CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

...Maybe Woodbine may work it’s worth a try with a proper soccer stadium...

Is the renovated York Lions really that bad and can it be beat for location? At some point they need to avoid wishful thinking and accept that even if you build it they likely still won't come for something like this in the GTA no matter how you brand it or market it.

The markets they really need to be looking at in an Ontario context to try to emulate Halifax are Windsor (guess that's happening but not sure how serious that really was or if it was more of a face saving exit for David Clanachan), London (yes I am likely to be very biased on that), K/W (another market where there was serious interest but a U-sports share was not viewed as acceptable), St Catherines and maybe Oshawa.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I'd say that TFC and Argos aren't on the same level as the Leafs, Jays or Raptors who truly enjoy a city-wide following. Argos have their demographics and TFC is more in the downtown and Lakeshore lines areas. I'd be generous to talk about midtown - never saw people with TFC merch south of Eglinton - not even St.Clair.

Yes, TFC and the Argos aren't on the same level as the other teams.  I'm surprised, though, that you don't see any TFC stuff around town.  I see TFC shirts in Kingston and Ottawa all the time but in Toronto all the TFC fans live within a short distance of the stadium?

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

I'm just saying - we can't compare. Technically, Argos are 2nd rated and yet they have decent coverage and attendance. It's not that black and white. Up to the CPL to figure it out but there's enough people around to make this work

The Argos have over a century of history on their side.  I'm not sure anyone would start a Toronto CFL team today.

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

CPL doesn't need all of Toronto from the get go, if Woodbine is good to go they should focus on Etobicoke North & North York and work to grow organically from there. That's already around half a million people people, York 9/York United was all over the place and ended up with nothing.

I don't think it's about the stadium, the location, the owners, or the population of the immediate area.  I just don't think the market is interested in anything second tier.  In fact, even if there was a well positioned CPL team in town and TFC vanished, I don't think many of the fans would transfer over.  The problem is the market, not anything a CPL team would do or not do.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

I don't think it's about the stadium, the location, the owners, or the population of the immediate area.  I just don't think the market is interested in anything second tier.  In fact, even if there was a well positioned CPL team in town and TFC vanished, I don't think many of the fans would transfer over.  The problem is the market, not anything a CPL team would do or not do.

Maybe we're talking past one another. Am I saying that a CPL club will draw 20k+? Very unlikely in the short or median term. Could they draw 5k if all those conditions were met in a city of close to 3M (~800k for North York alone and Etobicoke ~400K) with a direct frequent train link (Kitchener Line) between Downtown Brampton (620k) and Woodbine in the works? No doubt about it.

If TFC vanished, the entire GTA would just stop going to live soccer altogether? Disagree, CPL would just expand into BMO as it's city-owned and they'd want a tenant there while York United either goes to Woodbine or the league opts to move them.

The challenge for a Toronto CPL club is that they need to "look" top league, have quality on the pitch/putting a great show and win-win-win ASAP because even TFC isn't immune to attendance drop when they suck because people can just go see another team or do something else.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Ansem

[Kingston]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Could they draw 5k if all those conditions were met in a city of close to 3M (~800k for North York alone and Etobicoke ~400K) with a direct frequent train link (Kitchener Line) between Downtown Brampton (620k) and Woodbine in the works? No doubt about it.

I don't think we're talking past each other, I just think we disagree.  I do not think such a team would draw 5000.  I think they would be largely ignored similar to York.

(As a quick aside, I'm not sure why you think TFC only draws fans from right around the stadium but a CPL team would pull from the entire western end of the GTA.)

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

If TFC vanished, the entire GTA would just stop going to live soccer altogether? Disagree, CPL would just expand into BMO as it's city-owned and they'd want a tenant there while York United either goes to Woodbine or the league opts to move them.

I think that, unfortunately, we'd be back to the pre-TFC Toronto Lynx drawing two or three thousand fans.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I don't think we're talking past each other, I just think we disagree.  I do not think such a team would draw 5000.  I think they would be largely ignored similar to York.

