Canada and the 2024 Copa America

[Obinna]

11 hours ago, Shway said:

it sounds good to say that (your bolded part) but it doesn't make sense at all when you look at our best players. Tajon hasn't played in a front 3 for a long time. Millar hasn't played in a front 3 in what feels like never (Basel played 352, Charlton played a 352). So why does his formation make sense? If we are putting our most dangerous player further away from the net in a defensive position  but then saying there is someone responsible in front of him who can't do what he does going forward. Make it make sense to me. 

I am not advocating for Davies to play FB, but what you are saying about Tajon applies to Davies as well when we strip out the Real Madrid encounter, which seems like an isolated event.

Personally, I think Davies-David-Tajon should form a front 3, with Choniere or Kone (or I guess Ahmed) pressing behind them, but I get your point about Larin always scoring, so one alternative is to plug him in and put David at the 10 (something I have wanted to see for years). 

Can't get behind Millar at left back though. I would rather start Millar in the front 3 and put Davies at LB if you made me choose. Or if you are really against Davies at LB, but want Millar on the field, why not drop Tajon to LB (he played there at times for Brugge) and push up Millar. Just don't see why we'd play Millar there when he's never played there, and he has the same basic virtues as Tajon going forward, so play him forward is what I would say, or drop him to the bench and play Adekugbe or Laryea at left back.

But hey if Marsch develops Millar into a top left back for us then great, I just don't see it.

[costarg]

11 hours ago, Shway said:

A lot of players are developed in a position as youth, but then get transitioned into a different position as a professional. Its natural. Johnston was never a fullback as a youth player but look at him now.

Verrrrry few players who are strikers at youth maintain that position. It's the same reason why wingers convert to fullbacks as they get older. 

Millars work rate isn't underrated here, and his defensive abilities is probably understated. Pair that with him being able to whip in across is why I think he could be a fullback.

I'm sure he could figure it out with lots of practice, I just prefer that test not happen in CANMNT's lab when we have other guys that can fill that role more than adequately.

But ya, you're right, lots of players develop into different roles.  Tajon started playing some FB around 20-21 I believe?  While Liam is 25 and has never played a defensive position.  Even at WB it's very evident he puts in the work and effort and has the athletic ability to be that two way player, but in every action I've seen in the backfield he doesn't have that natural defensive instinct and quality.  We can always as Spitfire for his thoughts.

 

[costarg]

11 hours ago, Shway said:

My last spam of post, I think Jesse's success will come from using a player in a position that we think wouldn't work. 

After Herdman, I've just had it with the tinkering, tweaking and shoehorning.  A little is ok, but it was just soo over the top.  I'm dying to just see a reset and some basic common sense.  We can rebuild from there.   

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

2 minutes ago, costarg said:

I'm sure he could figure it out with lots of practice, I just prefer that test not happen in CANMNT's lab when we have other guys that can fill that role more than adequately.

But ya, you're right, lots of players develop into different roles.  Tajon started playing some FB around 20-21 I believe?  While Liam is 25 and has never played a defensive position.  Even at WB it's very evident he puts in the work and effort and has the athletic ability to be that two way player, but in every action I've seen in the backfield he doesn't have that natural defensive instinct and quality.  We can always as Spitfire for his thoughts.

 

@spitfirewants him up and scoring, and too right, -  if I was him.

But when have you watched him and seen he doesn't have "natural defensive instinct."

He has more than Davies, I will say that.

 

 

[TGAA_Star]

But seeing the quality of these teams before we go to Copa America...I am looking forward to these 2 friendly games but at the same time for us Canadians, we have to bring our full A squad to Copa America which means for our 26 man squad, we have to pull out our big guns and can't afford to leave anyone off

[costarg]

11 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

@spitfirewants him up and scoring, and too right, -  if I was him.

But when have you watched him and seen he doesn't have "natural defensive instinct."

He has more than Davies, I will say that.

