CPL 2023 Season Attendance

[soccerlife]

Thank you for the reasonable post above Kingston. Accurate too.

I have read through these threads and not responded. I too see the negative twist to all things CPL from OP. One other aspect that should be considered is the covid years. The league started in 2019 then faced two seasons of starting over basically. Last year was trying to get back to normal. People still shy to attend. Really, in my view, this year is the second year with almost like starting over. Teams likely had to pare down on expenses to survive. I do understand that some teams aren’t big spenders in the first place. 

It is not willful blindness to toot the horn and say this is going in the right direction for the most part. WE HAVE A LEAGUE! I don’t see some posters wearing rose coloured glasses and not seeing reality. Nothing wrong with cheering on the creation and hopeful success of our very own league. We have to start somewhere. And sorry a bus league is not it. All the League One’s throughout the country are that. Nothing wrong with pushing for greatness. I used to tell my children when they were teenagers “ shoot for the stars, at the very least you will hit the moon”. And isn’t that scaling new heights? 
Bravo to the CPL and all who have helped to build it with positivity and courage. Owners and supporters included😇.

Edited July 28, 2023 by soccerlife

[Bison44]

Bless you guys for trying to have civil discourse with bird droppings.  See how it goes and see if he returns the courtesy to you. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Here are a couple of points to ponder, ignore or spew semi-coherent bile at as the case may be. Firstly, if we are talking about what has unfolded with FC Edmonton and York United in a CanPL attendance thread where would positivity end and delusion begin if you are in the business of relentlessly pushing a narrative of inevitable growth and success for this league?

When the Baldassarra family handed back the keys to the other CSB investors the Onesoccer panel coverage of what had just happened was completely unable to address any of the issues related to the abject failure of these clubs to generate a viable level of spectator interest head on because to do so would be to enter forbidden territory that could cost them their jobs. A fan messageboard isn't an extension of the league's PR efforts so there should be no expection that everbody on here should remain in the realm of delusion talking only about how wonderful the emperor's clothes are.

Secondly, it's important to bear in mind that most of the key CanPL investors like Dean Shillington, the Southam family at Spruce Meadows, the Blue Bombers primarily in the shape of Wade Miller, Bob Young and Derek Martin are not what you could sensibly described as soccer people and are hence not necessarily driven by an agenda that revolves what's best for Canadian soccer rather than their own bank balance and in most cases building inter-generational wealth for their families.

These people looked at the growth of franchise values that TFC experienced from 2007 onwards and hired Paul Beirne because they wanted a piece of that action. They were facilitated in making that decision by Victor Montagliani selling out the interests of other key stakeholders in Canadian soccer like the national team programs with the frankly fiscally crazy CSB deal. Even with that subsidy in place though there is a genuine risk that this league will ultimately be discarded like a used prophylactic, if a significant portion of a tiny handful of money people involved in this venture come to the conclusion that this isn't a sensible long term investment strategy for themselves.

Given that backdrop it is perfectly reasonable for people who are primarily motivated by what is in the best interests of Canadian soccer to not adopt a blind faith sort of approach to the emergence of this league. It should be a red flag when somebody who is as soccer through and through as John Pugh of the Ottawa Fury doesn't want to touch it with a bargepole, and when a former CSL and national youth team player with lots of business experience like Joe Belan is marginalized and has his Saskatchewan Summer Soccer Series pretty much completely ignored by CanPL because he had a different vision of how to proceed with the league.

The relatively high budget approach pushed by Bob Young & Co was not the only one that could have been pursued where the launch of a domestic pro league structure was concerned. It is perfectly reasonable, therefore, for concerned fans to question whether the strategies being followed with the CSB deal at the moment are really the best way ahead for Canadian soccer or whether they are more about the speculative investment strategies of a few rich dudes to enhance their own net worth. Fans of Canadian soccer are not obligated to support anything and everything CanPL does and act like the sun shines out of Bob Young's posterior. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

What was the attendance for the Forge game last night?

[Aird25]

Deleted

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Aird25

[jonovision]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The relatively high budget approach pushed by Bob Young & Co was not the only one that could have been pursued where the launch of a domestic pro league structure was concerned.

It may not be, but I fail to see how a bus league model raises the level much beyond what we already have with the various L1s. And selfishly, a prairie (MB/SK) League 1 at any decent level is a total impossibility, so I very much prefer they took a big swing they still may miss than reining in their ambitions, as I like going to the games.

[Cicero]

I don't know what the official number was for last night, but it was a good attendance night. Particularly for a Friday that was 32 C and very humid. Attendance has been consistently better this season than last. The club seat section hasn't matched season one numbers I would guess, but overall, I'd say this must be the best season yet for Forge attendance. The freebie opener skewed season one's average.

