Match Thread: World Cup Group F - Matchday 2 - Croatia v Canada - November 27, 2022 - 7pm local time / 11am ET / 8am PT

[mpg_29]

I feel like CONNEMBOL and CONCACAF having a joint confederation tournament would better for both if only for the fact that neither side really has enough teams to put on a marketable tournament.

You could probably have decent 18 team tournament. CONNEMBOL + 8 from CONCACAF

 

[rdb9ty]

After the absolute perfect start to the match, getting the bogey out of the way and for Davies to do it of all people, we should have stepped on the throats of Croatia and instead we absolutely bottled it. That can only be down to Herdman's decision to pander to sentimentality and playing Hutchinson in a 2 man midfield. Absolutely shocking. It was clear after the first 15 minutes that Hutchinson was huffing and puffing and needed to either be replaced or have an additional man go in midfield to help him out. He was simply too old and too slow to keep up. Every Croatian attack was the result of him being overrun in midfield and struggling. It was laughable defending at times. Croatia didn't look all that amazing. It was just schoolboy defending and play from our midfield today.

[JAVIERF]

3 hours ago, canuckgbp said:

Hutch would look different in a 3 as well. You could have Hutch as the 6 and Kone and Osorio as the 8s. Would Hutch have 45 in him if that were the case? I’m sure it would have looked better than the 72 he gave us. 
 

Piette is an option as the 6 as well. Less keen on him if we put down a goal. 
 

I find this obvious because you don’t go up against an elite 3 with one less player and especially when fitness and legs are questionable. Adding another body in the middle would have helped. 
 

Helped us win? Unlikely. Think we would have had a better second half though. 

If there is a match where Piette can playa is vs Croatia who arent fast in midfield they are very much like Spain or Argentina mostly pedestrian with a good passing range understanding

Kovacic was the best player for me. 

Hutchinson and Eustaquio were having a good game but they needed an extra man,  I would have taken David or Larin out for  Any mid before 30 minutes your team was sorted out by the  Croatians and they had teamwork

Edited November 27, 2022 by JAVIERF

[Watchmen]

21 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

I feel like CONNEMBOL and CONCACAF having a joint confederation tournament would better for both if only for the fact that neither side really has enough teams to put on a marketable tournament.

You could probably have decent 18 team tournament. CONNEMBOL + 8 from CONCACAF

 

There is no good format for 18 teams.

Just go with 16 and let a number of the CONCACAF sides have a qualifying tournament. CONCACAF members have complained in the past there's too long between meaningful games (ie WC qualifiers) so give them some CA qualifiers instead of the nations league for a year.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Watchmen

[BearcatSA]

6 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Many of the top players in Concacaf over the years have skipped playing in the Gold cup.

Including some of ours.

Lingering/nagging injuries at the end of the European season have usually been the reasons for absence and maybe we might have a couple this time around, as well, with the intense two year focus of WCQ behind us.  That, of course, will open the door for new blood to the program or younger back ups to stake their claims going forward

[TOcanadafan]

So many mixed emotions and will likely take a day or two to get over the disappointment.  
Just like all those “ifs” from the Belgium game, “if” we had somehow managed to put in a 2nd goal early, things may have been different.

I felt like the plan was to play things out like we did vs. the US… but Croatia showed to be just that much better than the US in tactics, ability and execution.  And also in another quality - fight and physicality.  They essentially bullied us all over the field after taking hold of the game… and up to this point I don’t think we’ve faced anything like this.  David especially was manhandled.  I didn’t see this coming and it worked to completely neutralize our speed threat.

Glad we got that first goal, of course, and hopefully we go out with a result in the final game.  This experience has been immense.  Lots to look forward to in 2026!

[GasPed]

2 minutes ago, JAVIERF said:

If there is a match where Piette can playa is vs Croatia who arent fast in midfield they are very much like Spain or Argentina mostly pedestrian with a good passing range understanding

Kovacic was the best player for me. 

Hutchinson and Eustaquio were having a good game but they needed an extra man,  I would have taken David or Larin out for  Any mid before 30 minutes your team was sorted out by the  Croatians and they had teamwork

I have to agree.  Croatia's midfield trio is monstrous - and any thought that somehow our duo of Staq - Hutch could match-up was naive at best.  I actually thought the two of them did admirably well in the first half, but after about the 30th minute, the writing was on the wall - those guys were just passing circles around us, forcing us to retreat into our bunker.

Having said that, with Staq out, we just don't have the quality/backups to play a decent three-wide midfield.  It was pretty much doomed - full credit to Croatia, and yet another reminder that chances are created from the flanks, but games are won in the midfield...  

[VinceA]

I think the only thing that will keep nagging me in the back of my mind when it comes to this game and in general goign forward, and I fully get Croatia could beat us in anyway even at our best, is the fact that Herdman brought all these midfielders with him, only to start the same pairing in back to back games and with the knowledge that neither Atiba nor Eustaquio were fully fit.

