Moise Bombito

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

A lot is said about his speed, but the whole reason we wanted speed is so we can prevent opponents from getting in behind our defense. I can't remember ever seeing so many breakaways against us as we have had these last few games. I don't know if they are on him, or Corneilius, or both, but that needs to get sorted out quick.

This isn't really on Cornelius or Bombito, Marsch's system calls for this.  There have been mistakes like we saw vs Holland too, but they aren't necessarily specifically on the CB's.

[Kent]

1 hour ago, CanadaFan123 said:

I don’t remember many breakaways in the France or Netherlands games. 

I lumped those games in there because I remember being upset and shocked at a bad breakaway in the Netherlands game. I don't remember the exact details but I feel like I was left wondering where our defenders were. But now my memory of it is merging with the Angel Di Maria breakaway.

[Kent]

14 minutes ago, costarg said:

This isn't really on Cornelius or Bombito, Marsch's system calls for this.  There have been mistakes like we saw vs Holland too, but they aren't necessarily specifically on the CB's.

I am sure Marsch's system isn't asking Bombito to be late to identify the run that his mark made to set up the opening goal, or to not deal with the long ball on the play where Crepeau ended up out of position and the ball put across the empty net, or for Bombito to end up 15 meters behind the Argentinian on his side when Crepeau did well to clear the ball up field, or for Corneilius to get caught on the wrong side of Messi on a long ball from the keeper, or for Bombito to have his pass picked off as the last man back and give up a breakaway, or Bombito to not follow his man behind Corneilius when Derek was clearly occupied by the ball carrier on the second goal.

Don't get me wrong, these guys did a lot right in the game, but there were also a lot of mistakes. When they were trying to tackle, they did well. But there were lots of times where they just weren't where they were supposed to be, which is also a mistake. And I know this is Argentina and they are where they are because they make it hard for teams and will induce mistakes, but still, it's these mistakes that we need to work on.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

24 minutes ago, Kent said:

I lumped those games in there because I remember being upset and shocked at a bad breakaway in the Netherlands game. I don't remember the exact details but I feel like I was left wondering where our defenders were. But now my memory of it is merging with the Angel Di Maria breakaway.

There was the one with Brobby at the end of the first(?), where the defenders Davies (?) and Bombito got caught by the run coming from their half. 

Not what we want to see but, to be fair, Bombito was level by the time he got his shot off and it was a lot more difficult chance that it should have been.  

[archer21]

8 minutes ago, Kent said:

I am sure Marsch's system isn't asking Bombito to be late to identify the run that his mark made to set up the opening goal, or to not deal with the long ball on the play where Crepeau ended up out of position and the ball put across the empty net, or for Bombito to end up 15 meters behind the Argentinian on his side when Crepeau did well to clear the ball up field, or for Corneilius to get caught on the wrong side of Messi on a long ball from the keeper, or for Bombito to have his pass picked off as the last man back and give up a breakaway, or Bombito to not follow his man behind Corneilius when Derek was clearly occupied by the ball carrier on the second goal.

Don't get me wrong, these guys did a lot right in the game, but there were also a lot of mistakes. When they were trying to tackle, they did well. But there were lots of times where they just weren't where they were supposed to be, which is also a mistake. And I know this is Argentina and they are where they are because they make it hard for teams and will induce mistakes, but still, it's these mistakes that we need to work on.

Marsch even mentioned in his interviews that we made a lot of simple mistakes, particularly defensively. I don't think we should just expect and accept that teams will get multiple clear breakaways every game. Yes, Marsch's system makes it more likely that this will occur, as 1 mistake can turn into a goal quickly. But that doesn't mean we can't be better defensively. If Marsch's system always allowed so many breakaways, he wouldn't have climbed the coaching ladder so quickly. We just aren't executing the system properly yet, which is to be expected at this point.

[Kent]

17 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

There was the one with Brobby at the end of the first(?), where the defenders Davies (?) and Bombito got caught by the run coming from their half. 

Not what we want to see but, to be fair, Bombito was level by the time he got his shot off and it was a lot more difficult chance that it should have been.  