 

 

Most recently, I watched this game vs Leicester.  Granted it is Leicester and they pretty much dominated the league.  Millar was the best Preston player by far, yet got caught out repeatedly on the defensive end.  You can see a few in this clip.  I'm not singling him out, just showing he is not a FB.  One does not become a fullback at 25 just because he works hard and can run a lot, it's a lot more complicated than that.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Just now, costarg said:

Most recently, I watched this game vs Leicester.  Granted it is Leicester and they pretty much dominated the league.  Millar was the best Preston player by far, yet got caught out repeatedly on the defensive end.  You can see a few in this clip.  I'm not singling him out, just showing he is not a FB.  One does not become a fullback at 25 just because he works hard and can run a lot, it's a lot more complicated than that.

That what I said about Davies - against a very good opponent - and you tried to dismiss it.  It was one bad game - you said.

What would be the difference?

 

[Shway]

40 minutes ago, costarg said:

 One does not become a fullback at 25 just because he works hard and can run a lot, it's a lot more complicated than that.

You'd be surprised, it's not that complicated.

A lot of wingers become fullbacks because their offensive output isn't the same or consistent. It's an age old debate that most fullbacks are failed wingers. 

[narduch]

Just saw Venezuela released their preliminary roster. I wish Canada could too

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

For what it's worth, at Leeds, Marsch played a handful of wide players as 10s, especially before he had Aaronson.

He might consider playing  Millar there.

 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

That what I said about Davies - against a very good opponent - and you tried to dismiss it.  It was one bad game - you said.

What would be the difference?

This is what i said: "I'm not singling him out, just showing he is not a FB.  One does not become a fullback at 25 just because he works hard and can run a lot, it's a lot more complicated than that."

Davies did not start playing FB for a national team at 25.  He's been playing FB for years at his regular club.  It's not the same discussion.  Two totally different things.

[costarg]

40 minutes ago, Shway said:

You'd be surprised, it's not that complicated.

A lot of wingers become fullbacks because their offensive output isn't the same or consistent. It's an age old debate that most fullbacks are failed wingers. 

That's a very wide brush.  Just cause it happens sometimes, doesn't mean it works all of the time.

[costarg]

34 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

For what it's worth, at Leeds, Marsch played a handful of wide players as 10s, especially before he had Aaronson.

He might consider playing  Millar there.

 

Yup, Marsch is all about tempo and athletics.  He will not play a mid who can't run hard and fast.  Not having a real 10 kind benefits us here.  Curious to see who he puts there, it might even be Davies.  I kinda hope not, but we'll see.

[Unnamed Trialist]

In the CBS Golazo podcast with Conrad and Charlie Davies, Marsch said he'd begin to work with the team on May 30.

The international match calendar starts on June 3. So I don't know if he is talking about a call-up that day the previous week, or starting a camp that day with some guys.

Some players, all of those in MLS, or Cornelius in Sweden, would have a matchday on June 1-2, the weekend. So the logical day to have everyone in camp is June 3. With MLS playing the 1st, they'd arrive the 2nd so it works. Just fly them directly to Netherlands.  

I also see that Sweden stops after that weekend until July. Norway does too.

So a camp in Netherlands starting Monday June 3, perhaps with a few others coming in earlier. Since they are paying for us to be there, it could happen. 

He also said he'd call in a big group, to get to see players, so that suggests as well that we have the money to do so. We would take those funds from our appearance fees from Netherlands and France. 

June 3, 4, 5: train in Rotterdam

June 6: match vs Netherlands

June 7, 8: fly to Bordeaux and train in Bordeaux

June 9: match vs. France

June 10: Fly to North America for a pre-Copa camp. This could be in Canada, then moving to our opener a couple days before. 

 

[TGAA_Star]

56 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

In the CBS Golazo podcast with Conrad and Charlie Davies, Marsch said he'd begin to work with the team on May 30.

The international match calendar starts on June 3. So I don't know if he is talking about a call-up that day the previous week, or starting a camp that day with some guys.

Some players, all of those in MLS, or Cornelius in Sweden, would have a matchday on June 1-2, the weekend. So the logical day to have everyone in camp is June 3. With MLS playing the 1st, they'd arrive the 2nd so it works. Just fly them directly to Netherlands.  

I also see that Sweden stops after that weekend until July. Norway does too.

So a camp in Netherlands starting Monday June 3, perhaps with a few others coming in earlier. Since they are paying for us to be there, it could happen. 

He also said he'd call in a big group, to get to see players, so that suggests as well that we have the money to do so. We would take those funds from our appearance fees from Netherlands and France. 

June 3, 4, 5: train in Rotterdam

June 6: match vs Netherlands

June 7, 8: fly to Bordeaux and train in Bordeaux

June 9: match vs. France

June 10: Fly to North America for a pre-Copa camp. This could be in Canada, then moving to our opener a couple days before. 

 

I like that and him getting an immediate start after the 30th hopefully means he and Canada Soccer unveil the 26 man squad for Copa on the same day

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 minutes ago, TGAA_Star said:

I like that and him getting an immediate start after the 30th hopefully means he and Canada Soccer unveil the 26 man squad for Copa on the same day

Even if players are not in season, they still need to be released by their clubs if under contract. I gather, from what he is saying about being in contact personally with players, that the arrangements will have been made even if they are not announced until that last week of May.

[Shway]

On 5/18/2024 at 9:15 AM, Obinna said:

...Or if you are really against Davies at LB, but want Millar on the field, why not drop Tajon to LB (he played there at times for Brugge) and push up Millar. Just don't see why we'd play Millar there when he's never played there, and he has the same basic virtues as Tajon going forward...

You can't sincerely mean this? Currently they both play the same position, but Tajon is more skillful, more dangerous 1v1 or going forward.

Theres a reason why Tajon is at Inter, and Millar is at PNE, but somehow we can suggest the latter to play in front of the former?

It screams of when Bale played behind Niko Kranjcar because Redknapp wanted to get Kranjcar on the field somewhere. 

[costarg]

41 minutes ago, Shway said:

You can't sincerely mean this? Currently they both play the same position, but Tajon is more skillful, more dangerous 1v1 or going forward.

Theres a reason why Tajon is at Inter, and Millar is at PNE, but somehow we can suggest the latter to play in front of the former?

It screams of when Bale played behind Niko Kranjcar because Redknapp wanted to get Kranjcar on the field somewhere. 

I see what you're saying.  Agree that Tajon's team is at a higher level at the moment.  Probably a bigger attacking threat, if he's not too rusty.  But all that still doesn't mean Millar should or could play FB.  Tajon has played FB, Millar never has.

National team is not the place for this experiment.  We have big games coming up, new coach, I'd aim to keep things as simple as possible for the next matches.  The only place that requires experimentation is the CB combo. 

For the rest, let logic and common sense dictate.  Lets just use the round wheel.  Who is in form?  Who is the best at which position?  

[narduch]

TLN will be showing some of the Copa warm up friendlies (not Canada)

Noticed while watching the Inter game but can't recall exactly which ones now. Will post it if I do see it

Edited May 19 by narduch

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

Who is in form?  Who is the best at which position?  

But that is what Biello did with 3 strikers. 

And what Herman partially did not playing 3 midfielders against Croatia. 

 

And you say no experimentation...except were you want changes (at another crucial position against massively talented opponents)

 

There is a balance to be struck, the formation needs to work  and we need look at "natural" position and form.  Fitness will have a huge impact on this particular position and you have to sometimes make big moves when that is a factor.

 

Side note:  I thought I saw that that Kloke said somewhere that Marsch told the Athletic? he didn't plan on playing Davies at fullback.  But I can't find it.

[narduch]

50 minutes ago, narduch said:

TLN will be showing some of the Copa warm up friendlies (not Canada)

Noticed while watching the Inter game but can't recall exactly which ones now. Will post it if I do see it

Ok this is what they have:

Fri. June 14 - 830pm ET - Peru v El Salvador. 

Sat. June 15 - 5pm ET - Colombia v Bolivia

Sun. June 16 - 3:30 pm ET - Ecuador v Honduras. 

Assume these will have Spanish commentary.

Not the most interesting match ups but at least we can scout one of our Group opponents 

Edited May 19 by narduch

[costarg]

25 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

But that is what Biello did with 3 strikers. 

Seriously man, no offence, but are you a lawyer?  You can't just pick one part of a statement and ignore the rest to make a point.  You did the same thing yesterday.

"For the rest, let logic and common sense dictate.  Lets just use the round wheel"

How is putting Larin, Ugbo and David in a 3 striker formation common sense and logical?  No one thought that made any sense, even with the win we were all questioning the lineup.  "Play who is in form" doesn't mean playing 6 wingers.  It means you pick a system and formation based on the players you have.

50 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

And what Herman partially did not playing 3 midfielders against Croatia. 

As much as I love Hutch and glad he got to play in a World Cup, no one will claim he was "in form" or even our best in that position at that point.  Go back to the game reports or game thread if you need a refresher.

50 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Side note:  I thought I saw that that Kloke said somewhere that Marsch told the Athletic? he didn't plan on playing Davies at fullback.  But I can't find it.

As discussed, I'm ok with Davies playing the wing.  The team and mids need to know how to play with him so he's not running into walls.  Biellos system and formation was not working vs a mediocre Trinidad.  But dude, no offence, I'm not gonna keep having this discussion.  You know my stance.

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

22 minutes ago, costarg said:

Seriously man, no offence, but are you a lawyer?  You can't just pick one part of a statement and ignore the rest to make a point.  You did the same thing yesterday.

"For the rest, let logic and common sense dictate.  Lets just use the round wheel"

I'm no lawyer but you pick and choose when to use your rules. And then pretend "everyone knows" they represent logic.

 

Logic is a very broad term and can mean a lot of things. In normal English, you make a broad statement and follow it with details.

To me, the part you quote above is broad enough to be pretty meaningless.  Luckily, like in normal English, you followed that with details ie. What you meant by logical - form and "natural" position. Or at least that's what your paragraph indicated to me.

To get upset that I thought your one paragraph contained one argument is pretty weird to me.

39 minutes ago, costarg said:

As much as I love Hutch and glad he got to play in a World Cup, no one will claim he was "in form" or even our best in that position at that point.  Go back to the game reports or game thread if you need a refresher.

Which why I said "partially".  If Kone replaces Hutch, it's still two.  The better, natural, and/or in-form front 4 - Larin, David, Davies and Buchanan were  superior players to any more defensive 3rd midfielder we would add.

But I thought adding an inferior defensive player was still vital because team trumps individual quality sometimes.(Like managers do at centre back sometimes).

You seem to agree...sometimes.  

 

 

I just added the last bit as an honest question to anyone.  

 

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, Shway said:

You can't sincerely mean this? Currently they both play the same position, but Tajon is more skillful, more dangerous 1v1 or going forward.

Theres a reason why Tajon is at Inter, and Millar is at PNE, but somehow we can suggest the latter to play in front of the former?

It screams of when Bale played behind Niko Kranjcar because Redknapp wanted to get Kranjcar on the field somewhere. 

I mean that Millar has never played left back, unless I am mistaken.

Tajon has played left back for Brugge on multiple occasions. I am not talking about left wing back, I am talking about left full back. It seemed like you were suggesting that Millar play left back for us, but why put him in a position he's never played in when we have guys like Laryea and Adekugbe who have, or you can play Tajon there, who has played the position?

Now if your argument is that Tajon is a better attacker than Millar, then fair enough but put a left back in there like Adekugbe or someone like Laryea who has proven they can play left back.

Again, my preference right now is for Tajon and Davies to be high up the pitch.

[spitfire]

Millars played full lb a few times (Basel and Kilmarnock I think) but only late in games or when someone got injured in a game..

I personally wouldn’t   like to see him play there it’s not really to his strengths.. agree about Tajon being further along in his pathway and more polished (skill/1v1) atm but let’s see where that goes in the future ..  that being said I’d love to see Liam on a very very good team surrounded by the players Tajon is and see how he looks then (no disrespect to PNE)

I’d still like to find a way to get Liam and Davies on the same side somehow… laryea and Tajon on the other … that excited me…

 

Edited May 19 by spitfire