Match Thread: World Cup Group F - Matchday 3 - Canada v Morocco - December 1, 2022 - 6pm local time / 10am ET / 7am PT

[sonic_fcpf]

12 minutes ago, 74 Whitecap said:

As for the game, that was a tough one, you play Morocco and give them an easy first goal like that, you're making things very difficult for yourself. We actually didn't play too badly overall. Tough to judge how it would have gone if Morocco had needed to score instead of sitting back.

Too bad about Hutch's header, that would have been a sweat punctuation mark for his career with Canada. Still he played very well today. Should have been a penalty in the follow up I thought, Johnston puts that in without the shove, with the defender made no attempt to play the ball. Sometimes you wish we were the kind of team to surround the ref and demand a var check!

As for the tournament, it's hard not to think about what might have been. Overall, of course, super proud of the effort from everyone, we still outperformed what anyone expected from us going back a year or two.

In the interests of getting better for next time, a few thoughts:

1) Having Eustaquio not fit was a huge loss for the team (and for him of course, he was such a key reason we qualified, but didn't get a chance to really show what he could do on the world stage), he's had some recurring injury problems, so I just hope he can stay fit and healthy over the coming years, we know the talent is there.

2) I really think we should play Davies at LB. 2 goals at least that we conceded directly due to lack of speed at the back, that is more than Morocco conceded in the entire round, and they are moving on. If we develop (from somewhere!) someone who can play at the back with world class pace, then this could change, but until then, we desperately need Davies back there for his speed. I'm sure we can develop a system in which he plays there, but has some freedom to picks his spots and move forward. and we cover for him. He scored Canada's first goal ever, so that should be enough glory , plus there is also glory in getting results.

3) The US and Mexico are good teams (especially the U.S.), but there is nobody in Concacaf with striking talent like we faced here, so I think that lulled us into a sense that we could get by without Davies at the back or without more cover for the back, keeping a lower block, etc.

4) I'm not sure when Herdman decided that we were incapable of sitting back, absorbing pressure and counter-attacking like we did vs U.S. in qualifying. But with our defensive weakness and speed on attack, we absolutely need to get back to being able to play that way. You can cover defensive weakness with a press, but only for limited periods of time and in certain situations, you have to pick your spots, and you can't do it for 90 minutes. Especially game after game in a tournament. Hopefully Herdman has time to reflect, and comes to this same conclusion. Talk of getting rid of Herdman is ridiculous, by the way, serious over-reaction to a few games against superior opposition with key players hurt or not fully match fit.

5) The results showed just how massive it was for us to get to the World Cup and have this experience. So glad that we did this here, at Qatar, in a tournament we weren't even supposed to make, rather than having our first kick at the can (with this generation) be at home in 2026.

6) Getting into Copa would be huge and the CSA needs to pull out all the stops to make that happen. If they have to hold a telethon to raise funds to buy our way in, I'll donate, I promise.

7) The talent level is better than it has been in a long time, but we still need to be all out recruiting, holding youth camps, battling for duals, etc. because it is not quite there yet to compete at this level. We need more depth in particular. Kaye did his best today, but was out of his league. It is somewhat amazing that Kone was not out of his league, but he clearly wasn't. His emergence is the biggest positive (personnel wise) of the last 12 months.

8. Everyone worked hard but I would single out Hoillett, Buchanan, Kone and Johnston in particular for showing they could battle and make plays at this level. Vitoria was also huge at the back for us, despite a few errors - he will be tough to replace, that is for sure unless someone really steps up over the next cycle.

9) Talk of this team being the same as in '86 is ridiculous. I watched those games and I watched these games, and it really is a night and day difference. Nobody walked out of '86 thinking if only we had scored on a couple of chances, or set up a little differently, or had a key guy healthy, we might have made it through to the next round.

Now time to sit back and enjoy the rest of the tournament. Yeah they rolled around a lot, but over the group stage I did find myself warming to Morocco's team play, and I'm glad at least one of the European teams in our group was sent packing (Lukaku - lol).

