CONCACAF Nations League 2023/2024 - Group Stage & ¼finals - General Thread

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

So it could be in the USA.

Could they fit 3 matches into the window for a round robin?

If not, then why a central venue and not two seperate home & away matches? 🤔

 

They probably want to bundle it all in the same location so they can make an event out of it. I expect it to be like the WC 2022 intercontinental playoffs where both games are in the same place and it's just one-and-done.

@Watchmen This brings me to another reason why we want to qualify for the final round, aside from qualifying for Copa America and getting the chance to compete for the NL trophy. If we are forced to go the losers route that's one less game we'll have that window - assuming we don't play a friendly - which is a safe assumption given our track record of late.

[Watchmen]

56 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I get the sentiment that it's a qualifier first in the eyes of many (myself included), but a few things on the bolded part of your post:

Firstly, winning this tournament and playing in Copa America aren't mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand, because if we are lifting that NL trophy in March we are playing in Copa America in the summer. I know you know that, but I am stating the obvious here because (I feel like) in this scenario everyone (including casuals) will only care about the trophy win, as qualification will already be in the bag. By the time March rolls around Copa America qualifying will be old news and the attention will be on lifting silverware.

Secondly, there is no guarantee we play a Brazil or Argentina. It could be the USA or Mexico and a few lesser known SA sides like Paraguay or Venezuela, which wouldn't move the needle as much. Not saying it won't be important to play those teams or play in the tournament, because it will be.

I appreciate for many people NL is an afterthought, but I guess my angle here is that we shouldn't just forget about it and we as fans should keep the pressure on this team to qualify for that final in March. We shouldn't get to casual about losing to Jamaica just because we have a second route to Copa America, because we NEED silverware to get to the next level. That's my angle.

I get what you're saying, but I think it's more a case of treating it like it's Copa America qualifying (ie quality for probably the 3rd biggest national team tournament on the planet) rather than as an NL game. If they win in November (and they should, though it's far from a guarantee) then we can all pivot to cheering them on in the semis of the NL. If they lose, I'll be less upset at them not being in the semis as I will be about them having to go to the final round of Copa qualifying. Which to me would be higher pressure than the NL semi finals even if the opposition would be worse.

And while it would be 50/50 on actually playing either Brazil or Argentina, Canada just participating in the same tournament as them would bring casual viewers in.

[Ruffian]

No Eustáquio in the image...

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

6 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

No Eustáquio in the image...

There was no Sinclair on the #CanWNT branding for this month, but she is still on the roster.

[Obinna]

40 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I get what you're saying, but I think it's more a case of treating it like it's Copa America qualifying (ie quality for probably the 3rd biggest national team tournament on the planet) rather than as an NL game. If they win in November (and they should, though it's far from a guarantee) then we can all pivot to cheering them on in the semis of the NL. If they lose, I'll be less upset at them not being in the semis as I will be about them having to go to the final round of Copa qualifying. Which to me would be higher pressure than the NL semi finals even if the opposition would be worse.

And while it would be 50/50 on actually playing either Brazil or Argentina, Canada just participating in the same tournament as them would bring casual viewers in.

Appreciate the response but I don't really get your mindset here....

If they lose you will be more upset they botched their first chance to qualify for Copa America than they botched their chance to play for a trophy?

To me it's the reverse. They get 2 chances to qualify for Copa America. They get one chance to play qualify for the NL finals. Now, I suppose we could shrug our shoulders as there is always another edition, but it's hard for me to have that attitude when this team hasn't won anything since 2000. We have to capitalize on the generational talent (Davies and David specifically) and thus every time we don't get to a final it's a big opportunity lost.

The other thing for me is this....should they fail twice to qualify for Copa America I don't even know how upset I would be, because at that point I would probably be convinced we just frankly don't deserve it.

The nightmare would be if we had to face one of Costa Rica or Panama, as in a one-off I am less confident and in truth they are on our level.

[El Diego]

1 hour ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

There was no Sinclair on the #CanWNT branding for this month, but she is still on the roster.

This forum always reads way too much into promo graphics

[Watchmen]

58 minutes ago, Obinna said:

If they lose you will be more upset they botched their first chance to qualify for Copa America than they botched their chance to play for a trophy?

Yes. Maybe that's because I don't really think of the NL as that meaningful beyond additional games. Again, if we win I'll be happy. But honestly I was more upset at the way Canada played in the past final than actually losing it (as it seemed to he an indication not everything was right with the team). Gold Cup final would be a different discussion.

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

The other thing for me is this....should they fail twice to qualify for Copa America I don't even know how upset I would be, because at that point I would probably be convinced we just frankly don't deserve it.

The nightmare would be if we had to face one of Costa Rica or Panama, as in a one-off I am less confident and in truth they are on our level.