(As a quick aside, I'm not sure why you think TFC only draws fans from right around the stadium but a CPL team would pull from the entire western end of the GTA.)

I think that, unfortunately, we'd be back to the pre-TFC Toronto Lynx drawing two or three thousand fans.

Well, we'll have to see who's right a few years from now.

As for TFC only drawing around their stadium, I did include the Lakeshore Lines (it's almost as if location matters). Had BMO been built at York U like it was planned at first, things would have played out vastly differently in my opinion.

 

I mentioned South of St.Clair for TFC. I've lived right at Yonge and Eglinton during the MLS Cup and Giovinco years and TFC gear was very very rare in that part of midtown - I don't see it in North York.

 

For Woodbine, the station will be built replacing Etobicoke North on the Kitchener Line. Downtown Brampton (Bramalea) and the new midtown subway line will both be 2 stops away. Not saying they will automatically draw in Brampton but there's potential if they invest in marketing there - the proximity would make sense

Having the new LRT linking the stadium near Humber College to the subway line while going through North York and Etobicoke will be a huge improvement to their current situation. Lots of people lives there.

[jonovision]

4 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Hang on a minute no one seemed to complain when CFL stadiums were built for a team in a sport that only has 9 or maybe 10 home games .

Maybe you don't live in one of the 3 cities that has had a new CFL stadium built in 2 generations, but there was absolutely huge opposition to the amount of government support they received to get built. I even agreed with much of it at the time, in Winnipeg.

The stadiums in Winnipeg and Regina both also host U Sport football which gets CPL-level crowds, and lots of high school games.

[Tigers]

There was *years* of fighting about if/where to build the stadium in Hamilton, and there was only funding for it because of the "Toronto" PanAm games.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Tigers

[Haligonian#1]

5 hours ago, SoccMan said:

It’s a no brainer a CPL team would work in Quebec City with a proper stadium and location, forget about Montreal for now get Quebec City done and then Montreal could come in after and draw from the Quebec City success. It boggles the mind that it hasn’t been done yet .

 

You read my mind.

[BurndenAce]

I think a CPL team would easily work in Toronto, but it would need two major things in its favour

1. A proper marketing campaign. I was in high school in an ethnically diverse neighbourhood where we all watched the Premier League religiously when the CPL was announced. Almost to a T, nobody was aware of it but me. York was not a Toronto team (and still isn't, despite what some people on the sub are implying) so nobody had any reason/interest to follow the league. A Toronto-based team needs to market itself well, and attract the huge population of those who watch soccer in this city. Of course, TFC remains an issue, but that brings me to point #2.

2. A stadium in a populated area. York fails because they play at a university campus that's barely in Toronto to begin with, and is surrounded by warehouses and industrial land. Moving to Woodbine isn't going to magically solve that problem, no matter how many GO lines run through it, because it's still far away from most populated areas. A stadium needs to be in a populated area - I don't care if it's Downtown, Midtown, the East End, Scarborough, North York, Etobicoke or the West End - just put it somewhere near housing and a transit line and for the love of God DO NOT put it in another industrial district. I'm actually going to disagree with Ansem here - as someone who grew up in Midtown, Leaside and East York would kill to have a sports team playing in their vicinity. Lamport would be a fantastic place if it weren't so close to BMO Field, but something south of Eglinton or St. Clair could function well if it was a community-focused development.
 

A note about the Argonauts - The reason the attendances are lower than everywhere else are two reasons - Canadian Football is not especially popular amongst the recent immigrants (of which there are many) compared to Basketball or Soccer, and the younger generation is more connected to the NFL purely because it's the better marketed league. It has nothing to do with the fact that we're a more "American" city (whatever the heck that means), nor does it have to do with being in a Canadian only league. I understand that Toronto-bashing is a national sport in some parts of the country, but it's far more productive to analyze how this city functions so we can have a successful team in the area

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The problem with the narrative that people simply didn't know about York 9 back in 2019 is that they were able to draw a much more reasonable crowd for a weeknight Canadian Championship game against CF Montreal:

Now that we are in the fifth season and York United have played against TFC at BMO Field along the way there's clearly plenty of soccer people in the GTA who know the CanPL team is there but just aren't interested in watching. Take TFC out of the equation and the experience from when the Lynx were around is that it wouldn't make any significant difference.

