Bahrain vs Canada - Friday, November 11th - 10:30am EST / 7:30am Pacific - Isa Town, Bahrain

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 minutes ago, Free kick said:

 But it doesnt mean that the talent in the championship  is anywhere close to World class. 

That a pretty massive move of the goal posts.  The vast majority of talent in the top leagues in the world in not anywhere close to world class.  No one thinks Kone has world class talent yet.  Are there players in the Championship that might have world class potential, like (if all the soccer gods smile on us) he might? Of course.

Edited November 11, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Free kick]

7 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

??? Take a peak at England's roster and see where all of their players got their start.

Stop it guys.   Your making it up.   And really stretching facts.  How many of those players had a loan stint in their youth as transition to EPL?  Because they werent ready phyiscally or mentally.  Thats why your seeing that. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Free kick

[toontownman]

Didn't have alot to do and the game was likely dead when he came on but thought MacNaughton looks assured and solid. Great to see.

Surprised Nelson wasn't used earlier.

My biggest gripe of the game was keeping Miller on for so long when he was clearly in discomfort and injured. Absolutle madness.

Great to see Oso looking fit and Kone continues to be a stud although he should have had two goals.

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

That a pretty massive move of the goal posts.  The vast majority of talent in the top leagues in the world in not anywhere close to world class.  No one thinks Kone has world class talent yet.  Are there players in the Championship that might have world class potential, like (if all the soccer gods smile on us) he might? Of course.

Saudi Arabia is going with an entirely domestic team. Iran has a ton of domestics too. Australia has multiple A-League players. We're dangerously close from calling up a player whose team has a good chance of being relegated into the Belgian semi-pro division. I don't think who is at the world cup is a factor for which leagues are best.

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

Stop it guys.   Your making it up.   And really stretching facts.  How many of those players had a loan stint in their youth as transition to EPL?  Because they werent ready phyiscally or mentally.  Thats why your seeing that. 

Are you aware... who Theo Corbeanu is under contract with? Because that's what started this discussion, and that is the exact reason he is at Blackpool right now.

[Free kick]

2 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Are you aware... who Theo Corbeanu is under contract with? Because that's what started this discussion, and that is the exact reason he is at Blackpool right now.

Yes.  I will give you that.  And i am aware.   But the english stars who had stints in in the championship got call ups not while they were in the CL.  
 

How many CL players have ever been called up by England? 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Saudi Arabia is going with an entirely domestic team. Iran has a ton of domestics too. Australia has multiple A-League players. We're dangerously close from calling up a player whose team has a good chance of being relegated into the Belgian semi-pro division. I don't think who is at the world cup is a factor for which leagues are best.

Bit confused.  Not talking about World Cup at all. Just world class players.

[InglewoodJack]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

Yes.  I will give you that.  And i am aware.   But the english stars who had stints in in the championship got call ups not while they were in the CL.  
 

How many CL players have ever been called up by England? 

No, of course their players don't get called from the Championship, because England is a top 10 nation in the world, has been pretty much forever, and they recruit nearly their entire team from the Premier League. But you said that isn't a place for prospects who are very good- that is untrue, because England's best prospects often start off there.

As for your second question, not that it's the point, but since 2000, England has actually called up 5 Championship players:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_England_international_footballers_capped_while_playing_for_a_lower_division_club

[InglewoodJack]

3 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Bit confused.  Not talking about World Cup at all. Just world class players.

Yeah, I misread your post. Think there was a post a few pages back about how no one at the world cup is going to play Championship players, but many teams are bringing players who are nowhere near championship level.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 minute ago, InglewoodJack said:

Yeah, I misread your post. Think there was a post a few pages back about how no one at the world cup is going to play Championship players, but many teams are bringing players who are nowhere near championship level.

https://the72.co.uk/2022/11/01/all-the-championship-players-potentially-going-to-the-2022-world-cup-in-qatar/amp/

Not updated for the final rosters but some decent players in there obviously.