Yes, that's the one. I do remember Bombito getting back well enough to I think take a pass away or something. But reminded me that I was asking myself what is the point of having the 2 fastest defenders in the world if players will just run in behind them anyway and get a shot off.

[costarg]

26 minutes ago, Kent said:

I am sure Marsch's system isn't asking Bombito to be late to identify the run that his mark made to set up the opening goal, or to not deal with the long ball on the play where Crepeau ended up out of position and the ball put across the empty net, or for Bombito to end up 15 meters behind the Argentinian on his side when Crepeau did well to clear the ball up field, or for Corneilius to get caught on the wrong side of Messi on a long ball from the keeper, or for Bombito to have his pass picked off as the last man back and give up a breakaway, or Bombito to not follow his man behind Corneilius when Derek was clearly occupied by the ball carrier on the second goal.

Don't get me wrong, these guys did a lot right in the game, but there were also a lot of mistakes. When they were trying to tackle, they did well. But there were lots of times where they just weren't where they were supposed to be, which is also a mistake. And I know this is Argentina and they are where they are because they make it hard for teams and will induce mistakes, but still, it's these mistakes that we need to work on.

We were discussing this exact thing even before we played Holland.  I think it was @WestHamCanadianinOxford and @Sal333 that mentioned Marsch's system would leave us vulnerable to quick breaks.  It was expected and predictable.  Also the reason lots of us were hoping to see Davies play LB to help with these breaks.

Either way, the backline is completely new, as well as the system.  Add to that the level of opponents and these situations are 100% normal.  This backline is still infinitely better than anything we've seen in the past and all other options we have at the moment, they've done unexpectedly well.  Cornelius and Bombito are both earning high praise and most likely trades and higher wages.  Just need to keep it up for a couple more games.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, Kent said:

Yes, that's the one. I do remember Bombito getting back well enough to I think take a pass away or something. But reminded me that I was asking myself what is the point of having the 2 fastest defenders in the world if players will just run in behind them anyway and get a shot off.

Yeah, they have to read that and know offside won't save them.  

Again more a positioning/reading the game thing for me.

And if I recall, there were 2 passes, one into midfield and then one out in front of Brobby.  If we press high as @Unnamed Trialist said, you also have to press the outlet.

First game, huge opponents.  Let's see what they have learned from that and Argentina about long balls.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Indeed.  Yet you ignored the rest of my comment.

He's shown impressive instincts and basics in all different phases of the game with very limited pro minutes.  He's still learning and at an incredible rate.

Very fair and good comment regarding the work required on his side vs Cornelius

We're not talking about a guy that's doing well vs a few teams in MLS any more.  He just faced Argentina and France and did not look out of place.  Honest question, how do you think prime Vitoria with all his composure, aerial dominance and "better" positioning/anticipation would've looked in the last games?

Prime Vitoria was excellent in World Cup qualifying, where we actually had clean sheets and won matches, and he had assists, and in the world cup he was not the problem except maybe on one goal against, if you look at it it would be a shared error. Dangerous in the attacking box. A leader and not a follower on the pitch. Less than two years ago.

I find it ridiculous they way we sweep people under the carpet and jump on the first bandwagon, dissing our own legacy in the meantime. For me, Bombito is completely unproven and I don't see him as a premium defender yet. He is still finding his feet. Or at least it is a long ways away. He actually did look out of place vs. Argentina, getting burned terribly on a few plays, blew the offside trap on the 2nd, coughed up embarrassing balls right to the attackers, and is clearly inferior to Cornelius. Who we are barely settling into as our mainstay. 

I used to criticize little details about Miller, now others seem to agree on various things. A limited player. But with a better outlet pass, and more aware moving into spaces going forward. The only upside to Bombito is that he is literally just starting, and these NCAA guys often need a few more years to really show themselves as mature. 

He's 24 years old, Moise Bombito. 

[costarg]

28 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Prime Vitoria was excellent in World Cup qualifying, where we actually had clean sheets and won matches, and he had assists, and in the world cup he was not the problem except maybe on one goal against, if you look at it it would be a shared error. Dangerous in the attacking box. A leader and not a follower on the pitch. Less than two years ago.I find it ridiculous they way we sweep people under the carpet and jump on the first bandwagon, dissing our own legacy in the meantime.

