CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[CDNFootballer]

2591 for Vancouver FC today, bit more than I and others I went with expected with the long weekend and hot weather.

[Haligonian#1]

The match at Wanderers Ground in Halifax was sold out today.

[Kingston]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:41 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If the USL loses a team it's no big deal because there are lots of other large cities available in the United States. If a Canadian league can't make it work in the GTA and Edmonton and is looking shaky in Winnipeg there are nothing like as many alternatives available if the relatively high budget means anything smaller than 200,000 as a metro area has always been viewed as too small to be viable. 7 clubs is hugely problematic for them in scheduling terms because of the number of weeknight games that are needed and 6 might have worked for the NHL back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth but would be laughable nowadays. Bottom line is they really do need to have 8 minimum.

You have correctly identified some of the obstacles.  But so what?  Did you or anyone else think staring a pro league would be easy and all the new teams would just magically draw 10 000 fans per game?  I doubt it.  It was always going to be a challenge with some small failures on the way to success.  At this point, however, the data does not suggest we need to abandon the current approach in favour of a bus league model.  Nor, to my reading, is there any guarantee that a bus league would work as it could just see revenue drop at least as far as costs.

[CDNFootballer]

Latest attendance link that was posted on reddit :

 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

18 hours ago, Kingston said:

You have correctly identified some of the obstacles.  But so what?  Did you or anyone else think staring a pro league would be easy and all the new teams would just magically draw 10 000 fans per game?  I doubt it.  It was always going to be a challenge with some small failures on the way to success.  At this point, however, the data does not suggest we need to abandon the current approach in favour of a bus league model.  Nor, to my reading, is there any guarantee that a bus league would work as it could just see revenue drop at least as far as costs.

No idea why you think any of that addresses the point I was making in the post you responded to, which was that losing a club in an eight club Canada only league at a time when it is very difficult to add expansion teams because the bar has been set very high in terms of the economic model and stadium requirements endangers the existance of the entire league in a manner that simply isn't applicable in a USL context where losing a club genuinely is no big deal. Beyond that cutting your cloth according to the available circumstances rather than how you ideally want things to be is no more than common sense.

[Kingston]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

No idea why you think any of that addresses the point I was making in the post you responded to, which was that losing a club in an eight club Canada only league at a time when it is very difficult to add expansion teams because the bar has been set very high in terms of the economic model and stadium requirements endangers the existance of the entire league in a manner that simply isn't applicable in a USL context where losing a club genuinely is no big deal. Beyond that cutting your cloth according to the available circumstances rather than how you ideally want things to be is no more than common sense.

Three things.

First, the purpose of the CPL is to establish a fully professional league.  If it fails, that would be unfortunate, but the people involved are not interested in trying something less.  It is literally a case of go big or go home.  So any suggestion that would end up with something less will be rejected.  We have L1 for that.

Second, yes, you are correct - insisting on a fully pro league will limit the number of available markets in Canada.  I estimate something like ten to twelve viable markets, which isn't a lot for a minimum eight team league.  We need to eventually succeed in most of them for the league to work.  That is one of the constraints facing the CPL.

Third, I do not see the preponderance of evidence as suggesting we need to cut our cloth differently than we are currently trying.  That could change in the future but it isn't where we are at right now.

 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

Three things.

First, the purpose of the CPL is to establish a fully professional league.  If it fails, that would be unfortunate, but the people involved are not interested in trying something less.  It is literally a case of go big or go home...

No idea why you feel a need to explain this to me when that was pretty much precisely what I was explaining on earlier pages. What I was questioning is whether that approach is really in the best interests of the growth of Canadian soccer rather than being a high risk speculative investment play by a few rich dudes who want to tilt at windmills where MLS is concerned rather than have something a lot more mundane but enduring like the ECHL.

As things are unfolding now I seriously doubt there will be pro soccer in London, Ont any time this decade, while pro basketball has been happening with the Lightning for over a decade now sometimes drawing 5000+ with a more modest bus league sort of approach. Back around 2010 when the moratorium was put in place there was talk of FC London stepping up to USL D3 level with a small SSS being built at JPII HS at Highbury and Oxford. Now instead of PDL which they were champions of in 2012 they are following the London City trajectory in L1O because eventually the best London players lose interest in doing all the driving up and down the 401 to play in front of a few dozen friends and family of the home teams in the GTA in whatever league the OSA is trying to kid people on is semi-pro.