[Free kick]

36 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

https://the72.co.uk/2022/11/01/all-the-championship-players-potentially-going-to-the-2022-world-cup-in-qatar/amp/

Not updated for the final rosters but some decent players in there obviously.

Hah yes.  A media source from the UK 😀
 

edit.:  upon reading that article.  It kind of proves my point doesnt it?    That about 18 names and most are a very big stretch as possible inclusion in WC squads.  Do you see house hold names in that list. ?  Do you see anyone on that list who will figure prominantly in WCQ previews?   Unlike, say, some players playing in the belgium first division?  Or even MLS? And finally how many of those players actaully got picked?  Yes, one or two like Sargent but that pales in comparasion to very many leagues. 
 

PS: Thank you for posting that!   Because it really does prove my point of what i have been saying all along on this topic.    It also tells you something atititudes.  The attitudes of the writers of that piece is taht some of the americans (for example) on that list that because you are in english soccer at the CL level, it must make you a canadidate for your NT.  But in reality,  a few of those americans are unknowns and off the radar of the USMNT program.  It takes a certain attitude to believe that they actually are.  Which is an other point inhave ben making all along about the “CL is the 10th best league in the world”.  Its rooted in attitudes.   

Edited November 11, 2022 by Free kick

[Kadenge]

2 hours ago, Califax said:

I rag on 'the brotherhood' because I think it always posed a danger of people not having to kill to eat. I think we're seeing a bit of that.

It got us to the WC

[Califax]

5 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

It got us to the WC

Or - and hear me out here - we had enough talent to get there, were organized and well coached,  and it wasn't a buzzword. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Califax

[Kadenge]

2 hours ago, footballfreak said:

I said through qualifying and in nations league that I think Cornelius could centre a back 3. Rewatched Jamaica away a few days ago, and he did pretty much everything that was asked of him. Big in the air, tidy with the ball, clipped a few great long balls to the wings. Herdman seems to be completely against trying any of our left footed cbs in that central role though. 

I think he played that position in Concacaf Olympic qualifying and made the Tournament XI iirc? Going back to GC 2019, I don't recall him having a poor game for Canada. He really should have got more playing time, especially in the last away game to Panama

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

3 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Hah yes.  A media source from the UK 😀
 

edit.:  upon reading that article. It kind of proves my point doesnt it?    Do you see house hold names in that list.    ?  Do you see anyone that list who will figure prominantly in WCQ previews? 

Its just a list of players who have played for national teams who made the World Cup.  It could be complied anywhere and bias can't come into it. Weird take before you read it.

 

 

I am actually not sure what your point is at this point.  Kone is not going to walk into a world class team anywhere.  He is not a household name (there are a few on that list,  for me) So why does the league he goes to need to have a bunch of those, for him to develop? That is, in the end, what we want, right? Even our viewing enjoyment is somewhat secondary.

You don't like the English leagues, fair enough.  I tried to go back to Serie A after many years recently, I found it boring.  Does not mean there aren't a number of talented players there or even those that fill a roles there. For example,  I wouldn't hate David going to a top team there; playing regularly  in a more competitive league would be good for him.

There are a different set of benefits for Kone in the Championship but they are there for me.

[InglewoodJack]

The idea of a "brotherhood" has been misconstrued, I think. I never read it as Herdman giving undeserving places due to familiarity, I understand it as a concept of building a core group of Canadians that are going to show up, enthusiastically, when called up, and form the basis of a program that can find sustained success over many years.

Our men's basketball team has a similar concept- we've always struggled to recruit NBA players to play for us, but Nick Nurse & co basically struck an agreement with a who's who of Canadian NBA players to form the core of what will be our national team moving forward. It doesn't mean the 15th man is going to make the team every single time, but it means that when one NBA all star commits to Canada, he knows the other ones will too.

I feel the "brotherhood" is less so that Doneil Henry can get a free trip to Qatar, I think it's more so that when a player like Alphonso Davies has to weigh his work on the world's best football club and his work for the world's 40th best country, he knows that if he goes all in for Canada, so will Jonathan David, Eustaquio, Hoilett, etc. You take a team like Morocco, and sure their players had issue with the coach, but until recently, they were expected to miss some big pieces. For us, it's unfathomable for Jonathan David to say, actually, I'm going to focus on my club career because the coach's system is poor or whatever.