I don't disagree that if they fail twice they don't deserve to be there, I just think that's a much bigger missed opportunity than an NL final. And as you say, the nightmare scenario of Panama or Costa Rica on a one-off is worse than Jamaica home and away.

[Stryker911]

How did it not come out what the final playoff matchups will be? Is it a fixed bracket? Is it based on current CONCACAF seedings, November rankings... 

I only need to know because I have very little faith in our team's current state.

[Obinna]

41 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yes. Maybe that's because I don't really think of the NL as that meaningful beyond additional games. Again, if we win I'll be happy. But honestly I was more upset at the way Canada played in the past final than actually losing it (as it seemed to he an indication not everything was right with the team). Gold Cup final would be a different discussion.

I don't disagree that if they fail twice they don't deserve to be there, I just think that's a much bigger missed opportunity than an NL final. And as you say, the nightmare scenario of Panama or Costa Rica on a one-off is worse than Jamaica home and away.

Yeah I get that and fair enough. Goes a long way in explaining your perspective if you don't value NL games and view them as nothing more than glorified friendlies. I suppose my view is different because I do view them as being important, in fact just as important as Gold Cup, if not moreso with the trend of teams sending B squads.

Another virtue of NL is the fact it's not entirely in the USA which could be improved further by rotating the Final venue (which I thought was supposed to happen but so far hasn't). The format and the tendency to pick your best squad make it the truest measure of who the best team is in the region.

In an ideal world the Gold Cup would have more prestige than the NL, but it's become a joke tournament with USA forever hosting it and now sending B squads the last two editions. I get the financial reasons but its a disgrace from a competitive standpoint and it's good they lost the last one, because sending a B team and winning twice in a row, as host, would really be a bad look for the event, at least in my opinion.

[Kent]

Re: NL QF vs Copa America qualifying. I look at it this way. What would be the bigger hypothetical game. Would it be a Copa America play in game (if we lose the QFs to Jamaica), or would it be the Nations League semi final game (if we win the QFs over Jamaica). To me, although I love the Nations League (less so with the stupid format for League A this season) the bigger game would be the Copa America play in game.

Either way, I've got my ticket for November 21st. I would get it if it was strictly one competition or the other, but we are lucky enough that it is both.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Kent said:

Re: NL QF vs Copa America qualifying. I look at it this way. What would be the bigger hypothetical game. Would it be a Copa America play in game (if we lose the QFs to Jamaica), or would it be the Nations League semi final game (if we win the QFs over Jamaica). To me, although I love the Nations League (less so with the stupid format for League A this season) the bigger game would be the Copa America play in game.

Either way, I've got my ticket for November 21st. I would get it if it was strictly one competition or the other, but we are lucky enough that it is both.

That makes sense in isolation. Qualifying for the Copa America trumps qualifying for the CONCACAF NL finals.

In reality I don't look at it in isolation, because if we are playing in the semi final we already had our qualifier and succeeded.

I respect the perspective though. If worse comes to worse and we play that match I will keep this in mind.

[narduch]

I honestly don't share in the Voyageurs anxiety over Jamaica. 

I watched a bit of their games in the group stage and they are not that great.

Everyone sees they have a few EPL players and freaks out

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

8 hours ago, narduch said:

I honestly don't share in the Voyageurs anxiety over Jamaica. 

I watched a bit of their games in the group stage and they are not that great.

Everyone sees they have a few EPL players and freaks out

I watch their Premier League and Championship (to a lesser extent) players a fair bit. Their is real quality there.  Obviously.

They have been let down, whether by management or circumstance or both.  In my opinion they need to pick a team that wants to be there regularly and get better continuity, even if that means sacrificing a few names and the quality that comes with them.

I love Antonio for instance (again for obvious reasons) and he can be unplayable at Premier League level let alone CONCACAF but his body (and sometimes spirit) is not always willing at this point.

Hard not to pick players like him but might need to look beyond them to make a real team.

[costarg]

8 hours ago, narduch said:

I honestly don't share in the Voyageurs anxiety over Jamaica. 

I watched a bit of their games in the group stage and they are not that great.

Everyone sees they have a few EPL players and freaks out

If we're playing the match on paper, then sure we're stronger and the scale tilts to our side.  The issue is they are perfectly built to give us serious problems.  Their strength is our biggest and obvious weakness.

[Vasi]

I'll be taking my 7yo daughter to this game. Hope that we win and have her fandom beguin with a win. Would not want the next generation of fans starting off as masochists.

[Ottawafan]

9 hours ago, narduch said:

I honestly don't share in the Voyageurs anxiety over Jamaica. 

I watched a bit of their games in the group stage and they are not that great.