 

 

 

 

 

We have talent but we were a bit cahotic in the pitch trying to solve  the  issues individually. At this level does not work. We looked like a spitfire squad where every plane was making raids everywhere  without coordination. We need  to have game tempo control (US is much better doing it). Overall I think it was positive and we have time now to prepare the enxt WC. We need more campus both for the main team and also youth. key teams in Europe have at least 3 campus a year for every national team starting at U15.

 

[rdb9ty]

35 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Larin gets a pass where David doesn’t because people expect him to be hot garbage so when he’s only slightly below mediocre, he suddenly deserves starts. He’s a goal scorer who isn’t scoring goals. Make it make sense

If we're being honest, aside from that solo goal vs Honduras,  David has been underperforming for Canada the entire time compared to how he plays for Lille. And I did admit that Larin was dogshit and would have gone with Cavallini for the fuck of it. 

[Kadenge]

5 minutes ago, rdb9ty said:

If we're being honest, aside from that solo goal vs Honduras,  David has been underperforming for Canada the entire time compared to how he plays for Lille. And I did admit that Larin was dogshit and would have gone with Cavallini for the fuck of it. 

You may want to take a look at the all time goal scoring list for Canada. Agree that David was not a factor but  if we want him to play like he does for Lille our set up has to change. Using the same tactical system and trying to insert one of David for Larin or both doesn't work. 

[Free kick]

30 minutes ago, Free kick said:

My expectations going into this world cup were in the range of:  1) advancing to the round of 16.  this was at the top end of the expectations.  2) At the bottom end of the expectations was to score a goal.  I was certain we would score a goal.  That was the range for me and it was a wide range  

In the end, we met those expectations, but it was at the very lower end of the expectations.  So I can't call it a failure.  essentially, the WC exposed all of the question marks we had going into WCQ 2 years ago.   They just weren't exposed in WCQ because of the opposition we faced in CONCACAF.  We now know that mexico is weaker than they were in the past and the Americans are good, but have some scoring issues.   

To add to my point.   If we look at that game versus the US in WCQ in Nashville and compare it to our game versus Belgium last week.   We had many more scoring chances against Belgium, we played much better overall against Belgium.  Whereas in the game in Nashville we might have had three chances (at most) all game and capitalized on one to earn a successful 1-1 result.   The difference was that the Americans (although they are solid in many areas) are not a high scoring team.   Those are the breaks that happen in soccer and also highlights that what happens in CONCACAF stays in CONCACAF and can't be applied anywhere else.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by Free kick

[Gian-Luca]

4 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

You may want to take a look at the all time goal scoring list for Canada. Agree that David was not a factor but  if we want him to play like he does for Lille our set up has to change. Using the same tactical system and trying to insert one of David for Larin or both doesn't work. 

It also didn’t help in this match that the one through ball we played to David the whole tournament was unwittingly cut off by Davies

[rdb9ty]

3 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

You may want to take a look at the all time goal scoring list for Canada. Agree that David was not a factor but  if we want him to play like he does for Lille our set up has to change. Using the same tactical system and trying to insert one of David for Larin or both doesn't work. 

Same can be said for Larin (the bolded part). I agree though that a lot of this falls on the coach. He has to find a way to get the best out of his best players, and he simply didn't at this world cup. For all of their successes at club level, Davies and David were largely non-factors, especially David. I'll give Davies the benefit of the doubt because he had the balls to step up for the pen, scored vs Croatia, and tried his best to create at other times. I don't think I even saw David in a dangerous position aside from the first 5 minutes vs Belgium.

[jhoops__]

4 minutes ago, rdb9ty said:

Same can be said for Larin (the bolded part). I agree though that a lot of this falls on the coach. He has to find a way to get the best out of his best players, and he simply didn't at this world cup. For all of their successes at club level, Davies and David were largely non-factors, especially David. I'll give Davies the benefit of the doubt because he had the balls to step up for the pen, scored vs Croatia, and tried his best to create at other times. I don't think I even saw David in a dangerous position aside from the first 5 minutes vs Belgium.

We don’t talk enough about how we’re lacking that savvy AM that can thread passes to David and Larin.   Perhaps Kone can be that guy but he’s being used in a more defensive role by Herdman.

[Cicero]

1 minute ago, jhoops__ said:

We don’t talk enough about how we’re lacking that savvy AM that can thread passes to David and Larin.   Perhaps Kone can be that guy but he’s being used in a more defensive role by Herdman.