[Ansem]

 

[MrR]

2. Bundesliga - 2022-23 Attendance figures (capacity - spectators - average)

Total:	0	6.812.715	22.263
1	Volksparkstadion Hamburger SV	57.000	908.982	53.470
2	Fritz-Walter-Stadion 1.FC Kaiserslautern	49.350	688.316	40.489
3	Heinz-von-Heiden-Arena Hannover 96	49.000	526.200	30.953
4	Max-Morlock-Stadion 1.FC Nuremberg	50.000	515.797	30.341
5	MERKUR SPIEL-ARENA Fortuna Düsseldorf	54.600	502.903	29.583
6	Millerntor-Stadion FC St. Pauli	29.546	499.072	29.357
7	Ostseestadion FC Hansa Rostock	29.000	419.400	24.671
8	MDCC-Arena 1.FC Magdeburg	30.098	384.242	22.602
9	SchücoArena Arminia Bielefeld	27.332	369.549	21.738
10	EINTRACHT-Stadion Eintracht Braunschweig	23.325	328.238	19.308
11	BBBank Wildpark Karlsruher SC	26.000	320.272	18.840
12	Merck-Stadion am Böllenfalltor SV Darmstadt 98	17.500	266.649	15.685
13	Holstein-Stadion Holstein Kiel	15.034	209.312	12.312
14	Home Deluxe Arena SC Paderborn 07	15.000	207.458	12.203
15	Sportpark Ronhof | Thomas Sommer SpVgg Greuther Fürth	16.626	190.968	11.233
16	Voith-Arena 1.FC Heidenheim 1846	15.000	188.808	11.106
17	Jahnstadion Regensburg SSV Jahn Regensburg	15.210	182.844	10.756
18	BWT-Stadion am Hardtwald SV Sandhausen	15.414	103.705	6.100

Edited July 31, 2023 by MrR

[Kingston]

On 7/29/2023 at 9:34 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Firstly, if we are talking about what has unfolded with FC Edmonton and York United in a CanPL attendance thread where would positivity end and delusion begin if you are in the business of relentlessly pushing a narrative of inevitable growth and success for this league?

Edmonton is gone and York is probably going.  I'm not aware of anyone arguing otherwise.  I'm also not aware of anyone who seriously expected the CPL to launch a whole bunch of new teams without some failures.  That would be completely unrealistic.  That said, the overall trend of the league right now is toward growth and success.  A situation of general success despite some failure is actually pretty normal in most human endeavours.

On 7/29/2023 at 9:34 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Secondly, it's important to bear in mind that most of the key CanPL investors ... are not what you could sensibly described as soccer people and are hence not necessarily driven by an agenda that revolves what's best for Canadian soccer rather than their own bank balance and in most cases building inter-generational wealth for their families.

These people looked at the growth of franchise values that TFC experienced from 2007 onwards and hired Paul Beirne because they wanted a piece of that action...Even with that subsidy in place though there is a genuine risk that this league will ultimately be discarded like a used prophylactic, if a significant portion of a tiny handful of money people involved in this venture come to the conclusion that this isn't a sensible long term investment strategy for themselves.

It is true that the success of the Canadian MLS teams interested people in giving the CPL a shot.  Although I doubt any of them expect MLS level numbers, I imagine they do want to see profitability and, ideally, a long term increase in franchise value.  As a fan I want the same thing because I want the CPL to be financially stable on its own, not rely on sugar daddy owners.  That said, this is the long term goal and the trends are positive in the majority of markets.

On 7/29/2023 at 9:34 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The relatively high budget approach pushed by Bob Young & Co was not the only one that could have been pursued where the launch of a domestic pro league structure was concerned. It is perfectly reasonable, therefore, for concerned fans to question whether the strategies being followed with the CSB deal at the moment are really the best way ahead for Canadian soccer or whether they are more about the speculative investment strategies of a few rich dudes to enhance their own net worth. Fans of Canadian soccer are not obligated to support anything and everything CanPL does and act like the sun shines out of Bob Young's posterior. 

You are perfectly correct that fans are entitled to question things and I know that you've previously advocated a bus league approach instead of the current approach.  Personally, I think a bus league CPL actually has less chance of success as a national league than what we have now.  I think it would end up as a glorified L1 at too low a level to improve Canada's soccer pyramid.  But, please, lay out your thoughts on a bus league version with as much specificity as possible and we can discuss it.

[SpursFlu]

It's nice to see such good attendance this year. Looks like we'll have a tight playoff race, a Champions league spot up for grabs and then of course playoffs. So I expect that number to increase even more

Should smash last years attendance numbers. I think a realistic goal now is to end the year with 4k average attendance. That would be a big accomplishment. Great work everyone 

Edited July 31, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Kent]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:08 AM, SpursFlu said:

It's nice to see such good attendance this year. Looks like we'll have a tight playoff race, a Champions league spot up for grabs and then of course playoffs. So I expect that number to increase even more

Should smash last years attendance numbers. I think a realistic goal now is to end the year with 4k average attendance. That would be a big accomplishment. Great work everyone 

Yes, good attendance this year overall. The tight playoff race and the Champions League spots and the new playoff format have me excited as well. There could very well be an increase in attendance in the run in.

