Expanded Gold Cup 2025

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Agreed.

What could they do though aside from strongly suggest teams send their best players?

I think this is why you won't see the big teams invited from Europe. I think they'll try to pick a couple of teams that missed the Euro or WC but still have "name" players. Norway with Haaland as a possible example.

[RS]

58 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Interesting...so the USSF has received no financial gain from hosting the GC in past yrs?

I'm sure there's some sort of arrangement there, but it's not as straightforward as it would be if the CSA was hosting friendlies or WCQ games.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

I like this but call it something other than the Gold Cup.  France vs Brazil for the championship of CONCACAF would be a farce.

[SpursFlu]

It's also a logistical dry run for the most complex World Cup ever. As a result I'm sure Vancouver and or Toronto will be involved 

 

 

[footballfreak]

On 2/2/2023 at 8:02 PM, Watchmen said:

Which UEFA teams do you think they'll be able to get?  I'm sort of assuming it's 2 teams that don't qualify for Euro 2024.

I assume the sides chosen will: 

A) Bring most eyeballs via either a large fanbase or superstar player.

B. Are good, but not “too good” such that they embarrass the region.

My best guesses:

AFC: 2 of China/Japan/South Korea. Wildcard possibilities: Indonesia, India, Thailand, Vietnam

CAF: Nigeria, South Africa. Wildcard: Egypt

CONMEBOL: 2 of Peru, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador. 

UEFA: Norway (Haaland), Ukraine 🇺🇦. Wildcard: Ireland (good crowds in the northeast).

[Obinna]

48 minutes ago, footballfreak said:

I assume the sides chosen will: 

A) Bring most eyeballs via either a large fanbase or superstar player.

B. Are good, but not “too good” such that they embarrass the region.

My best guesses:

AFC: 2 of China/Japan/South Korea. Wildcard possibilities: Indonesia, India, Thailand, Vietnam

CAF: Nigeria, South Africa. Wildcard: Egypt

CONMEBOL: 2 of Peru, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador. 

UEFA: Norway (Haaland), Ukraine 🇺🇦. Wildcard: Ireland (good crowds in the northeast).

I am intrigued by the idea of Norway due to the Haaland factor, and there'd be a ton of media fan fare over Ukraine, but I think the very top European sides are going to be interested in this. This will indeed be the dry run for the WC so I imagine it to have a Confederations Cup feel to it, possibly with the best teams from each region (as @Alex suggested).

Now that I have thought about it some more, I think it's likely that teams will push to be involved rather than us begging them to come over. It would be advantageous to teams so they can get a closer look at what to expect at the big dance. In fact, it would be the teams that have qualified (or are near locks to do so) that would push to be involved, because if you aren't going to qualify for 2026 the same incentive to get aclimatized is not there.

I really don't think we'll get that far down the quality trail where Norway and Ukraine are the chosen teams, nor do I think CONCACAF will ask such teams first. If you're CONCACAF you want the strongest teams possible, so you're not going to start your search with teams like Norway, you're going to start with France, then probably England, followed by Spain, Italy, Germany, etc. There are so many top teams in UEFA. 

In regards to CONMEBOL, I think Brazil and Argentina would love a chance to compete against two top UEFA teams in a competitive tournament. However, they'll be coming off a Copa America in the USA. Will they really care to basically do it all again? There's a bit of a doubt in my mind there, but I still see it happening. If not I think Colombia makes a lot of sense, given the massive ex-pat population in North America. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Obinna

[Obinna]

6 hours ago, Obinna said:

I am intrigued by the idea of Norway due to the Haaland factor, and there'd be a ton of media fan fare over Ukraine, but I think the very top European sides are going to be interested in this. This will indeed be the dry run for the WC so I imagine it to have a Confederations Cup feel to it, possibly with the best teams from each region (as @Alex suggested).

Now that I have thought about it some more, I think it's likely that teams will push to be involved rather than us begging them to come over. It would be advantageous to teams so they can get a closer look at what to expect at the big dance. In fact, it would be the teams that have qualified (or are near locks to do so) that would push to be involved, because if you aren't going to qualify for 2026 the same incentive to get aclimatized is not there.

