Match Thread: World Cup Group F - Matchday 1 - Belgium v Canada - November 23, 2022 - 10pm local time / 2pm ET / 11am PT

[jonovision]

I'm having a hard time believing so much of what I'm reading here.

The penalty. Davies missed. It was a bad kick. Others could have taken it. Maybe David. They could also have missed. Davies could have scored. The chance a "good" penalty taker scores is maybe 10% better than the chance of Davies scoring. Whatever.

Davies "tried to do too much". Sure, he tried a few things that didn't come off. He had some other moves that did. He struggles at times to be incisive with Canada because the opponent loads up tactically to defend him. It's the reason Laryea and Buchanan had so much space to work with in the first half. Take him out and put in Cornelius, as I was shocked to read above, and we spend much less of the game on the front foot.

We struggled in the final third. No kidding. It's because we so thoroughly bossed the game that Belgium had to park the bus for much of it. They realized early that if they wanted to play open and trade chances it wouldn't end well. 

De Bruyne and the rest of the Belgian midfield looked average at best. Tielemans was outplayed by a 39 year old. Carrasco was abused for 45. Maybe their team was off, but Herdman and the players had a lot to do with it.

We could have had at least one more PK, maybe two. Buchanan could have scored the chance Laryea served him on a silver platter. Larin could have been a bit better with a few headers. Eustaquio could have been the one asked to take the corners. Laryea could have tracked the run better on the goal, or played a higher line. All of these are mistakes, every team makes them, Belgium made more, they were lucky to win. 

How can so much of the reaction be negative? Be honest about what your expectations were 4 hours ago, and then have another look at what we saw. I want to get out of the group but they came out swinging and earned the respect of everyone. They're not winning the World Cup so let's watch them play some real football.

[Califax]

5 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Today, yes he was!  

Especially given he missed a wide ope Tiellemens on the counter! 

[sebdeserio]

2 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

No, it doesn't hurt more to lose because of naivete and inexperience. That makes no sense. The ONLY way to get experience is to play these very games.  We stepped up a notch in every way today, and a bunch of guys with NO experience at this level just got blooded. And, not to quibble, but sometimes a long ball is a tactically smart choice. We made use of a number of excellent long balls. Keep in mind that the Belgian goal came off of a direct, long ball.

It doesn't hurt more to lose when you know there was a path to victory?? I'm obviously proud of the boys but we're not making it out of the group because of the naivety IMO and knowing there could've been a path to the knockout stages and most likely not making it is much more painful then being a Costa Rica and having no hope. The long balls were pretty good especially at the beginning but they tired out our forwards who were already pressing madly. 

[The Beaver 2.0]

For what it is worth, which Canadians today impressed all the various scouts watching this game? For my money, in order of quality on the day:

Eustaquio; Laryea; Buchanan; Johnston.

(I would add Davies and Vittoria, but the former is well-known to scouts, and the latter likely too old for a move up the football ladder.)

I thought Kone was okay, but he has to tidy up his first touch. He grew into the game. He learns fast AF. Oso looked good coming on, too. I expect him to be in the 11 versus Croatia, seeing as Hoillet will likely not get the start and who knows about Hutch.

 

 

[The Beaver 2.0]

3 minutes ago, sebdeserio said:

It doesn't hurt more to lose when you know there was a path to victory?? I'm obviously proud of the boys but we're not making it out of the group because of the naivety IMO and knowing there could've been a path to the knockout stages and most likely not making it is much more painful then being a Costa Rica and having no hope. The long balls were pretty good especially at the beginning but they tired out our forwards who were already pressing madly. 

that's not what you wrote. go read it. you said it hurts more because of "naivety and inexperience." Perhaps that is not what you meant to say. Fair enough. It indeed sucks to lose when the game was in reach.

Edited November 23, 2022 by The Beaver 2.0

[jonovision]

1 minute ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

For what it is worth, which Canadians today impressed all the various scouts watching this game? For my money, in order of quality on the day:

Eustaquio; Laryea; Buchanan; Johnston.

I didn't have Miller high up my list at first because on initially I thought it was his mistake on the Belgium goal. On subsequent replays I have to say that may not be the case. Other than that moment Miller was pretty great.

[narduch]

8 minutes ago, jonovision said:

I'm having a hard time believing so much of what I'm reading here.