It's funny, cause we look back now and say we "won" WCQ with Vitoria leading the backline, yet back in the moment every match we were writing about how vulnerable we were at the back with his limitations.  He had some strong qualities, but glaring weaknesses as well.  

Calling it what it is isn't dissing our legacy, it's just being real and not letting bias take over.

Benfica took a flyer on Vitoria and played him once (I think) and never gave him another shot, maybe the same happens with Bombito at OL.  I still have my money on Bombito.  Yes, he unproven over a regular season, but I still feel he has more tools and higher baseline than one of the most important guys to put on the shirt for us.

40 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

For me, Bombito is completely unproven and I don't see him as a premium defender yet. He is still finding his feet. Or at least it is a long ways away. He actually did look out of place vs. Argentina, getting burned terribly on a few plays, blew the offside trap on the 2nd, coughed up embarrassing balls right to the attackers, and is clearly inferior to Cornelius. Who we are barely settling into as our mainstay. 

And this is completely normal!  It's Argen-f'in-tina man.  What did you expect?  He is unproven, no argument there.  He will make mistakes, probably even vs Peru and Chile and that's ok!  Van Dyke also makes mistakes.  He's still our best option right now, just like Vitoria was 3 years ago.

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, costarg said:

It's funny, cause we look back now and say we "won" WCQ with Vitoria leading the backline, yet back in the moment every match we were writing about how vulnerable we were at the back with his limitations.  He had some strong qualities, but glaring weaknesses as well.  

Calling it what it is isn't dissing our legacy, it's just being real and not letting bias take over.

Benfica took a flyer on Vitoria and played him once (I think) and never gave him another shot, maybe the same happens with Bombito at OL.  I still have my money on Bombito.  Yes, he unproven over a regular season, but I still feel he has more tools and higher baseline than one of the most important guys to put on the shirt for us.

And this is completely normal!  It's Argen-f'in-tina man.  What did you expect?  He is unproven, no argument there.  He will make mistakes, probably even vs Peru and Chile and that's ok!  Van Dyke also makes mistakes.  He's still our best option right now, just like Vitoria was 3 years ago.

Only you are not calling it as it is.

You are hitting the Bombito "bombo", as they say in Copa language, banging the Bombito drum. In Spanish they even say "auto-bombo", banging your own drum. 

Anyways, Cornelius is our best option. I liked details about Moise, like when Brobby was putting his ass into him and they had those battles on the long balls vs. Netherlands. Forget who it was who said the NCAA guys have an interesting virtue, that they went to school and they actually know how to learn, they have a solid learning culture and that helps them accelerate a few things even with the late start. 

I'd like to know what folks think: if Moise were to be injured, who would you put in the back with Derek? Some would say Waterman. Others would suggest a pairing with Miller. Probably most would be unsure about Luc or Kyle. Of those 4, who could match Moise in a few key areas?

[Pomoxis]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

He's 24 years old, Moise Bombito. 

 

As I understand it, he's Moïse Bombito.

[archer21]

6 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Only you are not calling it as it is.

You are hitting the Bombito "bombo", as they say in Copa language, banging the Bombito drum. In Spanish they even say "auto-bombo", banging your own drum. 

Anyways, Cornelius is our best option. I liked details about Moise, like when Brobby was putting his ass into him and they had those battles on the long balls vs. Netherlands. Forget who it was who said the NCAA guys have an interesting virtue, that they went to school and they actually know how to learn, they have a solid learning culture and that helps them accelerate a few things even with the late start. 

I'd like to know what folks think: if Moise were to be injured, who would you put in the back with Derek? Some would say Waterman. Others would suggest a pairing with Miller. Probably most would be unsure about Luc or Kyle. Of those 4, who could match Moise in a few key areas?

I'm sure this isn't the case with absolutely everyone, but I think with most people it's Bombito's potential that they're excited about. I agree that Cornelius is currently our best option. But Bombito has the physical tools that could give him a higher ceiling. He may or may not reach that high ceiling, but he is such an intriguing prospect. If he was 24 and had been playing MLS since 18, I'd be less excited. But despite the age, he is very inexperienced at a high level, and has also played other positions. He has so much to learn, which to me just means that his improvement could be quicker than usual for a 24 year old.