Given that backdrop I can't even begin to express how thrilled I am that CSB is using money drained from the CMNT and CWNT to prop up a York United team playing in front of a few hundred people to keep this whole go big or go home agenda going. People like Bob Young, Victor Montagliani and the hired help like Paul Beirne and David Clanachan truly were visionaries.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

19 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

Latest attendance link that was posted on reddit :

 

 

It’s nice to see the numbers going up for the teams still in the hunt. That’s why it’s so frustrating Pacific play all their home games to start the season though. 

[Kingston]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

No idea why you feel a need to explain this to me when that was pretty much precisely what I was explaining on earlier pages.

Mainly because you claim to understand that the organizers simply aren't interested in anything that isn't fully professional but then keep making suggestions for things they could do that aren't fully professional.

 

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What I was questioning is whether that approach is really in the best interests of the growth of Canadian soccer rather than being a high risk speculative investment play by a few rich dudes who want to tilt at windmills where MLS is concerned rather than have something a lot more mundane but enduring like the ECHL.

You're previously mentioned 2000 to 3000 as a target range for a viable bus league.

Please explain how you came up with that number.  Feel free to show some math or estimates of costs and revenue.

Right now, we have seven teams drawing over 2000 while playing at the national level of the CPL.  One active and one defunct team fail(ed) to draw 2000.  Please explain how you expect a bus league operating at a lower level to allow more and smaller markets to draw over 2000.  It seems that lowering the level of the league would tend to depress, rather than increase, attendance and that smaller markets would generally draw less well.

[Aird25]

Toronto isn't Canadian when it comes to sport though. Winning that market would be huge, but we shouldn't expect much. They seem to vision themselves as a big American city

[Watchmen]

29 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Toronto isn't Canadian when it comes to sport though. Winning that market would be huge, but we shouldn't expect much. They seem to vision themselves as a big American city

I think every "We the North/Canada's Team" advert dispells that. Rather, it's that they're more interested in only the "biggest league available" and that's typically with predominantly American teams. That same mentality exists in Vancouver.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

16 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Mainly because you claim to understand that the organizers simply aren't interested in anything that isn't fully professional but then keep making suggestions for things they could do that aren't fully professional....

Are you really suggesting that travelling by bus rather than by plane stops a league from being fully professional and do you understand the concept of changing your mind about something in light of experience? Halifax worked really well and York didn't to put it mildly, so let's replace Edmonton with drum roll wait for it another attempt to disrupt an MLS market by placing a team that's By Canadians For Canadians out in the 'burbs.

News flash for you. Vancouver FC may be distributing over 2000 tickets per game but the idea they are drawing over 2000 spectators as you appear to be claiming above is a stretch to put it mildly. A big part of why things worked well in Halifax is likely because it's the kind of mid-sized city where relatively low budget sports teams in comparison with the NHL or CFL are still viewed as a big event rather than a footnote and can potentially draw well regardless of what mode of transport they are using to travel to away games.

 

[narduch]

Haha.

It always comes back to the bus league 

[SpursFlu]

Easily the strangest forum. It's like your getting a lap dance  smoking a cigar and a couple guys keeping coming up to you and asking if you want leave and go to chucky cheese 

Edited August 9, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Are you really suggesting that travelling by bus rather than by plane stops a league from being fully professional

It's not my comment you're responding to and I know you typically ignore me and that this is by no means new information for you, but I will again presume that having a nation-wide league that is only accessible to a small corridor within the country would certainly preclude it from a degree of professionalism. This might also have an influence on revenues, and some of our best teams/markets would likely be cut out

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Are you really suggesting that travelling by bus rather than by plane stops a league from being fully professional

No.  I expect travel to be done in the way that makes the most sense.  That probably doesn't mean flying from Victoria to Vancouver.  Using bus travel as a form of overnight accommodation, however, is not fully professional.  So by all means travel by bus where warranted, but make sure your players arrive in a condition where they are fit to play as professionals.

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

do you understand the concept of changing your mind about something in light of experience?

For sure I do.  I've also expressed several times that I don't think the CPL experience so far warrants changing my mind.  And I've asked several times for you to flesh out your by asking specific questions. You have so far failed to answer any of them.