Add to that for a man who was so smart in analyzing the opposition throughout WCQ and against Belgium, didn't think to play a 3-man midfield against arguably the best midfield in the world.

Through two games we are eliminated and Kaye, Wotherspoon (Who was made to be a big hoopla that he was back in the team), Piette and Fraser (who was brought in as a replacement for a defender, which pointed to more midfield utilization) haven't seen the pitch.

To me Herdman got it completely wrong, and for sure he could have gotten it right and we'd still lose. But after it was obvious Atiba was struggling (and made more egregious when he asked Atiba if he wanted to come off, and didn't just take him off in the 55th minute), we had given Croatia the game.

Edited November 28, 2022 by VinceA

[reggietfc]

herdman s after game presser was jus has bad has his tactics today.a tough few days for him

[rdb9ty]

3 minutes ago, VinceA said:

I think the only thing that will keep nagging me in the back of my mind when it comes to this game and in general goign forward, and I fully get Croatia could beat us in anyway even at our best, is the fact that Herdman brought all these midfielders with him, only to start the same pairing in back to back games and with the knowledge that neither Atiba nor Eustaquio were fully fit.

Add to that for a man who was so smart in analyzing the opposition throughout WCQ and against Belgium, didn't think to play a 3-man midfield against arguably the best midfield in the world.

Through two games we are eliminated and Kaye, Wotherspoon (Who was made to be a big hoopla that he was back in the team), Piette and Fraser (who was brought in as a replacement for a defender, which pointed to more midfield utilization) haven't seen the pitch.

To me Herdman got it completely wrong, and for sure he could have gotten it right and we'd still lose. But after it was obvious Atiba was struggling (and made more egregious when he asked Atiba if he wanted to come off, and didn't just take him off in the 55th minute), we had given Croatia the game.

You have to question some of the decision making. Kaye was a mainstay for us during the qualifying campaign and yes, he had poor moments but also has the potential to have decent ones. Kone who didn't play at all featured in both matches. Someone like Adekugbe as well could have a gripe that he didn't start either match after being our go-to left back all qualifying campaign long. Strange. Today was definitely a day for changes but mine wouldn't have been Larin for Hoilett.

[JAVIERF]

It is hard to swallow that Canada play good brand proper attacking football,  dominance etc,  and is out and CR played awful got 0-7 and got a result vs Japan who I think underestimate the ticos.  And didnt play direct.  But that is football, 

[JAVIERF]

2 minutes ago, rdb9ty said:

You have to question some of the decision making. Kaye was a mainstay for us during the qualifying campaign and yes, he had poor moments but also has the potential to have decent ones. Kone who didn't play at all featured in both matches. Someone like Adekugbe as well could have a gripe that he didn't start either match after being our go-to left back all qualifying campaign long. Strange. Today was definitely a day for changes but mine wouldn't have been Larin for Hoilett.

Well Larin carried the ball for the goal,  I think David shold have been replaced I think he was stage fright both game and they arent with Davies in a good understanding football understanding.  What Canada has to do is defeat Marroc and try to eliminate them from competition.

[Metro]

4 hours ago, jonovision said:

Gross. No matter who complicated the history may be.

 

Wow, that is very unfortunate. The thread goes on to say Borjans phone was leaked which lead to him getting hundreds of hate texts. 
 

Borjans response was very classy as was the responses from Petkovic and other Croatian players that stuck up for him. 👏👏👏

[Copes]

So I've been thinking about this game for a few hours now and want to toss my thoughts out there. Watching Canada in the World Cup has been awesome. I haven't been waiting as long as some of you - I only really became a soccer fan around the 2010 World Cup while in University. Still, 12 years later, witnessing Canada make it... and seeing their first ever goal... it was awesome. 

I think I knew deep down that advancing from the group was unlikely. Still, as hype grew and news about the other teams was trickling out I really started to believe we could get out and into the knockout. Honestly, I still think we could have if Belgium had gone differently. Once we learned Lukaku was out I genuinely felt we could beat them, and the game against them demonstrated that we could. Going into Croatia I think that the hype from the Belgium game gave me a bit too much confidence against the team I had always said in the leadup to the tournament was going to be the harder of the two big fish for us. 

We can still get a win. I thought that if we advanced it would likely be with a 1-1-1 record or something. And realistically, we shortchanged ourselves not getting the win or draw against Belgium. So... with one game left, if we can pull out some points from Morocco I think I'll be satisfied with how the World Cup went. We've got our first goal. Now let's get our first point. 

As to the game itself, it wasn't Canada's best performance and you cannot play "not your best" against a team as good as Croatia. I don't think Herdman's comments impacted the outcome, but it was definitely one additional piece of encouragement that we didn't need to give them. 