[GasPed]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'd like to know what folks think: if Moise were to be injured, who would you put in the back with Derek? Some would say Waterman. Others would suggest a pairing with Miller. Probably most would be unsure about Luc or Kyle. Of those 4, who could match Moise in a few key areas?

That's an interesting question, but I think it highlights our dearth of depth at RCB rather than says anything about Bombito.

Waterman is probably the best option, but I don't think he's a match for Bombito in most areas.  He's probably better on the ball, and may have better awareness, but in all the physical attributes he's not even close.  Putting Miller at LCB and shifting Derek to RCB would also be an option.  Neither of those options are appealing.  

[Obinna]

Just now, GasPed said:

That's an interesting question, but I think it highlights our dearth of depth at RCB rather than says anything about Bombito.

Waterman is probably the best option, but I don't think he's a match for Bombito in most areas.  He's probably better on the ball, and may have better awareness, but in all the physical attributes he's not even close.  Putting Miller at LCB and shifting Derek to RCB would also be an option.  Neither of those options are appealing.  

I think the only thing Waterman may have on Bombito, aside from experience, is composure on the ball.

Bombito is a very good passer of the ball, for me just as good as Waterman is, but when pressured against Argentina he looked uncomfortable a few times. I think Waterman has that extra bit of composure not to be phased, but also he's never played against a team like Argentina, so hard to say for sure.

[InglewoodJack]

19 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'd like to know what folks think: if Moise were to be injured, who would you put in the back with Derek? Some would say Waterman. Others would suggest a pairing with Miller. Probably most would be unsure about Luc or Kyle. Of those 4, who could match Moise in a few key areas?

Has to be Kamal. He’s better than all of our other guys. Don’t think I trust Waterman against this level just yet. 
 

Would be cool to slot LDF in there and see what happens, but Miller is the safe bet. 

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Has to be Kamal. He’s better than all of our other guys. Don’t think I trust Waterman against this level just yet. 
 

Would be cool to slot LDF in there and see what happens, but Miller is the safe bet. 

I would reluctantly go Miller, even though Miller and Cornelius haven't made a good pair. He just has much more experience than Waterman at this level.

If Waterman had a dozen caps under his belt, I would say Waterman, and I could be talked into Waterman regardless, but again, would probably go Miller as well, then hope their previous poor showings together were a blip. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

19 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I would reluctantly go Miller, even though Miller and Cornelius haven't made a good pair. He just has much more experience than Waterman at this level.

If Waterman had a dozen caps under his belt, I would say Waterman, and I could be talked into Waterman regardless, but again, would probably go Miller as well, then hope their previous poor showings together were a blip. 

Always been a big fan of Miller's, but this scares me more because of positioning (two left) and because they haven't been a good pair. Maybe in a back three? But can we afford to be that thin at the back? Who takes CB? Cornelius? 

Edited Tuesday at 05:00 PM by DeRo_Is_King

[Unnamed Trialist]

28 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Has to be Kamal. He’s better than all of our other guys. Don’t think I trust Waterman against this level just yet. 
 

Would be cool to slot LDF in there and see what happens, but Miller is the safe bet. 

I agree. I'd even put Derek on the right and leave Kamal close to Davies where he is more comfortable. I think Cornelius could adjust no problem. 

What bothered me about Kamal way back, and he solved partially in qualifying, is that he is flat-footed, has a slow start because of it, lets the ball die at his feet when playing out, and lacks crispness overall when he has time on the ball. I also find his positioning suspect. I think, for example, that he would be a failure anywhere near a top league in Europe. And then, I am not sure he has any sort of ambition to take a step up, when he is young enough to at least think about it.

[costarg]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Only you are not calling it as it is.

You are hitting the Bombito "bombo", as they say in Copa language, banging the Bombito drum. In Spanish they even say "auto-bombo", banging your own drum. 

