Bahrain vs Canada - Friday, November 11th - 10:30am EST / 7:30am Pacific - Isa Town, Bahrain

[InglewoodJack]

Also, for all the talk of second division, has anyone watched Ligue 2 lately? There is some talent there, sure, but some of their worst teams are absolutely terrible, much more than what you would see in the championship.

[Unnamed Trialist]

42 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

The idea of a "brotherhood" has been misconstrued, I think. I never read it as Herdman giving undeserving places due to familiarity, I understand it as a concept of building a core group of Canadians that are going to show up, enthusiastically, when called up, and form the basis of a program that can find sustained success over many years.

Our men's basketball team has a similar concept- we've always struggled to recruit NBA players to play for us, but Nick Nurse & co basically struck an agreement with a who's who of Canadian NBA players to form the core of what will be our national team moving forward. It doesn't mean the 15th man is going to make the team every single time, but it means that when one NBA all star commits to Canada, he knows the other ones will too.

I feel the "brotherhood" is less so that Doneil Henry can get a free trip to Qatar, I think it's more so that when a player like Alphonso Davies has to weigh his work on the world's best football club and his work for the world's 40th best country, he knows that if he goes all in for Canada, so will Jonathan David, Eustaquio, Hoilett, etc. You take a team like Morocco, and sure their players had issue with the coach, but until recently, they were expected to miss some big pieces. For us, it's unfathomable for Jonathan David to say, actually, I'm going to focus on my club career because the coach's system is poor or whatever.

The brotherhood is mostly about ensuring a broad available pool, and then vetoing any dissent or show of displeasure if you don't play.

It is mostly convenient for the coach, so he does not have to manage dissent, and can play who he wants, when he wants, how he wants.

He's lucky it worked, mostly, as Herdman perceived we were cliquey (sp?) and had internal groups that showed divisions and were not on the same page. So the concept helped keep players in line, and established a code of solidarity that included putting up and shutting up when not personally happy with one's role.

I don't mind this, to a point. Probably all national teams and clubs have to have this sort of locker-room discipline. On a club a player not getting minutes can have his agent query why, or ask for a transfer out or a loan to get time. But managers also have to be smart and get their rosters involved, it is their responsibility to keep the players happy, not impose a dubious concept with no specific football value to facilitate it.

For a NT it is not the case, you are in, or you are out, and you have no options. So you get these classic cases of historically excellent players on the outs of their national programme and not getting international calls for reasons of character, perception or discipline (Morocco just sorted some of this out, to give an example; Spain has left off historically quality strikers today performing well this season, and the reasons really are not clear). 

Brothers and brotherhood, that was just a seasonal campaign. Next manager could come in and just concern himself with football strategy, leave the psychology and character-building aside and just do old-school disciplinary stuff, and have similar or better success, for a simple reason: he's a good coach with good players. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Bertuzzi44]

Herdman needs to leave Kaye off the World Cup roster. MAK has had SO MANY opportunities, be it at the MNT level or club level, to show the great form he had previously at LAFC, and simply hasn't delivered. Someone referenced his "ceiling" earlier and unfortunately his "new" ceiling appears to be 'decent sub', whereas his floor is 'shocking'. Simply not good enough for the World Cup roster imo.

I would take Wotherspoon, Fraser, heck even Choinière, etc over MAK at this point. Someone like Arfield would be a no-brainer, giga-upgrade over Kaye for me.

Re: Corbeanu and the Championship, is there a site that has the breakdown of World Cup roster players and what league they play in? I suspect the Championship would be the best represented 2nd-tier league on the list. I have no problem with the level Corbeanu plays at, especially since guys like Brym (dutch 2nd tier) and Fraser (Belgium 2nd tier) and both in the conversation for Qatar as well.

[Califax]

18 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

You need mental toughness to succeed going into Central America. We have failed for 36 yrs  and often it was not because of a lack of talent. It was a lack of belief that Canada could win and that is the mental part of the game. It was something  JH identified very early when he got the job. It was his idea/plan to use that concept and approach that the military and perhaps the All Blacks utilize. You could see it in games where we refused to be intimidated, the support from the subs on the bench, the singing of the National Anthem etc. It's part of the coaching package that JH implemented and here we are going to Qatar. How can anyone argue with success and the "Brotherhood", is part of that success. Who cares if it's a buzzword? I mean  Borjan and Atiba bought into it as did  the rest of the team.  We are not a Belgium or Croatia. This team still needs to progress and  mental toughness is going to be needed big time in Qatar.  Are some players out of form? sure but it's not like we have All star players waiting to step in.  I suspect  JH still feels that unity on the team is more important at this stage vs messing with it by bringing in new players. Just take a look at how Waterman performed today for example.