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Halifax worked really well and York didn't to put it mildly, so let's replace Edmonton with drum roll wait for it another attempt to disrupt an MLS market by placing a team that's By Canadians For Canadians out in the 'burbs.

News flash for you. Vancouver FC may be distributing over 2000 tickets per game but the idea they are drawing over 2000 spectators as you appear to be claiming above is a stretch to put it mildly. A big part of why things worked well in Halifax is likely because it's the kind of mid-sized city where relatively low budget sports teams in comparison with the NHL or CFL are still viewed as a big event rather than a footnote and can potentially draw well regardless of what mode of transport they are using to travel to away games.

I have no way of assessing the validity of any team's attendance numbers.  As a result, I'm just going with the published numbers.  If they contain fudge factors (distributed versus sold, for example) those should tend to cancel out over time.  I'm more interested in the trend than in arguing whether 3000 was actually 2800 or 3200.

As for your point about Halifax versus Vancouver, I agree.  I was leery of Vancouver being another York in an MLS market.  It doesn't look that bad but it has not been a roaring success.  That's too bad, but it hardly sinks the league.  I'd like to see the next expansion team pull a Halifax and I agree that that is more likely in a city like Quebec or possibly even Saskatoon, KW, or London for the reasons you mentioned above.  That would be validation of the idea of ownership groups changing their mind about something in the light of experience.

[jonovision]

Update. Some data quality issues, as noted below, which are annoying. Ottawa had a good crowd in their 10th home match this year (5258) but week 10 last year was even bigger (6574) which brings down their YoY number.

 

Ottawa and Forge are the true growth stories of 2023. Cavalry and Valour doing ok, though if Valour doesn't score another goal all year the crowds wil go down. Among the group with no real change, Halifax doesn't really have room to grow much and the rescheduled match hurt their average, Pacific has had a bad schedule for selling tickets (though a good one for winning games), and York is doing badly. Vancouver also probably disappointing.

Edited August 9, 2023 by jonovision

[Stanley]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Haha.

It always comes back to the bus league 

https://youtu.be/SfroUSUcbdc

[Haligonian#1]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Are you really suggesting that travelling by bus rather than by plane stops a league from being fully professional and do you understand the concept of changing your mind about something in light of experience? Halifax worked really well and York didn't to put it mildly, so let's replace Edmonton with drum roll wait for it another attempt to disrupt an MLS market by placing a team that's By Canadians For Canadians out in the 'burbs.

News flash for you. Vancouver FC may be distributing over 2000 tickets per game but the idea they are drawing over 2000 spectators as you appear to be claiming above is a stretch to put it mildly. A big part of why things worked well in Halifax is likely because it's the kind of mid-sized city where relatively low budget sports teams in comparison with the NHL or CFL are still viewed as a big event rather than a footnote and can potentially draw well regardless of what mode of transport they are using to travel to away games.

 

Halifax works well because they put the stadium in the right location. If they had put it in Shannon Park, Dartmouth Crossing, Lower Sackville, etc., It would have failed miserably. I have been a season tickets holder since 2019. This year my two season tickets cost me $1,200 combined. I would not be making that type of investment if the stadium was located on the outskirts of town.

I would bet that if the Pacific FC stadium had gone to the middle of Victoria, instead of Langford, then the team would be drawing similar crowds as Halifax. From what I have heard, the location of the stadium in Edmonton was not a great location either. Maybe that is the primary reason that the team failed.

Then you have Forge, Ottawa, and Winnipeg using CFL stadiums that lack atmosphere when you have less than 10,000 people in attendance. 

It isn't rocket science folks. If you want to replicate what Halifax has, you have to make sure that the stadium goes to the right location and is right-sized.

This is not only true for soccer, but any sports. The Expos in Montreal failed because of the Olympic Stadium. The Ottawa Senators don't do as well because of their Kanata location.

 

[MtlMario]

I do not know if it's only me but it's really annoying talking about a bus league all this time when only 1 person is calling for it. All I know is a bus league isn't going to get me too interested and btw I do not think it will change his mind.

[jonovision]

58 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

Halifax works well because they put the stadium in the right location. If they had put it in Shannon Park, Dartmouth Crossing, Lower Sackville, etc., It would have failed miserably. I have been a season tickets holder since 2019. This year my two season tickets cost me $1,200 combined. I would not be making that type of investment if the stadium was located on the outskirts of town.