Anyways, Cornelius is our best option. I liked details about Moise, like when Brobby was putting his ass into him and they had those battles on the long balls vs. Netherlands. Forget who it was who said the NCAA guys have an interesting virtue, that they went to school and they actually know how to learn, they have a solid learning culture and that helps them accelerate a few things even with the late start. 

I'd like to know what folks think: if Moise were to be injured, who would you put in the back with Derek? Some would say Waterman. Others would suggest a pairing with Miller. Probably most would be unsure about Luc or Kyle. Of those 4, who could match Moise in a few key areas?

Yup, you got me pegged.  I am absolutely banging the drum and on the bandwagon.  I've seen mistakes, but, I've also seen progress.  Most of all I see an incredibly gifted athlete with intelligence, instincts, good body language and seems to focus on positives.  I've already seen all this, but what excites me most is the potential.

As for injury, I don't even want to think about that at the moment.  The drop-off is steep.

[costarg]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I find it ridiculous they way we sweep people under the carpet and jump on the first bandwagon, dissing our own legacy in the meantime.

What I find fascinating - and a little ridiculous - is we're so quick to jump and attack anyone who comments on the Vitoria's, Borjan's and Osorio's when they have bad games, streaks and/or obvious shortcomings, but completely tear apart and question the hype for the younger more inexperienced guys when they're up against Holland, France and Argentina.

I might be totally off here, just feel we're so much harder on Davies, David, Kone and Bombito than we ever were on Vitoria, Borjan and Osorio (just examples, I use them cause we've seen some great games and moments as well as some awful ones).  Maybe part of it is based on expectations?

[jhoops__]

 

[clamlinguine]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Prime Vitoria was excellent in World Cup qualifying, where we actually had clean sheets and won matches, and he had assists, and in the world cup he was not the problem except maybe on one goal against, if you look at it it would be a shared error. Dangerous in the attacking box. A leader and not a follower on the pitch. Less than two years ago.

I find it ridiculous they way we sweep people under the carpet and jump on the first bandwagon, dissing our own legacy in the meantime. For me, Bombito is completely unproven and I don't see him as a premium defender yet. He is still finding his feet. Or at least it is a long ways away. He actually did look out of place vs. Argentina, getting burned terribly on a few plays, blew the offside trap on the 2nd, coughed up embarrassing balls right to the attackers, and is clearly inferior to Cornelius. Who we are barely settling into as our mainstay. 

I used to criticize little details about Miller, now others seem to agree on various things. A limited player. But with a better outlet pass, and more aware moving into spaces going forward. The only upside to Bombito is that he is literally just starting, and these NCAA guys often need a few more years to really show themselves as mature. 

He's 24 years old, Moise Bombito. 

Miller and Vitoria always looked clumsy. The new guys don't. imo

[Cicero]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

Yup, you got me pegged.  I am absolutely banging the drum and on the bandwagon.  I've seen mistakes, but, I've also seen progress.  Most of all I see an incredibly gifted athlete with intelligence, instincts, good body language and seems to focus on positives.  I've already seen all this, but what excites me most is the potential.

As for injury, I don't even want to think about that at the moment.  The drop-off is steep.

I hope he develops into a defender who can compete with top 10 teams, but I don't think we saw that yet in the last three games. I'm not dissing him, but he needs to play real games, especially at his age. Two or three seasons of sitting on the bench and only training will not help his development, but I presume he'd be loaned out rather than sit and rot on the bench. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

What I find fascinating - and a little ridiculous - is we're so quick to jump and attack anyone who comments on the Vitoria's, Borjan's and Osorio's when they have bad games, streaks and/or obvious shortcomings, but completely tear apart and question the hype for the younger more inexperienced guys when they're up against Holland, France and Argentina.

I might be totally off here, just feel we're so much harder on Davies, David, Kone and Bombito than we ever were on Vitoria, Borjan and Osorio (just examples, I use them cause we've seen some great games and moments as well as some awful ones).  Maybe part of it is based on expectations?

Not sure "completely tear apart" is fair assessment of just about any post I have seen on Bombito.    You have been harsher on some players, no?

Huge future, still lots and of lots of work to get there.  People have their biases and also try to describe that in different ways.