I've often wondered if David should actually be that guy.

[jhoops__]

Yeah maybe,  he’s better underneath a #9 for sure…

[dyslexic nam]

2 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

We don’t talk enough about how we’re lacking that savvy AM that can thread passes to David and Larin.   Perhaps Kone can be that guy but he’s being used in a more defensive role by Herdman.

I think Kone can play there.  I also think one of Nelson or Rutty could be groomed to be that guy.  

[Free kick]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think Kone can play there.  I also think one of Nelson or Rutty could be groomed to be that guy.  

I wish I could agree with that.  Maybe Rutty will be that guy.  But i have seen nothing so far from Nelson to suggest that he is that guy.    

[rdb9ty]

6 minutes ago, jhoops__ said:

We don’t talk enough about how we’re lacking that savvy AM that can thread passes to David and Larin.   Perhaps Kone can be that guy but he’s being used in a more defensive role by Herdman.

I don't think Kone's that guy unless he transforms his game. I admittedly have never seen him for Montreal but for Canada he is always sideways sideways, backwards. Today he was a bit better and looking to go forward more. He's composed but that's because he doesn't take any risks. He's better suited further back in DM. 

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I wish I could agree with that.  Maybe Rutty will be that guy.  But i have seen nothing so far from Nelson to suggest that he is that guy.    

I tend to think the opposite.  Nelson can wriggle out of pressure with some tricks.  He is also ways looking to attack space. Incisive passing is obviously important but I think it is quite possible that he adds that in the next year or two.  

He was surprisingly fast at times so maybe his skillset is seen as best used on the outside and that is where he will confuse to be used but there is always something about his play that makes me think he could be a CAM.  

[jhoops__]

5 minutes ago, rdb9ty said:

I don't think Kone's that guy unless he transforms his game. I admittedly have never seen him for Montreal but for Canada he is always sideways sideways, backwards. Today he was a bit better and looking to go forward more. He's composed but that's because he doesn't take any risks. He's better suited further back in DM. 

He’s far more dynamic than that imo.   Herdman seems to have put the brakes on him the last few games.

Edited December 1, 2022 by jhoops__

[jonovision]

4 minutes ago, rdb9ty said:

I don't think Kone's that guy unless he transforms his game. I admittedly have never seen him for Montreal but for Canada he is always sideways sideways, backwards. Today he was a bit better and looking to go forward more. He's composed but that's because he doesn't take any risks. He's better suited further back in DM. 

From what I've seen with Montreal, Kone is more incisive and looks to create chances going forward. But more often he is a late-run-into-the-box guy. Dare I say Arfield-esque.

[Free kick]

18 minutes ago, rdb9ty said:

I don't think Kone's that guy unless he transforms his game. I admittedly have never seen him for Montreal but for Canada he is always sideways sideways, backwards. Today he was a bit better and looking to go forward more. He's composed but that's because he doesn't take any risks. He's better suited further back in DM. 

Kone has been great.   But i agree that he not that deft passer or number 10 (that pulls the strings) that we are thinking of

Edited December 1, 2022 by Free kick

[Free kick]

5 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I tend to think the opposite.  Nelson can wriggle out of pressure with some tricks.  He is also ways looking to attack space. Incisive passing is obviously important but I think it is quite possible that he adds that in the next year or two.  

He was surprisingly fast at times so maybe his skillset is seen as best used on the outside and that is where he will confuse to be used but there is always something about his play that makes me think he could be a CAM.  

He is not creative with his passes and able to read and anticipate the play.  I have seen nothing to suggest that he distribute that thru ball you need.  He can run at defenders to some degree but shown me nothing that he can hold and dibble the ball in thight spaces and make plays from that.   What you are really looking for is another Osorio.   I am not sure what Nelson's role will be.  

[InglewoodJack]

47 minutes ago, rdb9ty said:

If we're being honest, aside from that solo goal vs Honduras,  David has been underperforming for Canada the entire time compared to how he plays for Lille. And I did admit that Larin was dogshit and would have gone with Cavallini for the fuck of it. 