We agree on a lot here man, I just don’t chalk it up to a buzzword. However you can’t cherry pick.

Waterman didn’t succeed when he came in late, Kone and Ugbo came in mid brotherhood and we’re great. Should they not have been brought in? 

I buy into the need for disciplined team cohesion, but a lot of people framing it like a Harvard final club. The former got them to the World Cup, the latter is an excuse to take guys who don’t have the skill to be there. 

I’ve said it before there’s gonna be 31 other brotherhoods of this World Cup, the next World Cup will have 47 other brotherhoods.

[Kadenge]

Don't think there were many teams lining up to host us, but in future t some level of field standard/quality has to be part of playing a game this close to a WC. We could have had multiple injuries today. There was almost no traction and the field got cut up pretty bad.  Positives, Oso is ready to go & Kone looks like he could start or play significant mins if called upon. While the team was already selected, I wonder if ZBG has taken the 26th spot, especially if Richie and Johnston are not in form. I really hope Alistair can shake off today's game. We need him to be at his best. 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Kadenge

[InglewoodJack]

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The brotherhood is mostly about ensuring a broad available pool, and then vetoing any dissent or show of displeasure if you don't play.

It is mostly convenient for the coach, so he does not have to manage dissent, and can play who he wants, when he wants, how he wants.

He's lucky it worked, mostly, as Herdman perceived we were cliquey (sp?) and had internal groups that showed divisions and were not on the same page. So the concept helped keep players in line, and established a code of solidarity that included putting up and shutting up when not personally happy with one's role.

I don't mind this, to a point. Probably all national teams and clubs have to have this sort of locker-room discipline. On a club a player not getting minutes can have his agent query why, or ask for a transfer out or a loan to get time. But managers also have to be smart and get their rosters involved, it is their responsibility to keep the players happy, not impose a dubious concept with no specific football value to facilitate it.

For a NT it is not the case, you are in, or you are out, and you have no options. So you get these classic cases of historically excellent players on the outs of their national programme and not getting international calls for reasons of character, perception or discipline (Morocco just sorted some of this out, to give an example; Spain has left off historically quality strikers today performing well this season, and the reasons really are not clear). 

Brothers and brotherhood, that was just a seasonal campaign. Next manager could come in and just concern himself with football strategy, leave the psychology and character-building aside and just do old-school disciplinary stuff, and have similar or better success, for a simple reason: he's a good coach with good players. 

The notion of a brotherhood prevents more and more cases like Arfield- a player who didn't want to play the minnows, won't bare with the team when they have to trudge through central america. If you build a team culture that basically says your Fifa best xi player all the way down to your MLS bit players are going to show up against the Cayman Islands just like they will show up against Belgium, then that is a team that you can count to build upon. Of course, if the team is every man for himself, then we likely don't get this far. I mean, why should Jonathan David risk getting injured on a Haitian pitch when he's looking to make a career defining move this year unless he knows our other players of similar pedigree will also be there? You hear a guy like Eustaquio talking about how committing to us was the best decision he's ever made- that's a guy who thinks he's playing for something with other players that are also playing for something. He gives it his all, and he knows the other guys will too.

With your example of Spain, and the recurring argument against "the brotherhood", I don't understand it, because it isn't like we have a deep pool of players you can make us a better team, but Herdman is choosing to play worse players because they were with the team back when we started the qualification cycle. Our list of good european players who are not in consideration for Qatar is very thin, and our list of good MLS players who are not in consideration for Qatar, as we just saw is even thinner.

As it stands, we have many of our greatest players ever who have all bought in to the notion that grinding on some of the worst pitches in the world is worth it, and because of that, we're going to the World Cup. We're developing and integrating some good young players who can be big parts for 2026. A manager managing a 79th ranked country in the world can't afford to give tough love, because the guys just won't care about playing. Maybe by the time Herdman is gone, the next coach will have such an abundance of players that we can pick or choose who we want, but currently, that isn't the case. We need our greats to be bought in, and we need to tweak the depth around there. I think, for the most part, considering who is in our pool, that's what Herdman has done.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

The notion of a brotherhood prevents more and more cases like Arfield- a player who didn't want to play the minnows, won't bare with the team when they have to trudge through central america. If you build a team culture that basically says your Fifa best xi player all the way down to your MLS bit players are going to show up against the Cayman Islands just like they will show up against Belgium, then that is a team that you can count to build upon. Of course, if the team is every man for himself, then we likely don't get this far. I mean, why should Jonathan David risk getting injured on a Haitian pitch when he's looking to make a career defining move this year unless he knows our other players of similar pedigree will also be there? You hear a guy like Eustaquio talking about how committing to us was the best decision he's ever made- that's a guy who thinks he's playing for something with other players that are also playing for something. He gives it his all, and he knows the other guys will too.