Everyone sees they have a few EPL players and freaks out

At some point they will put it together.  Would rather it not be against us.

[Unnamed Trialist]

59 minutes ago, costarg said:

If we're playing the match on paper, then sure we're stronger and the scale tilts to our side.  The issue is they are perfectly built to give us serious problems.  Their strength is our biggest and obvious weakness.

I was watching PSG away to Clermont Ferrand, a modest Ligue 1 side, and they have the striker Nicholson, who I liked a lot. Mind you Clermont played well and PSG not so much, but I am not even sure Nicholson figures for the Jamaican NT. So they have nice depth and some pieces that could give us problems. 

I think we are quite a bit more complete and have far more variations if everyone is healthy.

[Obinna]

9 hours ago, narduch said:

I honestly don't share in the Voyageurs anxiety over Jamaica. 

I watched a bit of their games in the group stage and they are not that great.

Everyone sees they have a few EPL players and freaks out

I mean yeah that's true, but it's those players who can change a game with a moment of magic, specifically Bailey and Gray, and to a lesser extent Antonio and Cordova-Ried. We have players on our side who can do the same, but we are not in form and won't be prepared and (most of all) Jamaica is a team that can neutralize the pace of our wide players. If this was a Canada side that was firing on all cylinders I wouldn't care who we drew, but we aren't so I am feeling anxious over it.

I felt anxious over us playing Suriname last cycle too, so there's that 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, Vasi said:

I'll be taking my 7yo daughter to this game. Hope that we win and have her fandom beguin with a win. Would not want the next generation of fans starting off as masochists.

So you are basically disrespecting long-standing traditions.   

[Shway]

12 hours ago, narduch said:

I honestly don't share in the Voyageurs anxiety over Jamaica. 

I watched a bit of their games in the group stage and they are not that great.

Everyone sees they have a few EPL players and freaks out

Its not an anxiety, but a reality that out of the lot, they match us the best.
I also keep hammering that we haven't played the "new" Jamaica yet, and there is a greater sense of togetherness from what we know about Jamaica. With each passing window they continue to get continuity between their players and have developed a core (especially in attack). 

Nicholson, Antonio, Reid, Gray, Bailey...aren't just good on paper, they've been playing well together since the gold cup. 

Their midfield issues have been somewhat sorted with Lattiboudieaire coming into the team (who's been solid), allowing them to be less dependent on Johnson doing defensive efforts. 

@WestHamCanadianinOxford

I don't know if you watched this last round of games, but Antonio was a beast for them. Although he didn't score, the route 1 balls he was on, and able to hold up and connecting play with Gray and Bailey contributed was the reason (assists he got) for a few of their goals. 

They aren't the fake threat that Suriname, or Haiti was....they are a real contender to take serious.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Shway

[Obinna]

I don't know if we talked about this yet, but how do we feel about hosting the second leg?

Personally I think it makes sense. Since we are coming in cold in all liklihood, it's probably best to try scrap out a result away while we get our legs under us, rather than be sloppy and scrappy at BMO. If we can then come back home where we are comfortable and less cold (weather aside), we are more likely to be firing instead of working out kinks.

I think someone else mentioned, but we are better when we have had a run of games, so playing away first maybe helps get the best out of us at home. 

[MtlMario]

Also playing first game at home you only travel once between games.

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I don't know if we talked about this yet, but how do we feel about hosting the second leg?

Personally I think it makes sense. Since we are coming in cold in all liklihood, it's probably best to try scrap out a result away while we get our legs under us, rather than be sloppy and scrappy at BMO. If we can then come back home where we are comfortable and less cold (weather aside), we are more likely to be firing instead of working out kinks.

I think someone else mentioned, but we are better when we have had a run of games, so playing away first maybe helps get the best out of us at home. 

 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

I don't know if we talked about this yet, but how do we feel about hosting the second leg? 

90% chance that we will do the usual thing, (that we did with the #CanWNT in September, who were in an identical situation). Training camp in the Ft. Lauderdale area before flying to Jamaica the night before.

Jamaica are in fact in a weird position. Domestic and USL/MLS players that are free will all fly to the NYC area. Play on Saturday. Fly back to Kingston as a group where the other players will join them. Or perhaps the other players will join the first group in NYC and then everyone flies south? Either way, they've got some North➡️South➡️North travel to do.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, MtlMario said:

Also playing first game at home you only travel once between games.

 

That's a good point I hadn't considered, but I guess it's kind of moot in our case. I assume we gather in Miami or Orlando, so flying there from Europe versus Toronto doesn't really make a lot of difference. 

[Vasi]

4 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

So you are basically disrespecting long-standing traditions.   

Lol

What can I tell you. Never been a traditionalist.