CONCACAF Nations League Finals 2023 - General Thread - June 15th & 18th

[king1010]

Over on US Soccer reddit, they're saying there shouldn't be any issues in defeating Canada without Mckennie and Dest as the USA B team should easily handle Canada. 

[Shway]

1 minute ago, king1010 said:

Over on US Soccer reddit, they're saying there shouldn't be any issues in defeating Canada without Mckennie and Dest as the USA B team should easily handle Canada. 

we are the definite underdogs....and thats fine. 
Let the pressure be on them.

[TOcanadafan]

10 hours ago, eramosat said:

the chant by Mexican fans upsets me zero. both today and historically.

to me, it has nothing to do with red-zone homophobia concerns, and everything to do with a misguided but innocent tradition.  

So tired of this argument.  Let’s stand behind cultural tradition or religion to justify practices which are hateful and just wrong.  It’s like hearing the “Eeny Meeny Miny Mo” nursery rhyme and brushing it off by saying it’s just some kids singing a song.  
 

And why do fans cheering for Mexico seem to get away with throwing things at players on the field each game?  This is also becoming a disturbing automatic at every Mexico-US game.

Mexico soccer culture, for all its passion and tradition, is at an ugly state right now.  You hear that players themselves have reservations about putting on the jersey.  From the vicious tabloid media, to the association’s greed, to the appalling fan behaviour.  But as long as it makes money…

[Bigandy]

20 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

So tired of this argument.  Let’s stand behind cultural tradition or religion to justify practices which are hateful and just wrong.  It’s like hearing the “Eeny Meeny Miny Mo” nursery rhyme and brushing it off by saying it’s just some kids singing a song.  
 

And why do fans cheering for Mexico seem to get away with throwing things at players on the field each game?  This is also becoming a disturbing automatic at every Mexico-US game.

Mexico soccer culture, for all its passion and tradition, is at an ugly state right now.  You hear that players themselves have reservations about putting on the jersey.  From the vicious tabloid media, to the association’s greed, to the appalling fan behaviour.  But as long as it makes money…

Its so frustrating that theres all these justifications and excuses. Do we need to know how to solve every single detail, make excuses for every single detail or is there doing to be a time where concacaf says, enough is enough. We dont care if youre home or away or how homophobic the chant is or any other detail. We are putting a stop to it. Mexico forfeits the game and its solved, whether its home or away. Do the same with racism. 

[InglewoodJack]

11 hours ago, eramosat said:

y.

to me, it has nothing to do with red-zone homophobia concerns, and everything to do with a misguided but innocent tradition.  

 

Apparently they started chanting this in the early 2000s? 2004 the first time it was heard? This tradition isn't even as old as Atiba's national team career. C'mon.

[Kadenge]

52 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

And why do fans cheering for Mexico seem to get away with throwing things at players on the field ......

Did you watch the West Ham v Fiorentina game? A player was hit on the  head with a projectile and was bleeding profusely. I agree with you, there has to be strict rules when it comes to player safety..but money speaks unfortunately

Edited June 16, 2023 by Kadenge

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, king1010 said:

Over on US Soccer reddit, they're saying there shouldn't be any issues in defeating Canada without Mckennie and Dest as the USA B team should easily handle Canada. 

In Soccer We Trust has a more respectful take, those guys even say we match them man for man. Which I don't think is the case. But still, they recognize the challenge for the States and I think the US team will too.

 

[JamboAl]

There was a stadium security briefing that one of the Voyageurs went to on Wednesday.  There was us, American Outlaws and a rep from Pancho Villa.  For anyone who doesn’t know, PV is entirely US based and their rep at the meeting was from Reno.  

There was a palpable tension in that meeting between AO and PV and both sets of supporters were told to “play nice” (which didn’t happen unsurprisingly).  The AO group were in a section to the left of the Vs and the PV section was behind the opposite goal.  But all surrounding the AO group were thousands of Mexicans.  The Mexican support in the stadium were mostly made up of individual American residents/citizens.  I really don’t know how this problem can get fixed except for an outright ban of ALL supporters at a Mexico game, including us if we were to pay them again.  

[sebdeserio]

2 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

There was a stadium security briefing that one of the Voyageurs went to on Wednesday.  There was us, American Outlaws and a rep from Pancho Villa.  For anyone who doesn’t know, PV is entirely US based and their rep at the meeting was from Reno.  

There was a palpable tension in that meeting between AO and PV and both sets of supporters were told to “play nice” (which didn’t happen unsurprisingly).  The AO group were in a section to the left of the Vs and the PV section was behind the opposite goal.  But all surrounding the AO group were thousands of Mexicans.  The Mexican support in the stadium were mostly made up of individual American residents/citizens.  I really don’t know how this problem can get fixed except for an outright ban of ALL supporters at a Mexico game, including us if we were to pay them again.  