With your example of Spain, and the recurring argument against "the brotherhood", I don't understand it, because it isn't like we have a deep pool of players you can make us a better team, but Herdman is choosing to play worse players because they were with the team back when we started the qualification cycle. Our list of good european players who are not in consideration for Qatar is very thin, and our list of good MLS players who are not in consideration for Qatar, as we just saw is even thinner.

As it stands, we have many of our greatest players ever who have all bought in to the notion that grinding on some of the worst pitches in the world is worth it, and because of that, we're going to the World Cup. We're developing and integrating some good young players who can be big parts for 2026. A manager managing a 79th ranked country in the world can't afford to give tough love, because the guys just won't care about playing. Maybe by the time Herdman is gone, the next coach will have such an abundance of players that we can pick or choose who we want, but currently, that isn't the case. We need our greats to be bought in, and we need to tweak the depth around there. I think, for the most part, considering who is in our pool, that's what Herdman has done.

 

 

Fine, the part about our chronic problems getting committments to play the minnows, well taken. 

But once that happens and they've demonstrated loyalty, don't call up a guy way below their level like Brym, proving pro ambition isn't important and undermining a basic principle you're trying to foster. And frigging well play guys like Cornelius and Millar the last day against Panama. If you are not clear about that, you are not even understanding your own point. And you are doing damage to your concept because the rewards are not there even when there's nothing to play for. 

I don't mind a coach making unfair choices, to a point, as you say when players are all top notch you can do that (Luis Enrique called up Morata when there are 4 Spaniards scoring more in La Liga, two been doing so for a few years, Aspas and Borja Iglesias). So it's true, we are only talking about the periphery and not about the core. We are not likely to play too many players in poorer form, less so start them.

[jonovision]

16 minutes ago, Califax said:

Waterman didn’t succeed when he came in late, Kone and Ugbo came in mid brotherhood and we’re great. Should they not have been brought in? 

What has Ugbo done, ever, for Canada that would qualify as great or even as particularly useful?

[wallflower]

So, all in, how did CF Montreal do without its star player, Nancy?

[Califax]

3 minutes ago, jonovision said:

What has Ugbo done, ever, for Canada that would qualify as great or even as particularly useful?

You wouldn’t put him on the plane? 

[PegCityCam]

54 minutes ago, Califax said:

Or - and hear me out here - we had enough talent to get there, were organized and well coached,  and it wasn't a buzzword. 

You're right, they had the talent, but were clearly not all on the same page. And the coaching was never quite enough to push and pull them to the place they needed to be to qualify. As the now fabled story goes, it was after Herdman's impassioned, "We're A Talented Fucking Team Who Has Never, In The History Of Talented Fucking Canadian Teams, Made The World Cup" speech, that the players came up with "The Brotherhood". Herdman makes a point of calling it "their term". We've all seen the interview, and it's Herdman's story for sure, but nobody's calling him a liar.

Also, do you have a brother? If you do, you surely know that brothers will "kill to eat", as you put in an earlier post. Heck, one of the earliest stories ever told is about two brothers, one of whom killed the other "to eat". However, as all brothers can attest to, killing each other is not ideal. Healthy competition to the brink of death, however, is fair play...but so is being there for one another in the thick of it, when death is staring you both straight in the face. 

Rah rah and all that bullshit lol.

[jonovision]

6 minutes ago, Califax said:

You wouldn’t put him on the plane? 

He probably goes, but it's not like he has really made the most of any opportunity. 

[Califax]

7 minutes ago, jonovision said:

He probably goes, but it's not like he has really made the most of any opportunity. 

I feel like he’s shown promise And done stuff the right way. Maybe it’s fair to say that’s all he’s shown But it’s enough for me to rate him higher than a few others that have been kicking around the program and failed to step up.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Califax
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[vancanman]

4 hours ago, rydermike said:

Canada's women's team scored two goals off corners. Maybe whoever designs their corners can design us a corner. Nothing special just crosses into the actual box

You might want to specify "the opposition's box" to avoid confusion.