If my math is correct, to average 4k this season, the rest of the way the league would need to average 4384 per game. That's a tough number, but maybe not entirely impossible, especially if a team like Ottawa can grab a really big number (like 10k or something) for a late game that has big playoff implications. For what it's worth, there have been 3 weeks (again, this is actually my 4 game chunks of games, which doesn't line up perfectly with weeks) that have averaged over 4384, out of the 15 4-game-chunks I have all attendance data for.

While looking that up, I just noticed that the 4-game-chunk that ended with HFX vs Forge on June 30th actually outdrew the opening weekend of the season. Opening weekend was a 5090 average, and the June 30th weekend drew 5375. The June 30th weekend got the edge because the lowest attended game was 4k, but in the opening weekend there was a York game that only drew 1400.

[Kingston]

9 hours ago, Kent said:

If my math is correct, to average 4k this season, the rest of the way the league would need to average 4384 per game. That's a tough number, but maybe not entirely impossible,

It's made extra difficult when we have York dropping 1000 on the attendance calculation every time they play.  Given York's likely fate, however, it's almost worth calculating the league's non-York average, unfortunately.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Kingston said:

It's made extra difficult when we have York dropping 1000 on the attendance calculation every time they play.  Given York's likely fate, however, it's almost worth calculating the league's non-York average, unfortunately.

Easy enough for me to exclude the York numbers, despite my table not actually showing where the games are played, since York's highest attended game is below 2k, and no other team has had even 1 game below 2k attendance. The average attendance in a hypothetical world where York United have already folded is 4073.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Dropping to seven would mess up the schedule big time so think we could still see them again next season running on a shoestring budget with lots of loan signings from elsewhere. From what I understand Vancouver FC almost happened at the end of the 2019 season but Atletico Ottawa ultimately took the eighth slot instead. That option was waiting in the wings to provide the plan B for FC Edmonton, but it's not so clear what's available to replace York given the way Saskatoon has fallen off the radar and Windsor appears to have been pretty much DoA.

On 7/31/2023 at 3:53 PM, Kingston said:

...But, please, lay out your thoughts on a bus league version with as much specificity as possible and we can discuss it.

Already did several times and have repeatedly pointed people in the direction of junior hockey, the ECHL and minor league baseball, but don't remember much in the way of sensible discussion. Let's get real. The economic model that is in place isn't about what is most likely to provide a better development pathway for Canadian soccer by puttering along in the background from decade to decade junior hockey style, it was all about the optics of being Canada's D1 in reality rather than just rhetoric and having a licence to print money on expansion fees if the league took off in a big way and franchise values rose like those in MLS did.

Bob Young & Co appear to have secretly hoped that they were going to be able to force the three MLS franchises into their league, if they were the ones feeding Duane Rollins' narrative in podcasts back pre-launch. Not much point using all those CFL stadia otherwise, but strongly suspect it was always a pipe dream for legal reasons before we even get into how likely York 9 ever was to be a success, which was somewhere between exceedingly slim and none. But hey they hired Paul Beirne no doubt because they thought he was the marketing whizz who made TFC a success rather than a junior MLSE employee from the Raptors who wound up in the right place at the right time when the Beckham signing happened likely because other more senior people viewed a TFC front office job as a hospital ball in career terms.

[SpursFlu]

If you look at the numbers a 10% increase in league attendance is within reach. Really amazing 

If only Winnipeg wasn't always losing. I think if they had a top team a 10% increase in attendance is a very realistic scenario. I know the big stadium is tough but I see real potential there

If playoff games can catch nice weather who knows, maybe a 4k average is possible 

Messi v Forge in 2024 Champions Cup lol that might help attendance also

Edited August 3, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Kingston]

40 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Already did several times and have repeatedly pointed people in the direction of junior hockey, the ECHL and minor league baseball, but don't remember much in the way of sensible discussion. Let's get real. The economic model that is in place isn't about what is most likely to provide a better development pathway for Canadian soccer by puttering along in the background from decade to decade junior hockey style, it was all about the optics of being Canada's D1 in reality rather than just rhetoric and having a licence to print money on expansion fees if the league took off in a big way and franchise values rose like those in MLS did.

I'd be very happy if the CPL took off like MLS, but I don't expect it and don't really care if the owners get massive expansion fees or not.  I do want to see a Canadian D1 league, which is what the CPL is about.