I really don't think we'll get that far down the quality trail where Norway and Ukraine are the chosen teams, nor do I think CONCACAF will ask such teams first. If you're CONCACAF you want the strongest teams possible, so you're not going to start your search with teams like Norway, you're going to start with France, then probably England, followed by Spain, Italy, Germany, etc. There are so many top teams in UEFA. 

In regards to CONMEBOL, I think Brazil and Argentina would love a chance to compete against two top UEFA teams in a competitive tournament. However, they'll be coming off a Copa America in the USA. Will they really care to basically do it all again? There's a bit of a doubt in my mind there, but I still see it happening. If not I think Colombia makes a lot of sense, given the massive ex-pat population in North America. 

Come to think of it, Portugal and Spain's cultural and historical linkage with the Americas would make them fitting participants. Tremendous quality, obviously, but perhaps more than that. They would fit the theme in a way that a Germany or France woud not. Games against Brazil or Argentina, in the Americas no less, would certainly have fascinating undertones - Mexico as well. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Obinna

[Obinna]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:11 PM, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

@Obinna , your dream may come true!

We should merge both threads.

 

I am fine with the merge. Until then, allow me to draft up another mock (since fiction is getting a tad closer to reality):

Teams:

CAF: Morocco, Senegal

UEFA: Portugal, Spain

AFC: Japan, Korea

CONMEBOL: Brazil, Argentina

CONCACAF: Mexico, USA, Canada, Costa Rica, Panama, Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti, Curacao, Suriname, Guatemala, Trinidad and Tobago, Dominican Republic, Guyana, Nicarauga

Pot 1: Brazil, Argentina, USA, Mexico, Spain, Portugal

Pot 2: Morocco, Japan, Senegal, Korea, Costa Rica, Canada

Pot 3: Panama, Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador, Haiti, Curacao

Pot 4: Suriname, Guatemala, T&T, Dominican Republic, Guyana, Nicarauga

Group A: USA, Senegal, Panama, T&T

Group B: Mexico, Morocco, Honduras, Suriname

Group C : Brazil, Japan, Haiti, Guatemala

Group D : Argentina, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Dominican Republic

Group E: Spain, Korea, Jamaica, Guayana

Group F: Portugal, Canada, Curacao, Nicarauga 

Assuming top 2 plus 4 best 3rd place advance:

R16

USA vs Costa Rica

Panama vs Argentina

Senegal vs El Salvador

Honduras vs Portugal

Canada vs Mexico

Spain vs Japan

Brazil vs Korea

Jamaica vs Morocco

QF

USA vs Morocco

Argentina vs Canada (yes we upset Mexico)

Portugal vs Brazil

Spain vs Senegal

SF

USA vs Brazil

Spain vs Argentina

F

Brazil vs Argentina

 

[Kent]

I agree with the suggestion of not calling this the Gold Cup. I don't like guest nations in the confederation championship. It's like inviting Real Madrid to the MLS Playoffs and crowning them MLS Champions.

There have been several guest nations in the past in the Gold Cup, and they have usually finished in the top 4. Bringing 8 guest nations would make it very hard for the best team in CONCACAF to come from CONCACAF.

Note to any who don't know their Canada soccer history, South Korea were eliminated from the Group Stage in 2000 by a coin flip with eventual champion Canada. So they had a shot at a top 4 as well if they got a lucky coin flip (and then beat T&T, who were good in those days).

As for whether we should be inviting top teams or a rung or two lower, I don't think either is a great option. If you aren't inviting the best, what's the point? And if you are inviting the best from each region there is a very, very, real chance we don't even have a semi finalist from CONCACAF, let alone a winner.

And of course, for anyone who cares, the FIFA Ranking implications for CONCACAF teams are bad if the guest teams take away our chances at big point knockout round games (and to a lesser extent, group stage games), and take those points back home to their confederation. That in turn makes it harder to get CONCACAF teams into good pots in the 2026 World Cup (although the 3 host nations would likely be in the top pot regardless).

[SthMelbRed]

29 minutes ago, Kent said:

I agree with the suggestion of not calling this the Gold Cup. I don't like guest nations in the confederation championship. It's like inviting Real Madrid to the MLS Playoffs and crowning them MLS Champions.

There have been several guest nations in the past in the Gold Cup, and they have usually finished in the top 4. Bringing 8 guest nations would make it very hard for the best team in CONCACAF to come from CONCACAF.

Note to any who don't know their Canada soccer history, South Korea were eliminated from the Group Stage in 2000 by a coin flip with eventual champion Canada. So they had a shot at a top 4 as well if they got a lucky coin flip (and then beat T&T, who were good in those days).

As for whether we should be inviting top teams or a rung or two lower, I don't think either is a great option. If you aren't inviting the best, what's the point? And if you are inviting the best from each region there is a very, very, real chance we don't even have a semi finalist from CONCACAF, let alone a winner.

And of course, for anyone who cares, the FIFA Ranking implications for CONCACAF teams are bad if the guest teams take away our chances at big point knockout round games (and to a lesser extent, group stage games), and take those points back home to their confederation. That in turn makes it harder to get CONCACAF teams into good pots in the 2026 World Cup (although the 3 host nations would likely be in the top pot regardless).

Ironically, you've neglected to mention that there was a quarterfinal against Mexico to negotiate before getting to the T&T semi-final.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, SthMelbRed said:

Ironically, you've neglected to mention that there was a quarterfinal against Mexico to negotiate before getting to the T&T semi-final.

I don't know. Back in those days, beating Jack Warner was almost as tough as beating Mexico.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

Ironically, you've neglected to mention that there was a quarterfinal against Mexico to negotiate before getting to the T&T semi-final.

This is what I get for going completely off of memory and not double checking. I had it backwards. I was thinking it was T&T in the quarters (hence I mentioned South Korea needed a coin flip and a win against T&T to be a semi finalist) and then Mexico in the semi finals. You are correct though, it was the other way around. Mexico first, then T&T.

[Watchmen]

We talk a lot about the 2000 Gold Cup for obvious reasons, but I think the 2002 edition really gets overlooked.  Advance based on "drawing of lots" over Ecuador, losing to the US in the semi-finals on penalties (with Costa Rica waiting in the final), beating South Korea in the 3rd place match.

[An Observer]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

We talk a lot about the 2000 Gold Cup for obvious reasons, but I think the 2002 edition really gets overlooked.  Advance based on "drawing of lots" over Ecuador, losing to the US in the semi-finals on penalties (with Costa Rica waiting in the final), beating South Korea in the 3rd place match.

Honestly, I completely forgot about that one so you are right that it gets overlooked (at least by me)

[Watchmen]

2 minutes ago, An Observer said:

Honestly, I completely forgot about that one so you are right that it gets overlooked (at least by me)

I'm not going to lie, I had to look up some of the details. 😄  I remembered them advancing on lots or a coin toss, and I remembered them beating South Korea and finishing 3rd, but I forgot they lost on penalties in the semi-finals or that it was Ecuador they had faced in the group.

[harrycoyster]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:06 PM, Kadenge said:

Interesting...so the USSF has received no financial gain from hosting the GC in past yrs?

CONCACAF distributes the money after the tournament. They keep a portion, set aside prize money and the rest is split evenly across all CONCACAF teams. The host country has the advantage of having CONCACAF funds to set up the event and largely keep proceeds from non-ticket sales...concessions, jerseys, etc.

According to the USSF tax filings the last ten years of Gold Cups were all profitable, but cumulatively didn't match the profits of the 2016 Copa America, in which the USSF was cut directly into the profits and made around $50mil USD.

[QBCS]

Maybe some "Tier 2" UEFA & CONMEBOL Teams, with big NA Fan bases
My guesses,
UEFA: 
Scotland, Poland or Belgium, 
CONMEBOL:
Uruguay, Colombia
Asia:
Bring out the big guns for Asia. Japan, and SK.
These are the teams i'd like to see at it. Whether they'll go with teams like this, I don't know. A lot of people in this forum most definitely have a better understanding of chances than I do.

[Treppy2]

21 hours ago, Kent said:

I agree with the suggestion of not calling this the Gold Cup. I don't like guest nations in the confederation championship. It's like inviting Real Madrid to the MLS Playoffs and crowning them MLS Champions.

There have been several guest nations in the past in the Gold Cup, and they have usually finished in the top 4. Bringing 8 guest nations would make it very hard for the best team in CONCACAF to come from CONCACAF.

Note to any who don't know their Canada soccer history, South Korea were eliminated from the Group Stage in 2000 by a coin flip with eventual champion Canada. So they had a shot at a top 4 as well if they got a lucky coin flip (and then beat T&T, who were good in those days).

As for whether we should be inviting top teams or a rung or two lower, I don't think either is a great option. If you aren't inviting the best, what's the point? And if you are inviting the best from each region there is a very, very, real chance we don't even have a semi finalist from CONCACAF, let alone a winner.

And of course, for anyone who cares, the FIFA Ranking implications for CONCACAF teams are bad if the guest teams take away our chances at big point knockout round games (and to a lesser extent, group stage games), and take those points back home to their confederation. That in turn makes it harder to get CONCACAF teams into good pots in the 2026 World Cup (although the 3 host nations would likely be in the top pot regardless).

Gold Cup guests South Korea (2002), South Africa (2005) and Qatar (2021) were invited to the tournament to aid in their preparation for hosting a World Cup. In fairness and in a similar vein, I propose that Canada is allowed to enter two teams in the 24-team 2025 Gold Cup. (Mexico and the U.S. have previously hosted World Cups, so they don't need the practice — one team for each of them.) Canada RED would play all group-stage matches in Toronto. Canada WHITE would play all group-stage matches in Vancouver. This would test out both World Cup venues and would likely sell out six home matches instead of three. How we divide the teams, I'm not sure. Maybe players with a connection to Brampton go to Canada RED and all other players go to Canada WHITE?

(I'm joking about this suggestion, but maybe Vic can make it happen. Jack Warner would have done it if Trinidad had ever co-hosted the Gold Cup!)

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

Some news about this:

https://theathletic.com/5208543/2024/01/18/club-world-cup-2025-us-gold-cup-location/?amp=1

For those of us not paying for the Athletic:

https://worldsoccertalk.com/amp/news/gold-cup-and-club-world-cup-to-divide-and-conquer-us-in-2025-20240118-WST-483985.html

 

 

- This Gold Cup will be mostly or exclusively in the Western half of the USA (there goes the dream of smaller CONCACAF countries hosting!)

- Tournament dates will indeed overlap with the big Club World Cup also in the USA (this will likely force players like Eustáquio or Davies to pick which tournament they will play in)

- If FIFA World Cup 2026 stadiums are being tested, perhaps Vancouver has a shot of hosting a match?

Edited January 18 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[Shway]

18 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

This Gold Cup will be mostly or exclusively in the Western half of the USA (there goes the dream of smaller CONCACAF countries hosting!)

You would think they would try somewhere else...you know like Canada.
But with the expansion of the tournament, who knows if it's even realistic? 

I think Concacaf will have to have some real hard conversations about the frequency and validity of this tournament going forward. It needs to happen every 4 years, and to maintain the frequency of the money/tournaments introduce a U23 Tournament.

It's the only way.

[SpursFlu]

I think every 4 years gold cup, every 4 years, Copa America. Makes sense to me. Tournament every 2nd year

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

2 minutes ago, Shway said:

You would think they would try somewhere else...you know like Canada.
But with the expansion of the tournament, who knows if it's even realistic? 

I think Concacaf will have to have some real hard conversations about the frequency and validity of this tournament going forward. It needs to happen every 4 years, and to maintain the frequency of the money/tournaments introduce a U23 Tournament.

It's the only way.

This would be a superb idea.

Especially since the cut the U23 (Olympic Qualifying tournament).

To respond to your point @SpursFlu, if CONMEBOL wanted, they could do a regular Copa America every 4 years and a joint one with CONCACAF (to rival the Euros) every 4 years.

[Obinna]

48 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Some news about this:

https://theathletic.com/5208543/2024/01/18/club-world-cup-2025-us-gold-cup-location/?amp=1

For those of us not paying for the Athletic:

https://worldsoccertalk.com/amp/news/gold-cup-and-club-world-cup-to-divide-and-conquer-us-in-2025-20240118-WST-483985.html

 

 

- This Gold Cup will be mostly or exclusively in the Western half of the USA (there goes the dream of smaller CONCACAF countries hosting!)

- Tournament dates will indeed overlap with the big Club World Cup also in the USA (this will likely force players like Eustáquio or Davies to pick which tournament they will play in)

- If FIFA World Cup 2026 stadiums are being tested, perhaps Vancouver has a shot of hosting a match?

Not only that, but Buchanan would be missing for Inter and David, depending on where he goes, could be out too. Chelsea are qualified and Italy has one more spot and as we know, all the big Italian side were linked with him at one point.

BUT...This could be a blessing in disguise, since we need some competitive games for our squad players.

On the other hand, the same could be said about the last Gold Cup and look how that turned out, we were underwhelming and things didn't come together quickly enough.

By summer 2025, maybe Ali Ahmed is playing for Sporting, Saliba and Choniere are somewhere in Belgium like a Genk or Antwerp, Jayden Nelson has been sold to a mid-table Ligue 1 or Bundesliga club, Theo has found a new permanent home in the Championship or better, LDF has become a true Fulham squad player, Jebbison is committed and playing in a top 5 league, etc.

In short, the depth may look way better in 18 months from now, so maybe we've matured to the point by then where we can leave out Eustaquio, Davies and Buchanan and let the rest of the guys pick up the slack and get some critical experience.

Especially the wings with Davies and Buchanan out, it would really be a much needed chance for the likes of Nelson and Corbeanu. Going to be tough for them otherwise. And in the middle, no Eustaquio would be a great chance for Saliba, Ahmed, or Choniere. I hope all 3 are in Europe by then.

Edited January 18 by Obinna

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

This would be a superb idea.

Especially since the cut the U23 (Olympic Qualifying tournament).

To respond to your point @SpursFlu, if CONMEBOL wanted, they could do a regular Copa America every 4 years and a joint one with CONCACAF (to rival the Euros) every 4 years.

I don't think there's interest from CONMEBOL in doing one every 2 years, but I'm hopeful there's enough interest in simply making it a joint tournament every time (but not always in the US). I do think it's a shame they moved it to the same year as the Euros. The year in between the WC and Euros always seemed like a better spot.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Not only that, but Buchanan would be missing for Inter and David, depending on where he goes, could be out too. Chelsea are qualified and Italy has one more spot and as we know, all the big Italian side were linked with him at one point.

BUT...This could be a blessing in disguise, since we need some competitive games for our squad players.

On the other hand, the same could be said about the last Gold Cup and look how that turned out, we were underwhelming and things didn't come together quickly enough.

By summer 2025, maybe Ali Ahmed is playing for Sporting, Saliba and Choniere are somewhere in Belgium like a Genk or Antwerp, Jayden Nelson has been sold to a mid-table Ligue 1 or Bundesliga club, Theo has found a new permanent home in the Championship or better, LDF has become a true Fulham squad player, Jebbison is committed and playing in a top 5 league, etc.

In short, the depth may look way better in 18 months from now, so maybe we've matured to the point by then where we can leave out Eustaquio, Davies and Buchanan and let the rest of the guys pick up the slack and get some critical experience.

Especially the wings with Davies and Buchanan out, it would really be a much needed chance for the likes of Nelson and Corbeanu. Going to be tough for them otherwise. And in the middle, no Eustaquio would be a great chance for Saliba, Ahmed, or Choniere. I hope all 3 are in Europe by then.

Especially since its a gold cup, I wouldnt hate that at all.  I feel like we are on the verge of our B/C team (comparable to last gold cup) is going to be A minus in quality. The floor of almost all our positions is getting raised quite a bit higher in the next few years. 

The CM's you named are going to be better than all our CM's during the WC minus staq and kone. Nelson, millar, corbeanu and shaf could all be A- players for us. JRR/Jebbo/Colyn/Brym could be A- guys. At CB it feels like all our guys regardless of who we call are B+ to A-. However, maybe stefanovic, LDF, JKL, smith? play at the GC. If our regular fullbacks want a break (sam, davies, richie, AJ) then we drop down to a C+/B- option with franklin and petrasso? zbg?.