The penalty. Davies missed. It was a bad kick. Others could have taken it. Maybe David. They could also have missed. Davies could have scored. The chance a "good" penalty taker scores is maybe 10% better than the chance of Davies scoring. Whatever.

Davies "tried to do too much". Sure, he tried a few things that didn't come off. He had some other moves that did. He struggles at times to be incisive with Canada because the opponent loads up tactically to defend him. It's the reason Laryea and Buchanan had so much space to work with in the first half. Take him out and put in Cornelius, as I was shocked to read above, and we spend much less of the game on the front foot.

We struggled in the final third. No kidding. It's because we so thoroughly bossed the game that Belgium had to park the bus for much of it. They realized early that if they wanted to play open and trade chances it wouldn't end well. 

De Bruyne and the rest of the Belgian midfield looked average at best. Tielemans was outplayed by a 39 year old. Carrasco was abused for 45. Maybe their team was off, but Herdman and the players had a lot to do with it.

We could have had at least one more PK, maybe two. Buchanan could have scored the chance Laryea served him on a silver platter. Larin could have been a bit better with a few headers. Eustaquio could have been the one asked to take the corners. Laryea could have tracked the run better on the goal, or played a higher line. All of these are mistakes, every team makes them, Belgium made more, they were lucky to win. 

How can so much of the reaction be negative? Be honest about what your expectations were 4 hours ago, and then have another look at what we saw. I want to get out of the group but they came out swinging and earned the respect of everyone. They're not winning the World Cup so let's watch them play some real football.

Hasn`t David missed a few in Ligue 1 as well?

In the end though people are just reacting to what feels like an opportunity missed.

[A.D.I.D.A.S.]

Beyond the penalty, we were still not clinical enough in open play 😕

I'd say this is a more pressing issue.

In the end though, not exactly the result we wanted but still an un-freaking-believable performance from the boys today.

Toe-to-toe with the #2 ranked team in the world 👊

 

[sebdeserio]

3 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

that's now what you wrote. go read it. you said it hurts more because of "naivety and inexperience." Perhaps that is not what you meant to say. Fair enough. It indeed sucks to lose when the game was in reach.

"We're gonna be out in the groups not because of lack of talent but because of naivety and inexperience and that hurts even more." Losing because of naivety and inexperience hurts more then Lack of talent implies the game was within reach.

[The Beaver 2.0]

Just now, narduch said:

Hasn`t David missed a few in Ligue 1 as well?

In the end though people are just reacting to what feels like an opportunity missed.

I thought Davies was mostly really good, to be frank. yeah, he got swarmed a few times, but he made several intelligent runs, was responsible coming back, and forced the Belgians to keep their heads on a swivel.  He looked gassed for the final 20 minutes, mind you. I hope we can get 60 or so out of him on Sunday, with us protecting a 2-goal lead when he's subbed off.

[The Beaver 2.0]

Just now, sebdeserio said:

"We're gonna be out in the groups not because of lack of talent but because of naivety and inexperience and that hurts even more." Losing because of naivety and inexperience hurts more then Lack of talent implies the game was within reach.

Nope. But whatever...

[ECW]

1 hour ago, A_Gagne said:

I agree with kevin kilbane on the post game show, that Herdman probably should have made the "who takes the PK" decision before the game.

The entire TSN panel agreed that Davies should not be taking that penalty. Herdman gives the squad a lot of freedom… which is often a good thing. But sometimes strengths become weaknesses. 

[A_Gagne]

did anyone find xG stats for the game? FWIW

[narduch]

1 minute ago, A_Gagne said:

did anyone find xG stats for the game? FWIW

Fotmob has 2.61 for Canada and 0.76 for Belgium.

2.15 of that came in the 1st half

[jonovision]

2 minutes ago, A_Gagne said:

did anyone find xG stats for the game? FWIW

There are different xG models but the one I saw was Canada 2.61 - 0.76 Belgium. Even take away about 0.7 for the penalty and it's still pretty lopsided.

[ECW]

Overall, I thought Davies played very well. Especially in the wingback role with freedom to work inside. He’s so good there. As the Belgian manager said the day before the match, one of Canada’s strengths is pace and freedom. We lose some of that with Davies beginning inside. I didn’t mind it though as a second half adjustment to change the look. 

Speaking of adjustments, I was impressed with how many players we brought on who didn’t look out of their element. Five subs and we we still had the better of the play. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Responding to the narratives here. 

I was also disappointed Davies took the penalty, and then thought he was not being effective as the game advanced. So that is a problem for the coach. I did not mind him a bit further back 1st half.