CONCACAF will never do that because they'd be broke. Just look at the empty threats about the chant every Mexico game they say it for every goal kick and there hasn't been a single game that was ended because of it (yesterday the ref said he did not stop it early because of the chant). It even gave them an advantage against us last gold cup.

[SpursFlu]

I think everyone's missing the issue with the whole chant thing and attempted enforcement of it

The issue is the Mexican fans don't give two shits.. the more people get wound up and create rules the funnier they think it is to fuck with people. It's not a homophobic chant it's a you can't tell me what to do chant. It's also mostly not even Mexicans doing the chant.. so all those people will go back to Denver, Reno, San Bernandino, Tucson giggling and laughing and not really caring one way or another because it's all just a big pisstake to them

[JamboAl]

1 minute ago, sebdeserio said:

CONCACAF will never do that because they'd be broke. Just look at the empty threats about the chant every Mexico game they say it for every goal kick and there hasn't been a single game that was ended because of it (yesterday the ref said he did not stop it early because of the chant). It even gave them an advantage against us last gold cup.

I agree.  The Mexican support base is the largest in CONCACAF by far.  It would be like banning Canadian fans from going to the World Juniors (hockey).

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Did you watch the West Ham v Fiorentina game? A player was hit on the  head with a projectile and was bleeding profusely. I agree with you, there has to be strict rules when it comes to player safety..but money speaks unfortunately

If the guy who threw the vape pen is identified, he will be banned for life.  

That's not new.

[Bigandy]

12 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I think everyone's missing the issue with the whole chant thing and attempted enforcement of it

The issue is the Mexican fans don't give two shits.. the more people get wound up and create rules the funnier they think it is to fuck with people. It's not a homophobic chant it's a you can't tell me what to do chant. It's also mostly not even Mexicans doing the chant.. so all those people will go back to Denver, Reno, San Bernandino, Tucson giggling and laughing and not really caring one way or another because it's all just a big pisstake to them

How do you know that its not mexicans doing the chant when its always during the mexican games? 

I agree that its just a big pisstake. But cant you say the same thing is happening with racist chants and monkey sounds? At what point do you say that a pisstake is unacceptable and you do some enforcement. What has concacaf and/or the mexican federation done to even try and stop the problem? 

For those that say its complicated because its an away game - The USSF has a policy in place that bans countries from playing in the USA for 2 years on the first offence of discriminatory chants..... Will they follow their own policy or will money talk? 

[SpursFlu]

9 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

How do you know that its not mexicans doing the chant when its always during the mexican games? 

I agree that its just a big pisstake. But cant you say the same thing is happening with racist chants and monkey sounds? At what point do you say that a pisstake is unacceptable and you do some enforcement. What has concacaf and/or the mexican federation done to even try and stop the problem? 

For those that say its complicated because its an away game - The USSF has a policy in place that bans countries from playing in the USA for 2 years on the first offence of discriminatory chants..... Will they follow their own policy or will money talk? 

Have you ever been to California, Nevada, Texas, Arizona, Colorado etc?

I think it might be a East Coast thing because I was scratching my head at the Onesoccer wow we're not in Kansas anymore reaction to the crowd and them saying Mexican fans really travel. Travel? Not only do you have Mexican first generation but now you have multiple generations, people with split heritage.. I think people have estimated there are about 90 million Americans with Mexican heritage. You go to any of those Southwest States, even Northwest States and at times you basically feel like you could be in Mexico or Central America. I'm not trying to hate on anybody. I'm just pointing to reality 

Edited June 16, 2023 by SpursFlu

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, JamboAl said:

If I were to guess, yes and yes.  The question should be would the Mexican fans stay to cheer us on against their bitter rivals.  There were a lot of “Canada Canada” chants at the end of the game but that doesn’t translate to them wanting to stay on after their game is over.

The real question is whether or not we will face sanctions when the Mexican fans cheering for Canada start chanting “puta”…

[Bigandy]

Just now, SpursFlu said:

Have you ever been to California, Nevada, Texas, Arizona, Colorado etc?

I think it might be a East Coast thing because I was scratching my head at the Onesoccer wow we're not in Kansas anymore reaction to the crowd and them saying Mexican fans really travel. Travel? Not only do you have Mexican first generation but now you have multiple generations, people with split heritage.. I think people have estimated there are about 90 million Americans with Mexican heritage. You go to any of those Southwest States, even Northwest States and at time you basically feel like you're in Mexico or Central America at times. I'm not trying to hate on anybody. I'm just pointing to reality 

Im not sure what your point is? Do you not count those 90 millions american/mexicans as mexican? What about for games not in the USA where this occurs? 