Yeah I agree with this, mostly. But if two players suck for country, but one is one of the best players in a top 5 league and the other can’t see the pitch for his club, I know who I’m giving benefit of the doubt to

[finchster]

Canada always seems to have some kid come out of nowhere; it might not happen, but it always seems to be the case. 

The next World Cup is in 4 years, so it is a fool's errand to speculate about the starting lineup. It's also not set in stone that Canada will be better next time- injuries happen, players take steps back etc.

The work needs to continue- this is just the base.

I said before qualifying that I wanted Canada to make this world cup because we qualify automatically for the next one. Getting there as a host would ring empty if not based on merit.

We made the World Cup on merit. That's good

In the next world cup, Canada needs to show they belong because they didn't this time.

[Free kick]

15 minutes ago, finchster said:

Canada always seems to have some kid come out of nowhere; it might not happen, but it always seems to be the case. 

 

We overrate a lot of the young talent.  Thats a problem.  Thats not the case with a Kid like Kone or a few others.  But in far too many cases, people just look at some kids age instead of what they can do and how they can help a team win now.   You can be a young kid who still needs to develop but at teh same time, you have to show potential every now and then.     

This (over rating of young players) also hurts the clubs in the win loss columns.   

Edited December 1, 2022 by Free kick

[Treppy2]

15 hours ago, Cheeta said:

We're out and I can't believe how much I'm looking forward to tomorrow. 

Not to take away from the test, because I know the lads are going to go out there and win, lose, or draw leave whatever they have left on that pitch, but...I also know it's going to be damned near impossible for me to feel nothing but ferociously proud of this collection of players, staff and coaches. 

Tomorrow every pass they make, every tackle they make, and every snarly expression one of them puts on will be the shinning light of heaven warming my face.   And honestly, I really don't know what will happen when after we score.  Ha!  I will probably black out. 

So that's likely the wrong attitude to take into a match but I don't think I'll be able to help it.  And I don't think I should have to.  After all,  I'm not the one playing tomorrow.  I'm sure the lads are more than capable of stoking the competitive fires to white hot without my help. 

So...  as I doubt I'll be able to sleep tonight, I share a wee silly memmory.  A cheerful one from when I was young that isn't entirely detatched from the modern footballing world.  (Might even be from before Atiba's time.  Might be.)

Do, do, do-doot.  Uncle 'tiba.

Do, do, do-doot.  Uncle 'tiba. 

    

 

Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd see "Papa's Got a Brand New Pigbag" on the Voyageurs' message board. I have this album lurking in cardboard box somewhere in the depths of my basement. Think I bought it because this song was the theme/intro to "The New Music", a show that aired Saturdays at midnight on CityTV (I think). It was the only place to see videos of the music that I loved. This was in the mid-80s, so well before Atiba's time.

Totally agree with the rest of your post, too. Thank you!

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 minutes ago, Treppy2 said:

Never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd see "Papa's Got a Brand New Pigbag" on the Voyageurs' message board. I have this album lurking in cardboard box somewhere in the depths of my basement. Think I bought it because this song was the theme/intro to "The New Music", a show that aired Saturdays at midnight on CityTV (I think). It was the only place to see videos of the music that I loved. This was in the mid-80s, so well before Atiba's time.

Totally agree with the rest of your post, too. Thank you!

Wow. Good catch. It would have been early 90s, I think for me. The song is iconic.

  Any Alberta posters know where I would have seen the New Music.  Don't think we had City TV then.

Edited December 1, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[TGAA_Star]

How disappointing that Canada not only crashes out of Qatar in the group stage which is bad enough but finishing without a single point, not even a win or a draw in any of their games. It is disappointing given that Canada finished 1st in the Octagonal to qualify and had one of the most impressive qualifying runs pre Qatar. But this team is exactly like the 1986 squad in the sense of not even winning 1 single game or not even getting a draw given how talented Canada was coming in. People had expectations I know I did.

[Addona]

Anyone have the expected goals for this match ... I'd be interested to see them, given how Morocco scored their 2 goals.  Thanks!

 

[jonovision]

Just now, Addona said:

Anyone have the expected goals for this match ... I'd be interested to see them, given how Morocco scored their 2 goals.  Thanks!

 

1.1 - 0.47 in favor of Canada.