave it unclear who paid how much for the BMO Field upgrades but it doesn't look like the government added a lot - certainly not enough for MLSE to buy a CFL team just for that.  As for a merger of the XFL and CFL, I suspect it will happen shortly after the CPL/MLS merger.

23 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Arguably, the biggest threat to the future of the CFL beyond the Toronto to the NFL scenario is what soccer in the shape of MLS is doing to its status as a major Canadian cultural icon in the three major markets.

Montreal is the most recent Canadian MLS team and they've been in place for more than a decade.  Whatever impact the MLS teams are going to have on the sporting landscape in those cities has already happened.

On 8/29/2023 at 9:47 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Meanwhile back at the ranch, if you can position yourself to control the D1 sanctioned Canadian soccer league and manage to get the CSA board to sign over key CMNT and CWNT revenue streams out to 2037 you provide yourself with an opportunity to shape the future of the sport that is potentially one of your biggest problems where the future of the Ticats is concerned. Maybe Bob Young really does love soccer as much as gridiron but there are other possible motives as well.

I suppose if you want to look at it as a conspiracy theory.  In reality, the numbers of fans who might stop going to Ticats games if the CPL put teams in places like London, KW, or St. Catharines would be a rounding error on the Ticats' attendance.  They'd get way more benefit for their effort in trying to maximize Forge revenue than in worrying about what theoretical additional soccer teams in southern Ontario might do to Ticats revenue.

[Aird25]

23 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The problem is the CPL media doesn't generate any such narratives. It's weak, poorly done. Even the individual clubs are weak creating the stories to make this tight race into something worth caring about.

A key defect 5 years into the league.

That’s seems to be all OneSoccer talks about these days in a CPL context. That and Dan Nimick. The individual clubs don’t produce anything other than the occasional tweet about a matchday though 

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 hours ago, Aird25 said:

That’s seems to be all OneSoccer talks about these days in a CPL context. That and Dan Nimick. The individual clubs don’t produce anything other than the occasional tweet about a matchday though 

One Soccer has no reach to non-attending fans. But the league should be all in creating these stories. Coordinating partially with the clubs.

Mind you, MLS is also very parochial with the promo nights too. Almost every single club or league wide theme night is useless and the only thing that makes any sense to most fans is cheaper food and especially drink. 

Case in point, your everyday sports fan in Vancouver just barely might know if the Caps are in a playoff spot. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist