Canada and the 2024 Copa America

[An Observer]

3 hours ago, ballerz said:

What is the infatuation of calling the French national team the African team, especially for a country which is really Italy?

Seems like casual racism to me.  Calling a SA side Italian doesn’t have the same sting.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, An Observer said:

Seems like casual racism to me.  Calling a SA side Italian doesn’t have the same sting.

Casual racism. That's a new one ...

I don't want to defend this chant, because I am not a fan, but it certainly doesn't deserve the reaction it is getting, at least to me (as a Nigerian Canadian). Yeah, the French team are full of Africans...so? 

Are people really this triggered, or are they looking for an outlet to vent their rage? Either way, the reaction to this by some people is just as pathetic as the chant itself. Messi should apologize for his teammates? Give me a break.

Let them have their stupid little chant and move on, I say. 

[jonovision]

52 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Casual racism. That's a new one ...

I don't want to defend this chant, because I am not a fan, but it certainly doesn't deserve the reaction it is getting, at least to me (as a Nigerian Canadian). Yeah, the French team are full of Africans...so? 

Are people really this triggered, or are they looking for an outlet to vent their rage? Either way, the reaction to this by some people is just as pathetic as the chant itself. Messi should apologize for his teammates? Give me a break.

Let them have their stupid little chant and move on, I say. 

Speaking of moving on, isn't singing that chant about an opponent they beat two years ago a strange way to celebrate winning the Copa America?

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, jonovision said:

Speaking of moving on, isn't singing that chant about an opponent they beat two years ago a strange way to celebrate winning the Copa America?

I guess this is just a victory chant and their win over France is a big part of the folklore for this championship group.

[jonovision]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I guess this is just a victory chant and their win over France is a big part of the folklore for this championship group.

If your folklore includes a chant denigrating a long-past opponent as less-than because some of their players have roots in another country (like every white Argentinian, for example), then you might have an issue with race.

Edited July 18 by jonovision

[Obinna]

Just now, jonovision said:

If your folklore includes a chant denigrating a long-past opponent as less-than because some of their players have roots in another country (like every white Argentinian, for example), than you might have an issue with race.

The insinuation to me (from them) is that France couldn't win with white French, they had to depend on fast, strong, skilled Africans.

That's not exactly an L for Africans lol

I guess Black French could be upset they are being differentiated as "non-french", but we make hyphenated distinctions all the time in the west. I can see how that is confusing for Latinos who generally don't use such identifiers.

How many Argentines identify as Italian-Argentinian, for instance. Honest question.

[Obinna]

Either way, distasteful chant which doesn't deserve the attention it's getting.

[sebdeserio]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

Casual racism. That's a new one ...

I don't want to defend this chant, because I am not a fan, but it certainly doesn't deserve the reaction it is getting, at least to me (as a Nigerian Canadian). Yeah, the French team are full of Africans...so? 

Are people really this triggered, or are they looking for an outlet to vent their rage? Either way, the reaction to this by some people is just as pathetic as the chant itself. Messi should apologize for his teammates? Give me a break.

Let them have their stupid little chant and move on, I say. 

So Enzo’s many French teammates at Chelsea are overreacting by speaking out against this and calling it racism? It’s a transphobic chant too, as even thought the live got stopped before it there’s a very crude line about Mbappe engaging in intercourse with someone who’s transgender.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Not sure all of the people commenting on this are fully up to speed with what was actually sung. If the lyrics I have seen are accurate they go after Mbappe for an all too predictable reason that has nothing to do with his African ancestry. 

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, sebdeserio said:

So Enzo’s many French teammates at Chelsea are overreacting by speaking out against this and calling it racism? It’s a transphobic chant too, as even thought the live got stopped before it there’s a very crude line about Mbappe engaging in intercourse with someone who’s transgender.

Did he?

[sebdeserio]

Just now, Obinna said:

Did he?

I don’t know I’m not privy to his personal life but if he did would it still not be transphobic?

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Not sure all of the people commenting on this are fully up to speed with what was actually sung. If the lyrics I have seen are accurate they go after Mbappe for an all too predictable reason that has nothing to do with his African ancestry. 

There is a part of the song that says they all come from Angola but the passport says France. 

Angola is a former Portuguese colony so this whole chant isn't even accurate. The whole thing is too foolish to even take seriously imo.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

47 minutes ago, jonovision said:

If your folklore includes a chant denigrating a long-past opponent as less-than because some of their players have roots in another country (like every white Argentinian, for example), then you might have an issue with race.

None of it appropriate and we work to make it better.

 

"Long- past" is a bit of a stretch. Clubs have chants about clubs and players that they haven't played in over a decade. And they have more games to form new memories.

 

And before the French start throwing the first stone, their players have multiple instances of making more direct racist comments against people who were not even opponents. Griezmann and Dembele were the most recent that come to mind.

Edited July 18 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Obinna]

10 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

None of it appropriate and we work to make it better.

 

"Long- past" is a bit of a stretch. Clubs have chants about clubs and players that they haven't played in over a decade. And they have more games to form new memories.

 

And before the French start throwing the the first stone, their players have multiple instances of making more direct racist comments against people who were not even opponents. Griezmann and Dembele were the most recent that come to mind.

Dembele is not a popular man amongst some Japanese, let's put it that way. 

[InglewoodJack]

The chant is stupid because it’s racist- they’re not saying that France has African players, the implication is that these players aren’t French because they’re African. Something I find particularly annoying about Argentina singing this is that they act all high and mighty about this racial purity they have when ultimately, their history and ethnic makeup is pretty much the same thing as countries like Canada and the US, but since they’re a small poor South American country, they feel like they have some special privilege to call our other countries for being more diverse than them. They’ll go and accuse Canada of having all of these immigrant players, France of having African players all of this, but it’s apparently fine for Alexis Mac Allister, the most Scottish sounding name and the most Scottish looking man in the world, to claim he is an Argentinian. Their national hero, Messi, of course, got to Europe as a kid because of his Catalan roots and Italian ancestry, and has lived in Spain and the US most of his life. But he’s a real Argentinian, unlike Mbappe, the fake French who has lived and played in his home country for his entire life.

They have absolutely zero self awareness of who they are and their place in the world, and have a strange mix of western arrogance and small country world little man syndrome so they feel empowered to go and tell other countries what it means to be a native. It’s embarrassing for them and insulting for everyone. 
 

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Did he?

Ines Rau is a very famous trans model and there are many pictures of them hanging out during a specific period of time. Mbappe didn’t say anything about them dating, I think he is generally private about his personal life, but the tabloids took it and ran. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

13 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

They have absolutely zero self awareness of who they are and their place in the world, and have a strange mix of western arrogance and small country world little man syndrome so they feel empowered to go and tell other countries what it means to be a native. It’s embarrassing for them and insulting for everyone. 

It is.

And I think we move towards knowing each other better and thereby thinking more before we speak (or sing.)

That said, footballers do a lot of stupid things and directly facing up Argentina a couple times has not made me further single them out in that. 

[InglewoodJack]

9 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

It is.

And I think we move towards knowing each other better and thereby thinking more before we speak (or sing.)

That said, footballers do a lot of stupid things and directly facing up Argentina a couple times has not made me further single them out in that. 

Footballers, and athletes in general are not exactly known for their intelligence necessarily, and i'm sure Argentina sees this chant the same way the English see "10 german bombers" or Scottish/Irish/whoever feel about Lizzy's In A Box- offensive, but not beyond what you'd expect from sports fans. 

I guess part of this comes from being from Canada, a country that is often considered "fake" or "impure" because our people come from all over the world and we ended up here a relatively short amount of time ago, but these same rules don't apply to Central or South American countries, whose people come from similar places as ours, and part of that seems, to me, to have to do with their economic situation and how they see themselves compared to other more powerful countries. You mix that in with the arrogance of being a footballing powerhouse, and it makes for quite an ignorant mix. They feel like they're swinging upwards by calling out france, but they're clearly open to swinging downwards, like how their fans had all of those colourful things to say about Moise Bombito, for example. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

49 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I guess part of this comes from being from Canada, a country that is often considered "fake" or "impure" because our people come from all over the world and we ended up here a relatively short amount of time ago

I guess I can never remember feeling that from people in other countries.  Maybe my specific life experience and where I lived.

We are boring

is what I got as the biggest negative.  Maybe our politics were bad (in the States).

 

I look at this way.  I grew up where Native people and old European immigrants were normal from day one.  So were doctors from South Asian.  I didn't become friends with those doctors' kids and kids from East Asia and South East Asia (China and the Phillipines mostly) until I hit high school because I was a county school kid up until then.  I had very little contact with peoples beyond that until I left home.  Along the way for the rest of my life, I met real people from the rest of world.  You realise they are a mixture of good and bad, mostly good. 

I think that's what actually solves racism in the end, knowing more people and I think forcing stuff slows down the process.  Maybe naive, but I can personally can see where things are made worse by focusing on differences. A bit like the quote about democracy. 

Edited July 18 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Something I find particularly annoying about Argentina singing this is that they act all high and mighty about this racial purity they have when ultimately, their history and ethnic makeup is pretty much the same thing as countries like Canada and the US, but since they’re a small poor South American country, they feel like they have some special privilege to call our other countries for being more diverse than them. 

False. The ethnic makeup of Argentina is very much Argentinian. They are not diverse in culture compared to a country like France, USA or Canada. 

Racial diversity is not equivalent to ethnic diversity in this instance.

47 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

 

They have absolutely zero self awareness of who they are and their place in the world, and have a strange mix of western arrogance and small country world little man syndrome so they feel empowered to go and tell other countries what it means to be a native. It’s embarrassing for them and insulting for everyone. 

Semantics aside, I get the thrust of what you are saying, but after spending years dating a Latina I think I can better understand their world view. Generally speaking, their society has been racial mixed for long enough to where race is a non-issue, relatively speaking. The cake has already been baked, so to speak. They've had centuries to integrate and assimilate into a homogenous society, but here in the West are transforming our society in real time, so the cake is still very much in the oven.

We are very much a heterogeneous society figuring ourselves out, so I can understand if an Argentine has a different view of "native" than a Westerner. And as a westerner myself, I can understand why and how that is offensive. I just don't believe for a second Enzo Fernandez is the second coming of Hitler. I just think it's understandable ignorance.

[An Observer]

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

 

Let them have their stupid little chant and move on, I say. 

For someone who wants to move on, you seem to be talking about it a lot 

[Obinna]

28 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

I guess part of this comes from being from Canada, a country that is often considered "fake" or "impure" because our people come from all over the world and we ended up here a relatively short amount of time ago, but these same rules don't apply to Central or South American countries, whose people come from similar places as ours, and part of that seems, to me, to have to do with their economic situation and how they see themselves compared to other more powerful countries. You mix that in with the arrogance of being a footballing powerhouse, and it makes for quite an ignorant mix. They feel like they're swinging upwards by calling out france, but they're clearly open to swinging downwards, like how their fans had all of those colourful things to say about Moise Bombito, for example. 

As I said in the last post, the "same rules" don't apply because they've had time to integrate and form a homogenous society. You are comparing Apples to Oranges, I am afraid.

I agree about the football arrogance, but they've been serial winners so I get the arrogance.

I don't understand your view about the economic stuff. I don't see how that factors in whatsoever. 

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, An Observer said:

For someone who wants to move on, you seem to be talking about it a lot 

Far more interested in the cultural and historical parts of the discussion at this point, but don't worry I am almost done 👍 

[InglewoodJack]

58 minutes ago, Obinna said:

False. The ethnic makeup of Argentina is very much Argentinian. They are not diverse in culture compared to a country like France, USA or Canada. 

Racial diversity is not equivalent to ethnic diversity in this instance.

Semantics aside, I get the thrust of what you are saying, but after spending years dating a Latina I think I can better understand their world view. Generally speaking, their society has been racial mixed for long enough to where race is a non-issue, relatively speaking. The cake has already been baked, so to speak. They've had centuries to integrate and assimilate into a homogenous society, but here in the West are transforming our society in real time, so the cake is still very much in the oven.

We are very much a heterogeneous society figuring ourselves out, so I can understand if an Argentine has a different view of "native" than a Westerner. And as a westerner myself, I can understand why and how that is offensive. I just don't believe for a second Enzo Fernandez is the second coming of Hitler. I just think it's understandable ignorance.

I think the bolded is a double standard. Both Canada and Argentina draw a majority of our people from Europe and even though Canada has people from more places than they do, both our cultures have been in constant flux ever since people started coming from around the world. Sure, we're experiencing a new wave of immigration right now, but it's not like Canada's culture is any more indian or Chinese than Argentina's is Lebanese or Russian (big destination for Russian ex-pats since the war). Not to mention, if you want to talk about Canada not being a homogenous society, the first thing you should mention is the fact that about one fifth of our country speaks French and identifies themselves separately from other Canadians, but it isn't like anyone is singling out Sam Piette or Max Crepeau as examples of our culture not being baked in. A guy like Kamal Miller was singled out in that viral picture of our team being "not Canadian". He with his Caribbean grandparents is not a Canadian, but Paulo Dybala is a pure argentine despite his Polish grandparents. 

To be honest, I think the idea of their culture being baked in and ours isn't is a nation-building myth that they and other Latin countries tell themselves to separate themselves from the northern countries like ours. One of my best friends is Brazilian of Portuguese descent, and she always teases me about being a colonizer from Canada until we finally talked it out, and it's like- you claim Brazil is such a homogenous country, but tell me that your experience as a white Brazilian in Rio is the same as a black Brazilian, or indigenous Brazilians, and we came to an agreement that our countries are effectively the same, born in very different contexts. I'd argue that Brazil probably has a much more distinct and firm national identity than a place like Argentina is. 

I don't think Enzo Fernandez is the second coming of Hitler. I think what he said was both offensive and ignorant to French players, I think it was reckless considering he plays his club game with many of these guys he's referring to, and again, I just don't think that Argentina has this distinct homogenous culture that the countries he's calling out don't have. We're all the same, they just speak Spanish we speak English and French, France speaks French, so on. Heck, we're talking about Canada, but he's referring to France, one of the oldest cultures in europe, and a country that as part of their law is a lot more forceful about integration than their us or Argentina. The players he's calling out are probably more culturally similar than even Argentina's are! 

Lastly, I know that convos here that stray away from the sport may get testy/veer far off topic, but if it wasn't clear by now, it's all respect here, of course. 

 

[Sal333]

7 hours ago, Obinna said:

Casual racism. That's a new one ...

I don't want to defend this chant, because I am not a fan, but it certainly doesn't deserve the reaction it is getting, at least to me (as a Nigerian Canadian). Yeah, the French team are full of Africans...so? 

Are people really this triggered, or are they looking for an outlet to vent their rage? Either way, the reaction to this by some people is just as pathetic as the chant itself. Messi should apologize for his teammates? Give me a break.

Let them have their stupid little chant and move on, I say. 

Actually, that's wrong. The French team is full of Frenchmen. Many of those Frenchmen have African heritage.

[Sal333]

6 hours ago, jonovision said:

Speaking of moving on, isn't singing that chant about an opponent they beat two years ago a strange way to celebrate winning the Copa America?

Colombia had many blacks/Africans (finals) and Canada had many blacks/Africans (semis). Argentine is a very racist country. For the most part, they're proud of their whitewash. At one time their country had a large black population. They rid themselves of their black citizens by either sending them to war against Paraguay or mistreating the remainder so they left for neighbouring countries..