CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[Haligonian#1]

37 minutes ago, jonovision said:

There have been 3 new stadiums built in the CFL in the last 40 years. I don't know about Regina or Hamilton but I do know there were plenty of complaints, many blinking eyes, about government money being spent on IG Field in Winnipeg.

Very much varies from city to city. I'd be shocked if soccer surpassed football in the prairies any time in the next 3 or 4 decades

I would like a right-sized and located stadium (not necessarily soccer specific) in each CPL city, but costs should be considered. And I don't think the venue makes the ultimate difference between success and failure.

You are probably right about the Prairies... probably a reason not to locate a CPL team there. We have to be honest, soccer won't work in every market. If I was working for the CPL, I would be pushing hard for Quebec City. A properly located stadium and marketed team could likely attract average attendances in the 6,000-10,000 range.

[jonovision]

2 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

I disagree, location makes all the difference. I personally think that not paying enough attention to the choice of stadium location is one of the main issues regarding attendance in the CPL, the other one being co-locating in MLS markets.

Most of the CPL cities had basically no choice in stadium location because they or local governments weren't going to shell out for a brand new stadium for a team in a fledgling league. The two most successful teams after Halifax, attendance-wise, play in non-central CFL stadiums. I do agree with your point about MLS markets.

Basically, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all panacea here.

[BurndenAce]

7 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Toronto isn't Canadian when it comes to sport though. Winning that market would be huge, but we shouldn't expect much. They seem to vision themselves as a big American city

Nah, we're quite happy being a big Canadian city. The only team in Toronto that doesn't pull similar numbers/similar enthusiasm to the rest of the country are the Argonauts, and that's mainly for demographic reasons. Leafs, Raptors, Jays and TFC fans are everywhere, and they're rapid.

[Haligonian#1]

1 minute ago, jonovision said:

Most of the CPL cities had basically no choice in stadium location because they or local governments weren't going to shell out for a brand new stadium for a team in a fledgling league. The two most successful teams after Halifax, attendance-wise, play in non-central CFL stadiums. I do agree with your point about MLS markets.

Basically, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all panacea here.

But Hamilton has roughly twice the population of Halifax and Ottawa 3 times the population of Halifax. They should therefore be at least equalling the Halifax attendance, if not surpassing it. The non-central CFL stadiums may have a role to play in that.

I am not arguing that there aren't any big costs attached to my vision, but I am also trying to find solutions to lackluster attendance numbers in some cities. I don't think that it is due to a lack of interest in soccer, but might be the offering, specifically location and stadium atmosphere. People keep saying on this forum that Halifax is a success. I agree, so I am trying to identify what attracts people to the Wanderers Grounds so that markets contemplating a CPL team will "do it right", instead of folding.

I think that the CPL should avoid the big 3 (Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver). Maybe they should also avoid the Prairies for the reason that you mentioned. They should carefully consider where to set up their stadium.

[Stanley]

24 minutes ago, BurndenAce said:

. Leafs, Raptors, Jays and TFC fans are everywhere, and they're rapid.

I heard some are quite slow.

[Haligonian#1]

I just looked up the location of the Starlight Stadium (Pacific FC) for the first time on Google Maps. In my opinion, you couldn't find a location further away from the population core of the Victoria Census Metropolitan Area than this location. Looks to be a pretty place, but man it would be hard to get fans out to this location. For those that have never looked it up, I would recommend looking it up. Then you can answer if you feel that the location helps or hampers the team.

In 2019, my wife and I were visiting Victoria and the Wanderers were in town to play against Pacific. We considered going, but felt that it would be too much of a pain to get there. 

[Haligonian#1]

Take a look at the location of ATCO Field in Calgary next. It is basically on the outskirts of Calgary. Who doesn't agree that this has a negative impact on their attendance?

[Bison44]

Boy your really having a go at this eh?  yes Halifax is a success, lots of fans with little to show for it on the field.  Nice stadium in the perfect place etc, built on a park with sporting history owned by the city, good sized town with no CFL, NHL, NBA, MLB or MLS to compete with.  Not everyone else has those parameters to work with. SInce you mentioned ATCO, I assume you know why its there on the outskirts of Calgary? Because the owners already had a mulit use sports complex there that they could convert a part of it to a real grass field for soccer.  They didnt pick the spot for no reason, just like there are reasons Hamilton and Forge play in football stadiums and in both cases it can be a blessing and a drawback.  

Saskatoon would be a better comparison, similar size to Halifax, mb more competition with CEBL.   But its just not that easy to piece together the right town with a cooperating goverment, right stadium location, right kind of stadium and owners etc.   And they have been years trying to get off the ground.  

[SthMelbRed]

9 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Easily the strangest forum. It's like your getting a lap dance  smoking a cigar and a couple guys keeping coming up to you and asking if you want leave and go to chucky cheese 

Credit where it's due. 99% of the shit that you post on this forum is ridiculous garbage. However, this one is worthy of the board HoF. 😄 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

You are probably right about the Prairies... probably a reason not to locate a CPL team there. We have to be honest, soccer won't work in every market...

The WHL seems to be able to find a way to make it work across the Prairies. It's too bad Joe Belan wasn't able to persuade the people that needed to be persuaded that a downscaled Taylor Field should be used for pro soccer in Regina. At that point and particularly if you can also find a viable solution in Saskatoon, Winnipeg isn't as much of a geographical outlier.

Langford that you mentioned in other posts is both a plus for the league in that there's a good chance they would not have been able to launch in 2019 before COVID hit if Stew Young had not come along, but also a negative in being far from the ideal location and putting a dent into what they can achieve in the here and now. Ease up on stadium requirements though and maybe they could find a way to make Royal Athletic Park work and SixFive Sports possibly could also have found something workable in Surrey where they really wanted to be from the get go?

Edited August 10, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Haligonian#1]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The WHL seems to be able to find a way to make it work across the Prairies. It's too bad Joe Belan wasn't able to persuade the people that needed to be persuaded that a downscaled Taylor Field should be used for pro soccer in Regina. At that point and particularly if you can also find a viable solution in Saskatoon, Winnipeg isn't as much of a geographical outlier.

Langford that you mentioned in other posts is both a plus for the league in that there's a good chance they would not have been able to launch in 2019 before COVID hit if Stew Young had not come along, but also a negative in being far from the ideal location and putting a dent into what they can achieve in the here and now. Ease up on stadium requirements though and maybe they could find a way to make Royal Athletic Park work and SixFive Sports possibly could also have found something workable in Surrey where they really wanted to be from the get go?

I agree about easing up on the stadium requirements. Location is more important than building permanent stadiums this early in the game. That was another thing that Halifax got right, i.e. it proved that there was support before even contemplating a permanent stadium.

[grasshopper1917]

I mean to Halagonians point obviously location is a big factor. I get most markets are just 'working with that they had available' and that is fine to start out. However if the league is actually going to be successful we need some proper infrastructure located in good areas. I suspect if out field was on the outskirts or HRM say by the airport we would be drawing about 2000 a game max. 

Leads me to believe if some of the other markets had decent locations they may be drawing a couple thousand more. I mean we can dream one day fans will flock to CFL stadiums but we have a host of data from history that shows giant NFL/CFL size stadiums no not work for soccer in North America. We can hope people will flock to weird locations outside cities but again we see countless examples of how that fails as we see stadium after stadium in every sport being moved from the burbs and into city cores.

Sure its great we have a league. However it is positioned to fail woefully if it just remains in it current form. It almost like here is no leaderships... just a hodgepodge of clubs operating on a shoestring trying to stay afloat.

Im not saying the league is going to fail.... Im just saying if it doesn't evolve and make positive changes it will. It is more the do-able I just dont see the leadership working to better the league.

Edited August 10, 2023 by grasshopper1917

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, grasshopper1917 said:

However it is positioned to fail woefully if it just remains in it current form.

Interesting take. I’m quite fond of the league myself and feel this has perhaps been our best season so far. Most teams seem to be improving and investing more in their squads 

[Aird25]

11 hours ago, BurndenAce said:

Nah, we're quite happy being a big Canadian city. The only team in Toronto that doesn't pull similar numbers/similar enthusiasm to the rest of the country are the Argonauts, and that's mainly for demographic reasons. Leafs, Raptors, Jays and TFC fans are everywhere, and they're rapid.

Sorry, so the only two teams in Toronto that don’t pull similar numbers/similar enthusiasm to the rest of the country are the two that compete in strictly Canadian leagues?

[Kingston]

16 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Sorry, so the only two teams in Toronto that don’t pull similar numbers/similar enthusiasm to the rest of the country are the two that compete in strictly Canadian leagues?

More relevantly, they are two leagues that don't represent the highest available level in their sport (if we equate Canadian and American football).  The CEBL also draws poorly compared to the NBA.

[Aird25]

15 minutes ago, Kingston said:

More relevantly, they are two leagues that don't represent the highest available level in their sport (if we equate Canadian and American football).  The CEBL also draws poorly compared to the NBA.

Neither is MLS, but lacrosse probably is. People all over the world support soccer teams or other things that aren’t the highest level 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Aird25

[Ansem]

41 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Sorry, so the only two teams in Toronto that don’t pull similar numbers/similar enthusiasm to the rest of the country are the two that compete in strictly Canadian leagues?

You're assuming that Toronto even knows that York United even exists. Unless they rebrand as "Toronto" preferably at Woodbine once the club gets sold, YU is an anomaly and not truly a Toronto club

[Kingston]

6 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Neither is MLS, but lacrosse probably is. People all over the world support soccer teams or other things that aren’t the highest level 

MLS is the highest available level for Toronto in that Toronto will never host a team from a higher league.

I agree that people in other areas support second tier sports.  Personally, I went to CSL Blizzard and Lynx games back when I lived in the area and I'm still a big Argos fan.  Overall, however, Toronto just doesn't.  We can complain about it or say that it is dumb, but it simply is the reality and leagues like the CPL need to consider it when placing teams.

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, Kingston said:

MLS is the highest available level for Toronto in that Toronto will never host a team from a higher league.

I agree that people in other areas support second tier sports.  Personally, I went to CSL Blizzard and Lynx games back when I lived in the area and I'm still a big Argos fan.  Overall, however, Toronto just doesn't.  We can complain about it or say that it is dumb, but it simply is the reality and leagues like the CPL need to consider it when placing teams.

Downtown Toronto and south of midtown will probably never support a CPL club over TFC but it could work in Scarborough or Etobicoke (Woodbine) even North York (had they done it right). You're right about the league's approach to Toronto needed to be thought out more carefully

From my personal experience when I was still a TFC fan, I went to BMO a lot when I lived in Parkdale. Once I moved to North York, I went far far less often. Toronto is huge and depending where you live, the trip to Exhibition isn't that convenient when you live far from the lake. Someone on the Lakeshore line can easily make it to BMO faster than a Torontonian in Etobicoke, Scarborough or North York could using TTC or cars via the DVP

Lots of people would support a club in those areas if the brand/identity, location and price were right - York 9 did none of that.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Ansem

[Kingston]

57 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Downtown Toronto and south of midtown will probably never support a CPL club over TFC but it could work in Scarborough or Etobicoke (Woodbine) even North York (had they done it right). You're right about the league's approach to Toronto needed to be thought out more carefully

From my personal experience when I was still a TFC fan, I went to BMO a lot when I lived in Parkdale. Once I moved to North York, I went far far less often. Toronto is huge and depending where you live, the trip to Exhibition isn't that convenient when you live far from the lake. Someone on the Lakeshore line can easily make it to BMO faster than a Torontonian in Etobicoke, Scarborough or North York could using TTC or cars via the DVP

Lots of people would support a club in those areas if the brand/identity, location and price were right - York 9 did none of that.

I don't dispute your (or my) personal experience in the area.  You are also correct that Toronto is geographically large and so travel to a given stadium is easier for some than for others.  As a crude generality, however, I believe people in the entire area simply tend to view themselves as fans of Toronto sports teams.  (In fact, for at least the Leafs, Jays, and Raptors that area tends to extend beyond what any statistician would define as the Toronto area.)

Whether its for locals or longer distance fans, however, their support doesn't generally extend to anything other than the top tier available.

The Leafs, Jays, Raptors, TFC, Rock, and Wolfpack (before they got booted) all draw well.  At least, their attendance reflects the relative popularity of the sport rather than some other limitation.  At least half the football fans in GTA refuse to support the Argos because they pine for the higher level NFL.  The CPL and CEBL draw maybe 5% of what the higher level  team in their sport draws.  The only real exception are the Marlies who draw okay.  That probably just reflects the massive popularity of hockey, however, and even in hockey, several OHL teams have failed in the GTA.

Back to the CPL, I think the fundamental problem is Toronto's indifference to any sense of second tier.  Yes, York made some mistakes and so are drawing particularly badly.  Personally, however, I believe that even a well run CPL team with a winning record in a well placed, suitably sized stadium would still struggle to draw more than 2000 or 3000 anywhere in the GTA.

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I don't dispute your (or my) personal experience in the area.  You are also correct that Toronto is geographically large and so travel to a given stadium is easier for some than for others.  As a crude generality, however, I believe people in the entire area simply tend to view themselves as fans of Toronto sports teams.  (In fact, for at least the Leafs, Jays, and Raptors that area tends to extend beyond what any statistician would define as the Toronto area.)

Whether its for locals or longer distance fans, however, their support doesn't generally extend to anything other than the top tier available.

The Leafs, Jays, Raptors, TFC, Rock, and Wolfpack (before they got booted) all draw well.  At least, their attendance reflects the relative popularity of the sport rather than some other limitation.  At least half the football fans in GTA refuse to support the Argos because they pine for the higher level NFL.  The CPL and CEBL draw maybe 5% of what the higher level  team in their sport draws.  The only real exception are the Marlies who draw okay.  That probably just reflects the massive popularity of hockey, however, and even in hockey, several OHL teams have failed in the GTA.

Back to the CPL, I think the fundamental problem is Toronto's indifference to any sense of second tier.  Yes, York made some mistakes and so are drawing particularly badly.  Personally, however, I believe that even a well run CPL team with a winning record in a well placed, suitably sized stadium would still struggle to draw more than 2000 or 3000 anywhere in the GTA.

I'd say that TFC and Argos aren't on the same level as the Leafs, Jays or Raptors who truly enjoy a city-wide following. Argos have their demographics and TFC is more in the downtown and Lakeshore lines areas. I'd be generous to talk about midtown - never saw people with TFC merch south of Eglinton - not even St.Clair.

CPL doesn't need all of Toronto from the get go, if Woodbine is good to go they should focus on Etobicoke North & North York and work to grow organically from there. That's already around half a million people people, York 9/York United was all over the place and ended up with nothing.

I'm just saying - we can't compare. Technically, Argos are 2nd rated and yet they have decent coverage and attendance. It's not that black and white. Up to the CPL to figure it out but there's enough people around to make this work

[SoccMan]

17 hours ago, jonovision said:

I think a central stadium can be part of the recipe for success but unless it has many other tenants a stadium hosting 15-20 events a year is a very poor use of downtown space. Not a huge issue if there is no taxpayer money involved but if so count me out.

Hang on a minute no one seemed to complain when CFL stadiums were built for a team in a sport that only has 9 or maybe 10 home games . But God forbid a soccer stadium that with cup games friendlies and national team games of every age group woman and men you can be looking at over 20 dates double the amount for a CFL team . Before Forge what else was filling dates at THF ? Or the new Saskatchewan stadium or the new Winnipeg CFL stadium before Valour ? How do you justify building a stadium for mainly a team the primary tenant that only plays 9 or so home games ? But God forbid you build a stadium for soccer where you can guarantee almost 20 home games but then it’s not enough and you are forced to share with a pointy ball team and can’t have a proper more soccer friendly stadium , yes I’m looking at you BMO Field !

[SoccMan]

15 hours ago, Haligonian#1 said:

You are probably right about the Prairies... probably a reason not to locate a CPL team there. We have to be honest, soccer won't work in every market. If I was working for the CPL, I would be pushing hard for Quebec City. A properly located stadium and marketed team could likely attract average attendances in the 6,000-10,000 range.

It’s a no brainer a CPL team would work in Quebec City with a proper stadium and location, forget about Montreal for now get Quebec City done and then Montreal could come in after and draw from the Quebec City success. It boggles the mind that it hasn’t been done yet .

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by SoccMan

[SoccMan]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

You're assuming that Toronto even knows that York United even exists. Unless they rebrand as "Toronto" preferably at Woodbine once the club gets sold, YU is an anomaly and not truly a Toronto club

True no marketing whatsoever, and on the field no better really with the local talent and their disposal. Maybe Woodbine may work it’s worth a try with a proper soccer stadium. It looks like public transportation will be pretty good  in terms of getting there in the future. However , need a proper owner that markets the team so that people know they are there.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

32 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

It’s a no brainer a CPL team would work in Quebec City with a proper stadium and location, forget about Montreal for now get Quebec City done and then Montreal could come in after and draw from the Quebec City success. It boggles the mind that it hasn’t been done yet .

Two things that may be scaring investors away in Quebec City and certain other markets are that a close to $10 million expansion fee is rumoured to be involved and the league appears to be insisting on permanent stadium deals like Prairieland in Saskatoon happening before entry rather than the Wanderers Grounds pop-up sort of approach. In a Montreal context, I have seen it claimed on twitter by a Montreal sports journalist (maybe a blogger/podcaster type, unfortunately I didn't bookmark it) that there was serious interest but the league wasn't willing to accept another York style share with a U-Sports team to make it happen.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot