After watching Croatia and Morocco, what Canada still lacks

[football_world]

So Croatia and Morocco have been knocked out now.  But it was interesting to watch how other teams played Croatia and Morocco, and to determine what Canada lacked against them. 

What I noticed most about how Croatia played Canada, versus how Croatia played against Brazil and Argentina, was that Croatia used some form of high press against Canada, but Croatia were reluctant to execute the same high press against Brazil and Argentina.  As you may know, the disadvantage with a high press is that if the defenders on the team you are pressing can manage to pass the ball out back to the midfield, there is a lot of space for a counter attack.  IMO, Croatia viewed Canada's defenders as having weaker passing ability and Croatia was right - our defenders made a lot of mistakes trying to pass the ball back out to midfield, and we lost possession to Croatia several times as a result. Against Brazil and Argentina though, Croatia respected the passing ability of their defenders and did not really press aggressively against Brazil and Argentina in their 1/3 of the field.

The next one is pretty obvious, but Borjan just had a bad World Cup.  Oh well, he got us through CONCACAF qualifying so I think we should be thankful for his play during qualifying.  Having said that, both the French keeper and Argentina keeper played a much better match than Borjan, when France beat Morocco and when Argentina beat Croatia. 

Another thing that is obvious is the quality of players we have.  For example, having a player like Messi, Mbappe, or Neymar would be so nice.  Messi and Mbappe were involved in the goals scored when Argentina beat Croatia and when France beat Morocco.  Neymar gave Brazil the go ahead goal against Croatia and Brazil just needed to defend for a few minutes. In general, having that quality, especially that depth of quality, is huge.  For France, they don't even have Karim Benzema and Paul Pobga, and they can still reach the World Cup finals.  In the case of Karim Benzema, he wasn't part of the World Cup squad when France won in 2018, and it looks like this year, France didn't need him either.  For England's last game, Sterling and Rashford came off the bench.  It would be nice for Canada if we had players like Sterling and Rashford sitting on the bench, and if we didn't need players of the quality of Karim Benzema and Paul Pogba to make the World Cup finals.

Lastly, I got to admit, a little luck helps too.  Looking back at the Morocco game, if Borjan didn't make that mistake and cleared the ball, and if Atiba Hutchinson's header had went in, our game against Morocco could have had a totally different result.  Morocco was a very beatable team, at least in the match we played them.  For Brazil, they just needed to defend for the last few minutes after Neymar scored - Brazil IMO, was clearly the better team than Croatia through 120 minutes of play (but of course, Croatia was just better in PKs). With a little more luck,I think Brazil would have gone through.  Japan had that luck, with their ball staying just inbounds, and they got through to the second round.

Anyways, I'm still proud of our boys and I look forward to how we perform in the 2026 World Cup.

Edited December 15, 2022 by football_world

[Ottawafan]

Central mid. An 8 with skill. We don’t have that guy and never have. 
 

The game against Croatia was less about our players and more about tactical set up. Playing three in the back?  Putting slow and slower in the mid?  David and Larin at the same time?  That was pure embarrassment. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Ottawafan

[Bigandy]

3 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Central mid. An 8 with skill. We don’t have that guy and never have. 
 

The game against Croatia was less about our players and more about tactical set up. Playing three in the back?  Putting slow and slower in the mid?  David and Larin at the same time?  That was pure embarrassment. 

Isn't Eustaqiou exactly that guy? Hes box to box for porto, huge for build up play. Pops up with goals and assists recently. An 8 links the defenders to the attackers which is exactly what eustaqiou does.  Are you mistaking an 8 with a "10"?

I agree that the player selection raises some questions, but surely you are not saying that its not about our players. 
If we go with whatever you are suggesting, 4 defenders, a midfield trio without atiba and staq, and only one of david and larin, we would still have been absolutely destroyed. Player for player, we are so far behind croatia. They can play the game at a different tempo.  Our loss to them is 100% player related and our tactics may not have helped. 

[SpursFlu]

I think with something to play for and a healthy Eustaquio and David starting we beat Morocco 

We just needed a bit more experience 

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I think with something to play for and a healthy Eustaquio and David starting we beat Morocco 

We just needed a bit more experience 

With a bit more experience, we finish our chances vs belguim and dont give up such a terrible goal... 

[RS]

12 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Isn't Eustaqiou exactly that guy?

Yes he is.

[Ottawafan]

.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Ottawafan

[Obinna]

11 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Isn't Eustaqiou exactly that guy? Hes box to box for porto, huge for build up play. Pops up with goals and assists recently. An 8 links the defenders to the attackers which is exactly what eustaqiou does.  Are you mistaking an 8 with a "10"?
 