Now, if he had scored m. 10 most likely our entire match would have been different. We would have seen Belgium take it up a notch, and we would have been on the back foot far more often in the remaining 34 m of the first half. Even with a draw, going into the second half, the story would have looked more balanced in terms of possession, chances, play. 

Meaning I believe we may not have won with a penalty goal early, and certainly would not have seemed to dominant.

The thing about that penalty: Courtois really intimidates strikers, who feel they have to do more to score, and often it is the case. So a penalty is one of those few chances on Courtois you have to ensure, it levels the playing field. And then he is no longer sitting their on his unbeatable summit lording it over you.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[eramosat]

I'm very happy with this result.  maybe not the best CONCACAF result so far, but maybe it is?   1 - 0  loss to the #2 in the World and favorite of our group, in a match where we crushed it in chances and barely had to do any defending, our Achilles heel? 

Yes, I would take that over what the USA and Mexico and CR did.

[gigi riva]

We were the better team and I was impressed . We could not hit the net , To me Kamal miller was the MOM , we were able to contain KDB  for the most part . Also  Richie L was giving Carrasco some headaches , We did not embrass ourselves like Costa Rica  BTW F--K Them anyway . Lets Move on  The Future is bright  

[ECW]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

Fotmob has 2.61 for Canada and 0.76 for Belgium.

2.15 of that came in the 1st half

More evidence, I think that we are better with Davies in his Bayern role. 

If we continue to play this well we could beat either or both of Croatia and Morocco. It’s not likely, of course, but it doesn’t at all seem impossible  

 

[gwsmith63]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The thing about that penalty: Courtois really intimidates strikers, who feel they have to do more to score, and often it is the case. 

For me, beating him on a PK requires power over placement. 

Just my opinion though. 

[toontownman]

3 minutes ago, ECW said:

The entire TSN panel agreed that Davies should not be taking that penalty. Herdman gives the squad a lot of freedom… which is often a good thing. But sometimes strengths become weaknesses. 

And had it gone in they would have said the opposite lol.

I've no problem with Herdman sticking with his philosophy that has got the team to this point. Knowing this group it will likely only motivate them further.

Hard not to feel down. We deserved at least a draw. Silly not to see how far we have come and who we were playing. What a bright future this group of players have!

Bring on Croatia.

[clamlinguine]

2 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

Do we get a result in this game if Davies doesn't start?

The danger is Belgium would pin their ears back and overwhelm us like Mexico did when we took him off in Edmonton, or like Spain did to the Ticos today.

2 hours ago, football_world said:

Is there a reason that John Herdman didn't start Cyle Larin? Cyle Larin is our best goal scorer and aside from the penalty shot, Cyle Larin probably had the best shot on goal for Canada with his header. Our problem is that we don't have world class finishers (which is fine, it's not like we're going to produce world class finishers overnight, it takes time to grow them).  Most of our best chances came when Cyle Larin was on the bench, if Cyle Larin had been there when we had our best chances, it may have made the difference.

Did Cyle Larin make our formation or whatever strategy we had, worse against Belgium and that's why John Herdman didn't start Cyle Larin?

Otherwise, I give John Herdman a B+ or A- in this match. Overall, I'm happy with the way Canada played. We actually created a lot of chances and we had Belgium on the backfoot.  Not bad, given that Belgium is #2 in the FIFA rankings. I was worried about a 7-0 drubbing like Spain gave to Costa Rica.  Against the #2 ranked team in the world, we walked away with a pretty respectable match.  So that's why I give John Herdman a B+ or A- for this match. I still want to know why John Herdman didn't start Cyle Larin though.

Maybe because without Larin we dominated the game and had 3 potential PKs. But, bringing in Larin when we did was the right move imo.

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

David looked nervous all game.  I have no idea but maybe he didn't want it. Still Vitoria should be next in my opinion. Or even Junior.

Yeah, his feet looked heavy. He was the least impressive of our guys imo.

Edited November 23, 2022 by clamlinguine

[Unnamed Trialist]

Listening to the Spanish RTVE broadcoast after the day, and quite a few said Belgium looked poor, we deserved far more. And a lot of Saint Courtois stuff.

Specifically, Julio Salinas, who had not yet seen detailed highlights, was bewildered we did not get a penalty for that back pass by Belgium that they called an offside for us.

[Joe MacCarthy]