I feel great about our program moving forward, particularly as we march towards 2026. I think we have an incredibly group of young players - the bulk of this team will return for the next cycle, which is amazing. This includes Davies... our superstar. I know there has been some discussion on Davies. I'm typing this sitting here in a Davies jersey. I'm a huge fan of the guy. But I fall into the group of folks who feels like he sometimes tries to do too much. In particular... and this might not be a popular take... but I really wish we weren't cramming him into our attack. I know he grew up and came through Vancouver as a winger, and I know that's where he wants to play. But the bulk of his experience at the highest level is in a left-back position. He is a very good defender - an area of the field we are notoriously weak. Beyond that though, he is the most valuable LEFT-BACK in the world. Not the most valuable Winger. He was moved to this position at club level for a reason. He is not scoring goals for Bayern like he was at Vancouver, because the talent is greater. Let's USE HIM in the position where his plays normally... where he thrives... and where we need strength. Between Larin, David, Buchanan... our attack is solid. I really don't think Davies running all over the pitch helps us. I also think it could help us improve our system in general. I feel we are choosing formations so that we can cram Davies up top, and its probably to our detriment. Full backs / wing backs can be attacking threats in the modern game. I wish someone would encourage him to embrace his opportunity as opposed to be trying to play a more offensive position. For what? The goal-scoring glory? 

Anyway, we have Morocco ahead and I think we can get a point. I think the result was disappointing today because of how hyped we were, but really shouldn't be given where our program was last World Cup cycle. We have made some great strides and I'm really really excited for the future. 

Oh! And in regards to the Copa I couldn't agree more. There really should be a joint NA / SA tournament... something like that could probably rival the Euros more than having them separate does. 

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, Floortom said:

 

In the end, I guess bulletin board material is an actual thing that professionals care about.

Begrudging kudos to the Croats for their comprehensive performance today.  Once they got rolling after 20 minutes, they were a clear class above.

[grigorio]

5 hours ago, jhoops__ said:

Fair criticism that he empowers the players just a bit too much…

I seem to recall the formation and tactics were left up to the players to decide in the match we lost 4-1 to the US in nation’s league. Something along the lines of “I asked the guys if they wanted to play all out offense and they said ya” 

[Cheeta]

49 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

So many mixed emotions and will likely take a day or two to get over the disappointment.  
Just like all those “ifs” from the Belgium game, “if” we had somehow managed to put in a 2nd goal early, things may have been different.

I felt like the plan was to play things out like we did vs. the US… but Croatia showed to be just that much better than the US in tactics, ability and execution.  And also in another quality - fight and physicality.  They essentially bullied us all over the field after taking hold of the game… and up to this point I don’t think we’ve faced anything like this.  David especially was manhandled.  I didn’t see this coming and it worked to completely neutralize our speed threat.

Glad we got that first goal, of course, and hopefully we go out with a result in the final game.  This experience has been immense.  Lots to look forward to in 2026!

Really the close press worked wonders for Croatia.  Forcing forward balls to be recieved backwards, as it were, for much of the match.  Yet no one anticipated that.  Really? Utilizing that strategy is not exactly re-inventing the wheel wheel is it?

Herdman got school boyed today.  Played out of a multi million dollar contract with the USMT he was, in a single afternoon. 

Shrug.  It is what it is.  I'm not pointing fingers. Just suggesting the on field actors in this tragidy don't wear the writers scribblings.  At least not alone.     

  

[VinceA]

Don't love how OneSoccer are looking at this game. Platt and Wheeler basically said Herdman had no choice but to only use Hutchinson and Eustaquio. What the fuck was the point then in calling up like 46 central midfielders if you're gonna only use two? For the vibes?

[SoCalTransport]

That was a rough one, but the experts were right their midfielders and wingers would out play our midfielders and defenders, and that's exactly what happened.

I was getting flashbacks of the 8-1 match against Honduras.

If Herdman decides to leave, I think we need a more tactful manager. If Mexico or the US play Croatia later in the tournament, I don't think Croatia will break them down as easily as they broke down Canada today. It comes down to a bad plan.

[clamlinguine]

1 hour ago, rdb9ty said:

You have to question some of the decision making. Kaye was a mainstay for us during the qualifying campaign and yes, he had poor moments but also has the potential to have decent ones. Kone who didn't play at all featured in both matches. Someone like Adekugbe as well could have a gripe that he didn't start either match after being our go-to left back all qualifying campaign long. Strange. Today was definitely a day for changes but mine wouldn't have been Larin for Hoilett.

Larin, David and Hutchinson should have been out.  Adekube, Kone and Hoilett should have been in. That would have been my play.