I think he's talking about a player like Kone.

Eustaquio is a great player for us and now for Porto. He is an 8 who can play as a 6 and play as a 10. He is box-to-box in every sense and has a great engine and intensity, coupled with very good vision and technique. We can say he is skilled, of course, but Kone has what I will call "flair" that Eustaquio doesn't really have. There are elements of it in his passing game, sometimes you see a creative scoop pass from him, things like that, but by-and-large he is a hard working 8 with technique.

Kone has something about him. He has this sort of flair in his play. The way he can twist and turn with the ball and create space for himself on the dribble with burts of pace, all while playing as a box-to-box. It is the sort of skill that pops out at you in a very evident way. 

I believe that's what Ottawa fan meant, but I don't know for sure. What I do know is that it is what I thought of when I read his post.

Problem is, Kone is very green and needs to show and prove and improve on these native qualities of his, to give us the kind of no. 8 @Ottawafan is describing. He has every chance to get there!

[Ottawafan]

34 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Isn't Eustaqiou exactly that guy? Hes box to box for porto, huge for build up play. Pops up with goals and assists recently. An 8 links the defenders to the attackers which is exactly what eustaqiou does.  Are you mistaking an 8 with a "10"?

I agree that the player selection raises some questions, but surely you are not saying that its not about our players. 
If we go with whatever you are suggesting, 4 defenders, a midfield trio without atiba and staq, and only one of david and larin, we would still have been absolutely destroyed. Player for player, we are so far behind croatia. They can play the game at a different tempo.  Our loss to them is 100% player related and our tactics may not have helped. 

Not sure which game you were watching but Croatia was never a winnable game. We played 3 in the back; about the 10 minute mark I turned to my buddy and said every ball Croatia is playing is going down the left side. We got absolutely abused out there. We needed to play a 4-5-1, defend and counter. That 100% is on Herdman. Putting a better squad out there with that formation would have given us a better chance. 
Canada doesn’t have an attacking 1 v 1 mid to line up with Eustaq. He’s not beating players at this level, getting around them and moving the ball. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Ottawafan

[Ottawafan]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I think he's talking about a player like Kone.

Eustaquio is a great player for us and now for Porto. He is an 8 who can play as a 6 and play as a 10. He is box-to-box in every sense and has a great engine and intensity, coupled with very good vision and technique. We can say he is skilled, of course, but Kone has what I will call "flair" that Eustaquio doesn't really have. There are elements of it in his passing game, sometimes you see a creative scoop pass from him, things like that, but by-and-large he is a hard working 8 with technique.

Kone has something about him. He has this sort of flair in his play. The way he can twist and turn with the ball and create space for himself on the dribble with burts of pace, all while playing as a box-to-box. It is the sort of skill that pops out at you in a very evident way. 

I believe that's what Ottawa fan meant, but I don't know for sure. What I do know is that it is what I thought of when I read his post.

Problem is, Kone is very green and needs to show and prove and improve on these native qualities of his, to give us the kind of no. 8 @Ottawafan is describing. He has every chance to get there!

Kone might be that guy. He has potential but will need to grow his game. I like him behind Eustaquio, especially at this point. Having the game in front of him as opposed to 360, at this point, is his game. 

[Lansdude]

We're clearly behind all three teams but what we saw throughout this tournament is that with the right gameplan to minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths, and a little luck and finishing, it's possible to play and win with a weaker hand. My complaint - and it feels ungrateful because we got to the World Cup on the first place - is that while we shouldn't have won, we didn't give ourselves the best chance to.

As for Eustaquio, he's not the type to turn and burn out of trouble. He needs an outlet and combinations to find otherwise if he gets cornered he's looking for a foul. He's not a ball carrier, no. This is why I wanted more of Kone against these positionally clever players even though he's nowhere near a finished product.

[Obinna]

Just now, Ottawafan said:

Kone might be that guy. He has potential but will need to grow his game. I like him behind Eustaquio, especially at this point. Having the game in front of him as opposed to 360, at this point, is his game. 

Agreed. Or both in a double pivot with a more offensive player in front of them. 

What I was in the middle of typing, actually, was that a future midfield of Eustaquio-Kone-Nelson may have some very good potential. Kone and especially Nelson would obviously have to grow and develop further, but the qualities both have are interesting.

We spoke about Kone already, so now to focus on Nelson.

What I like about him as a midfield player, aside from his technique and close control, is his ability to dribble and carry the ball and even take players on in the midfield. It is similar to Kone, but very different also. Both are orginally wingers though, which is why they can bring similar things - namely the ability to carry the ball and not just pass it. Osorio and Kaye both have their virtues, but they are pass first players. Eustaquio also. Kone and Nelson can pass first when it is the smart thing to do, but I see that both have the ability to dribble and accelerate into space and past opponents. If we have 2 players like that with Eustaquio to balance them out, there is good potential there.

Again though, Kone is very green and Nelson arguably more so. Kone needs to succeed at Watford and progress to EPL or Serie A and become an effective player at that level. Otherwise we are just talking potential. Nelson meanwhile really needs to go to a club like Anderlecht that can afford him game time and a shot at European games to experience that top level he/we will face in international competition.

Too early to say he needs to get to a top 5 league because he is not even in Europe yet. If he doesn't make the jump this winter, he at least has players like Oso, Kaye and Bradley to play and compete with, while Insigne and Bernadeschi are top level flank players. His development will keep moving forward regardless in the meantime.

[Bigandy]

17 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Not sure which game you were watching but Croatia was never a winnable game. We played 3 in the back; about the 10 minute mark I turned to my buddy and said every ball Croatia is playing is going down the left side. We got absolutely abused out there. We needed to play a 4-5-1, defend and counter. That 100% is on Herdman. Putting a better squad out there with that formation would have given us a better chance. 
Canada doesn’t have an attacking 1 v 1 mid to line up with Eustaq. He’s not beating players at this level, getting around them and moving the ball. 

Umm my comment was saying that croatia was never a winnable game....I agree with you.  I was commenting that any formation changes would not change that we were simply outclassed. Therefore if changing tactics do not change the result, the answer is that our players are not good enough. I dont think a 4-5-1 would have won us the game. It may have been closer but playing with only 2 cbs leaves more gaps than having 3. If we really wanted to defend and counter, i think a 5-4-1 suits our players better. To defend and counter, I think 2 blocks (a 5 man and a 4 man) is more important than a 3rd cm.   We did this vs the USA in a 4-4-2 but i think adding another CB would be better against croatia. If we are actually trying to play, then a 3 man midfield is way more important. 

An 8 is not an attacking mid and I do not think we need our 8's to be good at attacking 1v1. I would rather have ball progressing 8's and wingers, strikers, and 10's being 1v1 oriented.  Eustaq doesnt have to beat players to progress the ball, he does this by finding gaps and connecting with players.

[Bigandy]

28 minutes ago, Lansdude said:

We're clearly behind all three teams but what we saw throughout this tournament is that with the right gameplan to minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths, and a little luck and finishing, it's possible to play and win with a weaker hand. My complaint - and it feels ungrateful because we got to the World Cup on the first place - is that while we shouldn't have won, we didn't give ourselves the best chance to.

As for Eustaquio, he's not the type to turn and burn out of trouble. He needs an outlet and combinations to find otherwise if he gets cornered he's looking for a foul. He's not a ball carrier, no. This is why I wanted more of Kone against these positionally clever players even though he's nowhere near a finished product.

Isnt a little bit of luck and finishing all that was missing from belguim and morroco?  Croatia game aside, i think we gave ourselves a great chance to win these games. The only changes i may have made for these games (with hindsight) is to drop borjan (I actually probably would not have).
 

[football_world]

Just gonna say that I agree with @Bigandy@Lansdude@Ottawafan that we were outclassed by Croatia but using a better strategy and a more defensive formation (ie. bunkering and counter attacking)  could have improved our chances. Not sure if using a better strategy and a more defensive formation could have led to a win, only that it would have improved our chances.

The only caveat is, I don't know if Herdman and this team have really played a defensive formation and used a bunker strategy before.  It's something that needs practice, and if the team didn't practice it extensively before, we may have been better off using our normal formation and strategy.  I believe Morocco did a little bunkering, especially in the second round, but I think they had practiced it before, so the players and the team were familiar with it. I'm also not sure if Herdman has extensive experience with bunkering.

Edited December 15, 2022 by football_world

[GasPed]

4 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Central mid. An 8 with skill. We don’t have that guy and never have. 

I could've sworn we had this guy who was actually our captain not long ago and played that position...  ...ah, never mind, probably just a figment of my imagination... 

[GasPed]

2 minutes ago, football_world said:

Just gonna say that I agree with @Bigandy@Lansdude@Ottawafan that we were outclassed by Croatia but using a better strategy and a more defensive formation (ie. bunkering and counter attacking)  could have improved our chances. Not sure if using a better strategy and a more defensive formation could have led to a win, only that it would have improved our chances.