You need to go back to the NSL in the 70s and into the early 80s (note I am talking about the NSL and not the NASL) for a time when there was a solid culture of Canadian domestic pro league soccer drawing significant crowds in the GTA. By the CSL era that was in precipitous decline for a variety of reasons and beyond a brief dead cat bounce with the Serbian White Eagles vs Toronto Croatia fixture about 15 years ago it has never come back.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Kingston]

15 hours ago, Ansem said:

Well, we'll have to see who's right a few years from now.

Hopefully you are.

[Kingston]

7 hours ago, BurndenAce said:

A note about the Argonauts - The reason the attendances are lower than everywhere else are two reasons - Canadian Football is not especially popular amongst the recent immigrants (of which there are many) compared to Basketball or Soccer, and the younger generation is more connected to the NFL purely because it's the better marketed league. It has nothing to do with the fact that we're a more "American" city (whatever the heck that means), nor does it have to do with being in a Canadian only league. I understand that Toronto-bashing is a national sport in some parts of the country, but it's far more productive to analyze how this city functions so we can have a successful team in the area

Toronto doesn't see itself as American.  It sees itself as much larger than any other Canadian city and therefore, in the realm of sports leagues, it sees the larger US cities as its peers instead.  And really, Toronto is one and a half times the size of Montreal (which might be a peer), two and a half times the size of Vancouver, and more than four times the size of Ottawa, Calgary, or Edmonton.  In context, does Calgary consider Saskatoon to be a peer city?

[narduch]

I always find it hilarious when people call Toronto American.

In my opinion the people who most want to be Americans live in Alberta or Saskatchewan.

Basically all the Fuck Trudeau morons all have a weird infatuation with the US

Edited August 11, 2023 by narduch

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I always find it hilarious when people call Toronto American.

In my opinion the people who most want to be Americans live in Alberta or Saskatchewan.

Basically all the Fuck Trudeau morons all have a weird infatuation with the US

Geez people think people from Toronto act American? Where would they ever get that impression from 🤔 

[Ansem]

Toronto is not American but it has "higher" standards than the rest of the medium/low markets due to the current sport offering. It's up to CPL to meet the higher standards to draw in Toronto. York 9 was an epic fail if that was the intent.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ansem

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

I always find it hilarious when people call Toronto American.

In my opinion the people who most want to be Americans live in Alberta or Saskatchewan.

Basically all the Fuck Trudeau morons all have a weird infatuation with the US

Depends where you are in Alberta, Edmonton has a very un- American vibe, Calgary is increasing international, and a little bit of that is American, further south many people are part American and so sound and act that way, for good or bad.

But you don't have to be American to dislike Trudeau 😉.

 

Edit: For me, living  in Toronto was more like living in England as compared to when I lived in the States.

But could also have been where I lived and what I was doing.

Edited August 11, 2023 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[SpursFlu]

I applaud people from Toronto for their enthusiasm. I always get along and appreciate people from Ontario because they're less wishy washy then what you get in Vancouver. But they do tend to come across as style bitters at time. Whatever seems to be the "thing" they just get all fired up over it with little self awareness and a ton of confidence. That's probably where the American thing comes from. It's kind of a Shooter McGaven vibe that comes out of Toronto. Maybe that's why they like Trudeau so much. He's kinda like a woke Shooter McGaven 

I would also add that's why everyone in BC hates Trudeau. All sides. Because people here are genuine weirdos. They live that life. It's been passed down thru generations. They're not just pretending to gain social clout. They genuinely believe all that craziness 

Edited August 11, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Aird25]

Sorry for initiating this Toronto/American talk but I didn't mean it in the way it's being discussed now. Just a flippant comment. I wasn't talking about political stances or people from Toronto being more American than elsewhere in Canada. I was just pointing out how people in Toronto seem like they would much rather compete against larger American cities than smaller Canadian ones. Which is understandable. A lot of folks in smaller Canadian cities also support Canadian teams competing in American competitions even though they're not in our cities and we'll rarely see them play live. Sport is one thing America does very well. I consider it somewhat similar to folks from all over the world supporting the biggest soccer teams in the world. 