[SpursFlu]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Im not sure what your point is? Do you not count those 90 millions american/mexicans as mexican? What about for games not in the USA where this occurs? 

They're Americans.. but they cheer for Mexico 

I got news for people.. if you were born in Sacramento. You're American. But God Bless America.. you can crush 10 Tecates and hoot and holler for whatever soccer team your little heart desires

Edited June 16, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

They're Americans.. but they cheer for Mexico 

I got news for people.. if you were born in Sacramento. You're American. But God Bless America.. you can crush 10 Tecates and hoot and holler for whatever soccer team your little heart desires

I mean, the guidelines for playing and passport eligibility would say differently. But even if thats true, how does that change anything? The issue is not that mexicans are making the chant. The issue is that mexican fans are making the chant. 

[SpursFlu]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I mean, the guidelines for playing and passport eligibility would say differently. But even if thats true, how does that change anything? The issue is not that mexicans are making the chant. The issue is that mexican fans are making the chant. 

No the real issue is they don't care about the chant, they don't care about the rule and they don't care about the consequences 

So good luck with that one

Edited June 16, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

No the real issue is they don't care about the chant, they don't care about the rule and they don't care about the consequences 

So good luck with that one

Wouldnt that be a very easy fix? Mexico forfeits the game. The fans care to some degree if they spend money on jerseys, parking, tickets etc. to attend the match. Eventually the fans or the federation will get fed up with losing every game to forfeits. Either the fans change or the federation finds a solution. They could use video technology to find the fans and ban them for life. They could make a strict fan club policy. They could play games without any fans at home games. They can work together with the USSF to find solutions away from home. 

They can literally start trying to make any changes and start the process of fixing this. Instead they do nothing.  Dont get me wrong, theres lots of logistical challenges. However, just because its difficult does not mean the solution is to do nothing. 

[king1010]

6 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

No the real issue is they don't care about the chant, they don't care about the rule and they don't care about the consequences 

So good luck with that one

If future Mexico games are played in empty stadiums or they receive point deductions or banned from gold cups they’d start to care. But as stated, concacaf will never do that. 
 

 

[Snowcrash]

59 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

They're Americans.. but they cheer for Mexico 

I got news for people.. if you were born in Sacramento. You're American. But God Bless America.. you can crush 10 Tecates and hoot and holler for whatever soccer team your little heart desires

Exactly.  It's like calling Celtic supporters in Canada Scottish.  Fact is, they're Canadians, with Irish ancestry, who cheer for Celtic. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 minutes ago, Snowcrash said:

Exactly.  It's like calling Celtic supporters in Canada Scottish.  Fact is, they're Canadians, with Irish ancestry, who cheer for Celtic. 

That's usually the case with Celtic fans but isn't always necessarily true for their entire support. Plenty of glory hunters with Scottish ancestry latch onto them as well, especially in the more remote areas well away from Glasgow.

Also worth bearing in mind that not everybody with PR status in a Canadian context takes out citizenship. Been a while since I was involved with a TFC fan group but pushing the CMNT angle wasn't universally popular in that context in my experience because a lot of people living in the GTA even for decades on end are genuinely not Canadian in citizenship terms and that demographic is a lot more likely to be into soccer than hockey or the CFL.

Winding things back to Mexican fans living in the United States there will be plenty who fall into that sort of category as well given what has happened for example with the so called "Dreamers".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act

[SpursFlu]

A lot of the Mexican fans also cheer for the US. I think people take this tribalism thing too far. It's just people out having fun. There was a fun shot after the Americans 3rd goal of a little kid going crazy wearing an American shirt and a Mexican head band. People can be proud of their heritage and proud of their country at the same time. At the end of the day it's just a soccer game. I know in my family we have more than a couple countries people get behind and we just have fun with it

Edited June 16, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Obinna]

6 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Wouldnt that be a very easy fix? Mexico forfeits the game. The fans care to some degree if they spend money on jerseys, parking, tickets etc. to attend the match. Eventually the fans or the federation will get fed up with losing every game to forfeits. Either the fans change or the federation finds a solution. They could use video technology to find the fans and ban them for life. They could make a strict fan club policy. They could play games without any fans at home games. They can work together with the USSF to find solutions away from home. 

They can literally start trying to make any changes and start the process of fixing this. Instead they do nothing.  Dont get me wrong, theres lots of logistical challenges. However, just because its difficult does not mean the solution is to do nothing. 

I don't see this issue going away for the foreseeable future. @SpursFlu is right, it comes down to individuals not giving a shit about consequences that don't affect them. Yes, in theory you can punish the team, which may deter some fans, but  without personal consequences I don't see a change. Maybe I am wrong but I think the authorities are just fighting a losing battle on this one, just my two cents.