The only caveat is, I don't know if Herdman and this team have really played a defensive formation and used a bunker strategy before.  It's something that needs practice, and if the team didn't practice it extensively before, we may have been better off using our normal formation and strategy.  I believe Morocco did a little bunkering, especially in the second round, but I think they had practiced it before, so the players and the team were familiar with it.

Completely agree with this.  We have never played that strategy - even against the US and Mexico, we never played with 3 central mids, and we certainly never low-blocked to any great extent.  I don't think we had the personnel (Hutch, Piette, Oso?) or the tactical nous to pull that off against Croatia.  Some of us were calling for Herdman to test that kind of formation/tactic against some good teams in friendlies, but it never happened. 

[Free kick]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Isn't Eustaqiou exactly that guy? Hes box to box for porto, huge for build up play. Pops up with goals and assists recently. An 8 links the defenders to the attackers which is exactly what eustaqiou does.  Are you mistaking an 8 with a "10"?

I agree that the player selection raises some questions, but surely you are not saying that its not about our players. 
If we go with whatever you are suggesting, 4 defenders, a midfield trio without atiba and staq, and only one of david and larin, we would still have been absolutely destroyed. Player for player, we are so far behind croatia. They can play the game at a different tempo.  Our loss to them is 100% player related and our tactics may not have helped. 

I have never viewed Eustaquio as an 8.   He has always been a 6 from what i have seen of him in a Canada jersey.  An 8 does a lot of running into the gaps in the offensive end and then also comes back to support the deep lying midfielder (ie.; 6) on defensive duties.   The 8 usually covers a lot of room (going box to box) in a game and acts like a piston in an engine.    The #6 (the deep lying midfielder) has a more defensive focus but is responsible for launching the attacks with good passing abilities.   That's Eustaquio!, he is 6, not an 8.   Best example of an 8 is Steven Gerard.  Patrick Viera or Edgar Davids  is the best example of 6.     We definitely dont really have a 10 but the closest we have to an 8 might be Oso.   Also, an 8 should normally score more often than a 6.  

Edited December 15, 2022 by Free kick

[SoCalTransport]

24 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I have never viewed Eustaquio as an 8.   he has always been a 6.  An 8 does a lot of running into the gaps in the offensive end and then also comes back to support the deep lying midfielder (ie.; 6) on defensive duties.   The 8 usually covers a lot of room (going box to box) in a game and acts like a piston in an engine.    The #6 (the deep lying midfielder) has a more defensive focus but is responsible for launching the attacks with good passing abilities.   That's Eustaquio!, he is 6, not an 8.   Best example of an 8 is Steven Gerard.  Patrick Viera or Edgar Davids  is the best example of 6.     We definitely dont really have a 10 but the closest we have to an 8 might be Oso.   Also, an 8 should normally score more often than a 6.  

I know this is theoretical now, but I always thought Flores would fit an 8 perfectly. As of right now, he isn't living up to the hype he had before.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

I have never viewed Eustaquio as an 8.   He has always been a 6 from what i have seen of him in a Canada jersey.  An 8 does a lot of running into the gaps in the offensive end and then also comes back to support the deep lying midfielder (ie.; 6) on defensive duties.   The 8 usually covers a lot of room (going box to box) in a game and acts like a piston in an engine.    The #6 (the deep lying midfielder) has a more defensive focus but is responsible for launching the attacks with good passing abilities.   That's Eustaquio!, he is 6, not an 8.   Best example of an 8 is Steven Gerard.  Patrick Viera or Edgar Davids  is the best example of 6.     We definitely dont really have a 10 but the closest we have to an 8 might be Oso.   Also, an 8 should normally score more often than a 6.  

I agree with you in what an 8 or a 6 is. ( although most proper 6's dont have great passing abilities, but rather are able to keep possession cleanly and play simple passes out to a more creative player). 

As for what eustaquio is, i disagree. He plays as an 8 for porto. 

He almost always has the most KM ran in a game. His best form is recently where he broke into portos first team and starting popping up in the box to score goals, hes getting assists.  He is the link between the 6 and 10. 6 goal contributions over 11 league games. 2 goals in 6 champions league matches. These are stats of a player who is running into offensive gaps. 

Canada doesnt have a decent 6 other than piette and we have amazing attackers so staq usually has to play more defensive for us, but his skill set is suited as an 8 IMO. 

I would rather have a proper 6 and play staq as an 8 rather than staqq as a 6 and get a proper 8. 
I think casemiro compliments staq more than gundogan. 

[ECW]

Eustaquio does play a more restricted role for us. With Porto he frequently turns up in the opposing box and then drops back to make a 5th defender in his own box. There was at least one Champions League match in which he covered more km than any other player. 