It's just mind boggling to me that Toronto can't sustain a team that competes in Canada's top domestic league. A team full of players from Toronto and surrounding communities. One that's trying to improve local and national opportunities and they can't even draw a few thousand people from a city of millions. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of appreciation for being the best in Canada. Every other city in Canada may very well be similar, but I hope not. If the majority of folks around the world had the same general mentality, the Super League would've taken over ages ago and we wouldn't see leagues in every country anymore.

Now I'll prepare for the complaints about nationalism

[grasshopper1917]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

 

It's just mind boggling to me that Toronto can't sustain a team that competes in Canada's top domestic league. A team full of players from Toronto and surrounding communities. One that's trying to improve local and national opportunities and they can't even draw a few thousand people from a city of millions. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of appreciation for being the best in Canada. Every other city in Canada may very well be similar, but I hope not. If the majority of folks around the world had the same general mentality, the Super League would've taken over ages ago and we wouldn't see leagues in every country anymore.

Now I'll prepare for the complaints about nationalism

I mean I think Toronto has a history of supporting only top flight teams. The GTA is a graveyard of minor league/second tier/Jr. sports teams.

However there is a glimmer of hope. One that surprises me the 'Toronto Marlies' have been able to draw crows in the 5000 area for quite a while. I know not earth shattering however im sure the CPL would be please if they had a team in the GTA drawing Marlie type numbers. 

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

I mean I think Toronto has a history of supporting only top flight teams. The GTA is a graveyard of minor league/second tier/Jr. sports teams.

However there is a glimmer of hope. One that surprises me the 'Toronto Marlies' have been able to draw crows in the 5000 area for quite a while. I know not earth shattering however im sure the CPL would be please if they had a team in the GTA drawing Marlie type numbers. 

Marketing, location, ownership, venue, competitive/winning team

Quintuple checks 😉

[Watchmen]

20 minutes ago, grasshopper1917 said:

I mean I think Toronto has a history of supporting only top flight teams. The GTA is a graveyard of minor league/second tier/Jr. sports teams.

However there is a glimmer of hope. One that surprises me the 'Toronto Marlies' have been able to draw crows in the 5000 area for quite a while. I know not earth shattering however im sure the CPL would be please if they had a team in the GTA drawing Marlie type numbers. 

But they're also an affiliate of the Maple Leafs. If you can't afford a Leafs game, I can see this as being a reasonable alternative to still see what's in the system.

[Watchmen]

13 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Marketing, location, ownership, venue, competitive/winning team

Quintuple checks 😉

So, a TFC farm team? Like the Marlies?

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

So, a TFC farm team? Like the Marlies?

TFC II doesnt have the venue, definately not competitive or winning, don't have the right location - marketing debatable --> Nope, Manning already voiced that a hypothetical club in CPL would be treated as a reserve team.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Ansem

[Watchmen]

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

TFC II doesnt have the venue, definately not competitive or winning, don't have the right location - marketing debatable --> Nope, Manning already voiced that a hypothetical club in CPL would be treated as a reserve team.

I know. I was kidding. But that's what the Marlies are, a farm team for the biggest team in hockey. And that matters more for that market than all the other aspects you mention (though I guess technically that falls under ownership). It's not "quintuple check", it's one check that really, really matters.

[Bison44]

31 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Marketing, location, ownership, venue, competitive/winning team

Quintuple checks 😉

Yeah but its hockey, any time people try to compare hockey with soccer fan bases and attendance etc, its just a waste of time.  The Brandon wheat kings (50K) will outdraw Valour (750K).  Did TFC2 ever draw much more than York has been pulling?  Most of the time its been waYYYYYY less or they play to empty stands.