[PastPros]

54 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Really the close press worked wonders for Croatia.  Forcing forward balls to be recieved backwards, as it were, for much of the match.  Yet no one anticipated that.  Really? Utilizing that strategy is not exactly re-inventing the wheel wheel is it?

Herdman got school boyed today.  Played out of a multi million dollar contract with the USMT he was, in a single afternoon. 

Shrug.  It is what it is.  I'm not pointing fingers. Just suggesting the on field actors in this tragidy don't wear the writers scribblings.  At least not alone.     

  

Other teams played the close press against us to great success (Panama, Bahrain even!).

It's not that we didn't see it coming, it's that we don't have the talent to overcome it against decent teams.

I think we'll see a lot more of it until we can adapt.

Edited November 28, 2022 by PastPros

[Mattd97]

I think we had a lot of tactical mistakes today.  You never dont want a 1-0 lead 2 minutes in, but i think it took out of of our best style of play and theres no way we could hold them for 88 minutes.

 

That said, they had 10 shots on target on 13 shots and Canada had 0 blocks.  Thats unreal.  Compare that to us against Belgium.  Clear that they both played extremely well, and that we have some things to work on.

[JAVIERF]

2 hours ago, rdb9ty said:

You have to question some of the decision making. Kaye was a mainstay for us during the qualifying campaign and yes, he had poor moments but also has the potential to have decent ones. Kone who didn't play at all featured in both matches. Someone like Adekugbe as well could have a gripe that he didn't start either match after being our go-to left back all qualifying campaign long. Strange. Today was definitely a day for changes but mine wouldn't have been Larin for Hoilett.

I didnt like Davies to take the penalty the other day,  if you dont get points from 1st match it is really hard, 2nd and 3rd,  the draw was hard tbf,  in Usa or México group better way out if Canadá got lucky 

[JAVIERF]

3 hours ago, rdb9ty said:

You have to question some of the decision making. Kaye was a mainstay for us during the qualifying campaign and yes, he had poor moments but also has the potential to have decent ones. Kone who didn't play at all featured in both matches. Someone like Adekugbe as well could have a gripe that he didn't start either match after being our go-to left back all qualifying campaign long. Strange. Today was definitely a day for changes but mine wouldn't have been Larin for Hoilett.

Sevilla FC wants to sign Buchanan

[top cheese]

3 hours ago, rdb9ty said:

After the absolute perfect start to the match, getting the bogey out of the way and for Davies to do it of all people, we should have stepped on the throats of Croatia and instead we absolutely bottled it. That can only be down to Herdman's decision to pander to sentimentality and playing Hutchinson in a 2 man midfield. Absolutely shocking. It was clear after the first 15 minutes that Hutchinson was huffing and puffing and needed to either be replaced or have an additional man go in midfield to help him out. He was simply too old and too slow to keep up. Every Croatian attack was the result of him being overrun in midfield and struggling. It was laughable defending at times. Croatia didn't look all that amazing. It was just schoolboy defending and play from our midfield today.

Few random thoughts on the game today. 

1.  I hope Kone makes a good decision when he takes the next step in his career. The kid has such a high ceiling to play in a top league, but he needs to play. I don't know if the championship is the right spot for him maybe France, Holland, or Belgium might be a good start. 

2. Despite a couple of turnovers today, Kamal Miller has been really impressive, and I hope he gets to take the next step from MLS into Europe. Johnston looked like he had some trouble adjusting to the pace to the game on and off the ball. Moving to Celtic is really going to help him. 

3. I think everyone can agree that Tomori and Arefield would have helped Canada a lot at this level. 

4. Richie Lareaya should be starting for Nottingham Forest or at least a regular. Hopefully the WC helps him secure a European spot in January.

This might not be popular....

5. I think Herdman's arrogance has really influenced the results of the WC. I agree with Croatia's coach that he still has a lot to learn. I respect what he has done in changing the culture with the NTs but this WC has really demonstrated that his decision-making and game management have a lot to be desired. In both games, Canada surprised the opposition and their managers made adjustments that influenced the games. Herdman did not adjust even though he showed a great deal of flexibility during WCQ

I don't understand the mindset to pick the team today. All WCQ Herdman rotated his squad to make sure the team was fresh and older players were not overused. To go back with the same squad 3 days after the game against Belgium and ask them to play a high press man-marking system is simply unacceptable. So much for the next man up or trust culture.  Playing Eustaquio (injured) and a 40-year-old Hutchinson against 3 top-class MF was just plain stupid. Hutchinson never had the legs to keep up to the pace of the game he was blown by regularly in the first half. 

6. Seems like Davies is making the games about himself. Hes taking all the free kicks, penalties, over dribbling. 

7. Canada Soccer needs to get its act together. The men need to play this competition regularly we cant wait another 4 years to see Canada against top competition. Bring England, Germany, Argentina to Canada. Our players are not going to progress playing Nationas league games against Bermuda!