[Kadenge]

16 minutes ago, ECW said:

Eustaquio does play a more restricted role for us. With Porto he frequently turns up in the opposing box and then drops back to make a 5th defender in his own box. There was at least one Champions League match in which he covered more km than any other player. 

Staq has been playing as a #8 for Porto over the past 10+ games. He's been more involved with attacking sequences and has goals and assists to show for it. Porto play with a 2 man center midfield. I would say both him and Otavio play as double #8s. Both involved on both sides of the ball

[Ottawafan]

4 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Umm my comment was saying that croatia was never a winnable game....I agree with you.  I was commenting that any formation changes would not change that we were simply outclassed. Therefore if changing tactics do not change the result, the answer is that our players are not good enough. I dont think a 4-5-1 would have won us the game. It may have been closer but playing with only 2 cbs leaves more gaps than having 3. If we really wanted to defend and counter, i think a 5-4-1 suits our players better. To defend and counter, I think 2 blocks (a 5 man and a 4 man) is more important than a 3rd cm.   We did this vs the USA in a 4-4-2 but i think adding another CB would be better against croatia. If we are actually trying to play, then a 3 man midfield is way more important. 

An 8 is not an attacking mid and I do not think we need our 8's to be good at attacking 1v1. I would rather have ball progressing 8's and wingers, strikers, and 10's being 1v1 oriented.  Eustaq doesnt have to beat players to progress the ball, he does this by finding gaps and connecting with players.

Sorry re read my comment I wasn’t taking a run at you. We are on the same page as to Croatia not being game we could have won. Think with a better adjustment from Herdman ( Belgium to Croatia ) going into the game we could have had a better showing. Would have liked to have seen JD drop more, like he did in the game in Hamilton. 

Eustaq to me is more of holding mid for Canada and not someone who pushes too far forward.  He doesn’t go too far east west either. But if you watched all three teams in group F, and all the successful squads in Qatar, they all have a guy or two in the mid that can play all over the pitch. Canada does not have that guy, even if Davies thinks he can. 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Ottawafan

[Bigandy]

45 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Sorry re read my comment I wasn’t taking a run at you. We are on the same page as to Croatia not being game we could have won. Think with a better adjustment from Herdman ( Belgium to Croatia ) going into the game we could have had a better showing. Would have liked to have seen JD drop more, like he did in the game in Hamilton. 

Eustaq to me is more of holding mid for Canada and not someone who pushes too far forward.  He doesn’t go too far east west either. But if you watched all three teams in group F, and all the successful squads in Qatar, they all have a guy or two in the mid that can play all over the pitch. Canada does not have that guy, even if Davies thinks he can. 

No worries. I didnt think you were taking a run but wasnt sure if their was  miscommunication or if i was misunderstanding something. 

Ya i wish JD got more involved. I was quite surprised with how little impact he seemed to have. 
I still think staq can be that guy, we would just need a proper #6 to provide coverage or even a top quality 8 where the two of them can take turns playing each role. 

[Corazon]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:04 PM, Bigandy said:

I agree with you in what an 8 or a 6 is. ( although most proper 6's dont have great passing abilities, but rather are able to keep possession cleanly and play simple passes out to a more creative player). 

As for what eustaquio is, i disagree. He plays as an 8 for porto. 

He almost always has the most KM ran in a game. His best form is recently where he broke into portos first team and starting popping up in the box to score goals, hes getting assists.  He is the link between the 6 and 10. 6 goal contributions over 11 league games. 2 goals in 6 champions league matches. These are stats of a player who is running into offensive gaps. 

Canada doesnt have a decent 6 other than piette and we have amazing attackers so staq usually has to play more defensive for us, but his skill set is suited as an 8 IMO. 

I would rather have a proper 6 and play staq as an 8 rather than staqq as a 6 and get a proper 8. 
I think casemiro compliments staq more than gundogan. 

I haven't thoroughly gone through this thread so maybe it was mentioned.  But Justin Smith may be the 6 we are looking for if he can develop into a player we all hope for based on his U20 performances and being owned by OGC Nice.  

I think we are all rooting for him to develop into a solid CB option for us but from what I've seen and read, he could become a 6 for us.  I used to have that role as a lock for Eustaquio but watching what he's been doing with Porto in a more advanced 8 role, I'd be fully supportive of using Staq at that 8.  If Smith pans out and becomes a CDM instead of CB, we may have a solid young trio between Smith, Kone & Eustaquio running our midfield.  

(Smith still has a lot to prove obviously but he looked fantastic for us with the U20s)