I terms of developing Canadian talent, I think the CPL is well positioned.  We have a solid and growing D3.  We have three MLS teams, other MLS teams nearby, and players going to various places in Europe for our higher level professionals.  What we were missing before the CPL was an entry level professional opportunity with broad geographic representation across the country.  The CPL fills that role well.  

The CHL, which you reference, is the only stand alone minor league in Canada that has seen success.  Almost everything else that wasn't top tier has either been literal farms teams or folded.  And even many top tier teams in less popular sports like rugby and lacrosse have folded.

The CHL is a regional bus league.  It doesn't pay its players but does have significant education costs because it funds  post-secondary education for alumni for one year for each year played.  According to the CHL website, the 60 teams drew over 8.5 million fans last season.  With a 64 game season, that's an average of 4100 per game.  In reality, there is a broad disparity among teams.  Team averages range from 9000 to 1500.  A handful of teams do well financially and many struggle badly.  Franchise changes are not uncommon.

Soccer is not as popular as hockey in Canada.  This is more noticeably in smaller population centres.  So attendance is lower for soccer teams than for hockey.  As a result, there are far fewer viable markets for soccer teams than for hockey teams.

Obviously, this can be overcome by lowering the level of the league but, at some point, this no longer meets the target.  L1O has 21 bus league teams.  It is excellent as a D3 league, but no one will confuse it with a national, professional league.  

I don't think a bus league is an option for professional soccer in Canada because there aren't enough sufficiently strong markets to support pro soccer in close enough proximity to allow bus travel.  We must either go higher level than a bus league to be professional or have a non-pro bus league.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

From what I understand Vancouver FC almost happened at the end of the 2019 season

Where would they have even played in 2020?

For all those detractors of CPL I think it's important to look at the alternatives. MLS basically gave the entirety of the region CPL covers to the Whitecaps, and they haven't exactly produced a lot of talent since. CPL has already done substantially more with a more limited budget. A bus league wouldn't be able to cover that territory

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Kingston said:

...I don't think a bus league is an option for professional soccer in Canada because there aren't enough sufficiently strong markets to support pro soccer in close enough proximity to allow bus travel...

Ever heard of the Windsor-Quebec corridor? Windsor, London, K-W, St Catherines, Hamiton, Brampton, Barrie, Oshawa, Ottawa, Laval, Sherbrooke, Quebec City.

[longlugan]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Ever heard of the Windsor-Quebec corridor? Windsor, London, K-W, St Catherines, Hamiton, Brampton, Barrie, Oshawa, Ottawa, Laval, Sherbrooke, Quebec City.

God you're dumb.

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Ever heard of the Windsor-Quebec corridor? Windsor, London, K-W, St Catherines, Hamiton, Brampton, Barrie, Oshawa, Ottawa, Laval, Sherbrooke, Quebec City.

I have.  It's the most populous region of Canada holding about half the population.

Of the cities in the corridor, I think Ottawa,  Hamilton, and Quebec could definitely hold successful CPL teams while KW and London have a chance.  The rest are either too small or too close to MLS teams.

It's 1000 km from London to Quebec City and not a lot shorter from KW or Hamilton. 

So you've got three - maybe five - teams of the minimum eight needed for a league.  And the drive is getting pretty long for the trips to Quebec.  I think it's pretty optimistic to expect this to be one section of the bus league.

In the rest of the country, suitable cities are even fewer and farther apart.

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Ever heard of the Windsor-Quebec corridor? Windsor, London, K-W, St Catherines, Hamiton, Brampton, Barrie, Oshawa, Ottawa, Laval, Sherbrooke, Quebec City.

Even if that worked as a bus league, it cuts off a massive part of the country including many of our most successful teams. It could hardly be considered a national league anyways, so I don't see why this would be an objective

[Bison44]

Its such a good idea we already have L10 and PLSQ and they seem to be doing well working with the CPL.  And we have already moved past that to L1BC and onto L1AB etc etc etc.  Almost like a CHL network of D-3 leagues.  SO why do we need CPL to downgrade?  Why not try and make CPL work as a national cross country league between D-3 bus leagues and multi million dollar payroll MLS, which is not coming to anymore CDN cities??  

[Kingston]

15 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Even if that worked as a bus league, it cuts off a massive part of the country including many of our most successful teams. It could hardly be considered a national league anyways, so I don't see why this would be an objective

The idea Ozzie has forwarded is a national league made up of regional bus leagues like the CHL.  So, to be entirely fair to his idea, this would be just one section of the entire national league.

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Kingston said:

The idea Ozzie has forwarded is a national league made up of regional bus leagues like the CHL.  So, to be entirely fair to his idea, this would be just one section of the entire national league.

What he is pining for is essentially what League 1 Canada is becoming 

So in a round about way he got his wish

Edited August 4, 2023 by narduch