Actually, let's just send them your post, and we've already made an improvement.

Edited November 11, 2022 by vancanman

[phil03]

39 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

The notion of a brotherhood prevents more and more cases like Arfield- a player who didn't want to play the minnows, won't bare with the team when they have to trudge through central america. 

 

Except Arfield, and I guess Simon in Eredivisie, who are the significant omissions you have liked to see? Honestly, I can't think of that many other significant players from the best on paper team we don't have.

More broadly, I do think its fair to remember that there is a lot of stuff behind the scene that we don't know. Like, there was literally fights in practices before, in the team Arfield was the captain off, and it apparently was seen as pretty much normal... I'd argue that this needed to change if anything was to ever be achieved by that team. Your on paper strength is only gonna so far with that atmosphere and Herdman's role isn't to build the best squad on paper, its to assemble the squad that has best chances to get results, which nobody can deny he did.

Maybe Arfield's falling out with the team was just over the games over minnows, as you said, or maybe he was a key part of the problem before. When it come down to it we just don't know!

[VinceA]

2 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Except Arfield, and I guess Simon in Eredivisie, who are the significant omissions you have liked to see? Honestly, I can't think of that many other significant players from the best on paper team we don't have.

More broadly, I do think its fair to remember that there is a lot of stuff behind the scene that we don't know. Like, there was literally fights in practices before, in the team Arfield was the captain off, and it apparently was seen as pretty much normal... I'd argue that this needed to change if anything was to ever be achieved by that team. Your on paper strength is only gonna so far with that atmosphere and Herdman's role isn't to build the best squad on paper, its to assemble the squad that has best chances to get results, which nobody can deny he did.

Maybe Arfield's falling out with the team was just over the games over minnows, as you said, or maybe he was a key part of the problem before. When it come down to it we just don't know!

Simon Colyn has no business being near this squad.

[phil03]

3 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Simon Colyn has no business being near this squad.

I wouldn't put him at this point either, was just trying to think of everyone else, but that only reinforce my point: except Arfield who exactly is a significant omission from what would be Canada's on paper best team?

[gkhs]

2 minutes ago, phil03 said:

I wouldn't put him at this point either, was just trying to think of everyone else, but that only reinforce my point: except Arfield who exactly is a significant omission from what would be Canada's on paper best team?

Manjrekar James - especially in the current injury context.

Edited November 11, 2022 by gkhs

[prairiecanuck]

53 minutes ago, jonovision said:

What has Ugbo done, ever, for Canada that would qualify as great or even as particularly useful?

When has he had the opportunity?  His sample size is a small one. 

[Razcal]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

By taking the entire group to Qatar from Bahrain, we are going to get an odd scenario: guys sitting in Qatar learning they are in and, in some cases, they are out. Weird I find.

I'm certain they will have had conversations with the players individually, it's not like they are going to be learning about their status when the roster is released.

[BearcatSA]

29 minutes ago, Razcal said:

I'm certain they will have had conversations with the players individually, it's not like they are going to be learning about their status when the roster is released.

Not the way I was cut from my peewee rep hockey team tryout many decades ago, when 25 of us were crowded into one dressing and the coach walked over to each player (me first, naturally) and said he wasn't going to be on the team.  Ouch!

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by BearcatSA

[Joe Keeper]

Does anyone with a OneSoccer subscription know if they will be posting the match to their watchable archive. I didnt get to watch the live show. 

Its weird, its not up yet.

[SpursFlu]

Ugbo got dropped in to this team and really hasn't done much given more opportunities than most. He's paid zero dues in Canadian football. So if people have no issues with him being on the plane I really dont know why it's an issue for anyone else making the team 

My attitude is simple.. bring the best players that give you the best opportunity to win. All the little nuances about this or that. Over to Herdman to decide because he's really the only one in a position to really know all those little tie breakers 

[Bertuzzi44]

1 hour ago, Joe Keeper said:

Does anyone with a OneSoccer subscription know if they will be posting the match to their watchable archive. I didnt get to watch the live show. 

Its weird, its not up yet.

Bahrain Sport channel to the rescue:

 

[Joe Keeper]

Awesome, thanks, Bertuzzi. Reminds me of the good old days when we had to look for anything CanNTs anywhere we could find a broadcast from other countries just for a friendly match. Of course Sportsnet would be showing baseball when the match was on...

Edited November 12, 2022 by Joe Keeper