I would bet that if the Pacific FC stadium had gone to the middle of Victoria, instead of Langford, then the team would be drawing similar crowds as Halifax. From what I have heard, the location of the stadium in Edmonton was not a great location either. Maybe that is the primary reason that the team failed.

Then you have Forge, Ottawa, and Winnipeg using CFL stadiums that lack atmosphere when you have less than 10,000 people in attendance. 

It isn't rocket science folks. If you want to replicate what Halifax has, you have to make sure that the stadium goes to the right location and is right-sized.

This is not only true for soccer, but any sports. The Expos in Montreal failed because of the Olympic Stadium. The Ottawa Senators don't do as well because of their Kanata location.

 

I think a central stadium can be part of the recipe for success but unless it has many other tenants a stadium hosting 15-20 events a year is a very poor use of downtown space. Not a huge issue if there is no taxpayer money involved but if so count me out.

[JamboAl]

League 1 Ontario is a bus league and it doesn’t draw great, nor is it professional.  I really like the L1O and attend at least one match a season even though the closest team is 3 hrs away.  But let’s not kid ourselves, how do you get from Winnipeg to anywhere by bus and still call yourself professional.  If we are going to have a bus league in this country as our Division 1, then I’d almost rather not have one.

[Haligonian#1]

1 hour ago, jonovision said:

I think a central stadium can be part of the recipe for success but unless it has many other tenants a stadium hosting 15-20 events a year is a very poor use of downtown space. Not a huge issue if there is no taxpayer money involved but if so count me out.

(1) CPL has 15 home matches minimum a year. CFL has 9 home matches. Yet no one seems to blink an eye when one of those monstrosities is built. A 5,000-10,000 seat soccer specific stadium also cost much less than a 30,000 seat CFL stadium.

(2) Soccer is an ascending sport in Canada and responds well to Canada's growing diversity. Football, not as much.

(3) The Wanderers Ground in Halifax are also used for a couple of rugby matches a year, which have a strong following in Halifax (usually sold-out matches). They have used it for other events.

I understand your aversion for using taxpayers money on stadiums. However, governments spend a lot of money on other things that not everyone uses, e.g. museums, symphony halls, art galleries, libraries, and airports. I myself am not opposed to those things and see the benefits. But it would be hard for me to argue that the City of Halifax and the Government of Nova Scotia shouldn't be contributing to a stadium when they were both contributing to a new Art Gallery of Nova Scotia that pre-Covid had been costed out at $120-140 million dollars. A soccer specific stadium would cost much less than that in Halifax, but would certainly generate much more traffic.

[jonovision]

1 minute ago, Haligonian#1 said:

(1) CPL has 15 home matches minimum a year. CFL has 9 home matches. Yet no one seems to blink an eye when one of those monstrosities is built. A 5,000-10,000 seat soccer specific stadium also cost much less than a 30,000 seat CFL stadium.

There have been 3 new stadiums built in the CFL in the last 40 years. I don't know about Regina or Hamilton but I do know there were plenty of complaints, many blinking eyes, about government money being spent on IG Field in Winnipeg.

3 minutes ago, Haligonian#1 said:

(2) Soccer is an ascending sport in Canada and responds well to Canada's growing diversity. Football, not as much.

Very much varies from city to city. I'd be shocked if soccer surpassed football in the prairies any time in the next 3 or 4 decades

I would like a right-sized and located stadium (not necessarily soccer specific) in each CPL city, but costs should be considered. And I don't think the venue makes the ultimate difference between success and failure.

[Haligonian#1]

30 minutes ago, jonovision said:

There have been 3 new stadiums built in the CFL in the last 40 years. I don't know about Regina or Hamilton but I do know there were plenty of complaints, many blinking eyes, about government money being spent on IG Field in Winnipeg.

Very much varies from city to city. I'd be shocked if soccer surpassed football in the prairies any time in the next 3 or 4 decades

I would like a right-sized and located stadium (not necessarily soccer specific) in each CPL city, but costs should be considered. And I don't think the venue makes the ultimate difference between success and failure.

I disagree, location makes all the difference. I personally think that not paying enough attention to the choice of stadium location is one of the main issues regarding attendance in the CPL, the other one being co-locating in MLS markets.