[Free kick]

1 minute ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

 

You don't like the English leagues, fair enough.  

I NEVER SAID THAT!

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, Free kick said:

I NEVER SAID THAT!

"I have watched games involving Championsip sides and the absence of elite talent is very noticeable.  Especailly offensive talent.  And its hard to watch to be honnest.   

(Apparently I don't know how to double quote from a different page)

That and lengthy conversations about the Premier League's lack of talent made me believe that is what you believe.  

I am sorry if I misinterpreted. 

[The Beaver 2.0]

On Kone: What we all want is for him to continue developing in a suitably challenging but nurturing environment. If he goes to the UK, then one would hope he gets signed by a well-established team willing to develop a young talent like Kone, who will likely loan him out to the Championship so he can get real minutes and grow etc.

I would still much prefer he went to the Bundesliga. I just feel the Germans do a better job of developing young talent than the EPL does. Gross generalization? Maybe, but it feels right to me.

Having said that, it could be that one more year in Montreal will set him up for a more beneficial move to Europe than if he goes over the winter. KJ and Platt seem pretty convinced, however, that he won't be back in Montreal next year.

[Free kick]

18 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

"I have watched games involving Championsip sides and the absence of elite talent is very noticeable.  Especailly offensive talent.  And its hard to watch to be honnest.   

(Apparently I don't know how to double quote from a different page)

That and lengthy conversations about the Premier League's lack of talent made me believe that is what you believe.  

I am sorry if I misinterpreted. 

But thats true.  I did say that and i stand by it.   I could and will say the same about second divisions in germany, spain, italy, france …. Etc anywhere.   Its second division soccer!    England, the Cl, is no different.  Other than the fact taht they pay more money.

i never said anything about the premiership’s laack of talent!  Again where did i say that?  If you are referring to to another post that the past world cup have shown that best players (Balon d’or etc) at teh world cup play in other leagues.  I gave you a list of players to prove it.   IT DOESNT MEAN I HATE THE PREMIERSHIP!  IT DOESNT MEAN I HATE ENGLAND.  I LOVE ENGLAND!  Been there a few time have friends from there.   

Edited November 11, 2022 by Free kick

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

22 minutes ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

On Kone: What we all want is for him to continue developing in a suitably challenging but nurturing environment. If he goes to the UK, then one would hope he gets signed by a well-established team willing to develop a young talent like Kone, who will likely loan him out to the Championship so he can get real minutes and grow etc.

I would still much prefer he went to the Bundesliga. I just feel the Germans do a better job of developing young talent than the EPL does. Gross generalization? Maybe, but it feels right to me.

Having said that, it could be that one more year in Montreal will set him up for a more beneficial move to Europe than if he goes over the winter. KJ and Platt seem pretty convinced, however, that he won't be back in Montreal next year.

All good points.  I love what the Germans have done, even with English players, in the last few years.  My point generally was the are much worse places he could go than the Championship and it would not be a backwards move.

Edited November 11, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Mihairokov]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Saudi Arabia is going with an entirely domestic team. Iran has a ton of domestics too. Australia has multiple A-League players. We're dangerously close from calling up a player whose team has a good chance of being relegated into the Belgian semi-pro division. I don't think who is at the world cup is a factor for which leagues are best.

When Costa Rica made the World Cup Quarterfinals in 2014 they had nine players that played in Costa Rica. In the same WC half of Honduras' team was domestic. 

Compare that to African countries who routinely go to WC with only a backup goalie or bench player playing domestically. These sorts of things don't matter all that much.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Mihairokov

[SpursFlu]

Junior Hoilett plays in the Championship. I think he's easily one of our best players

[Kadenge]

1 minute ago, Califax said:

Or - and hear me out here - we had enough talent to get there, were organized and well coached,  and it wasn't a buzzword. 

You need mental toughness to succeed going into Central America. We have failed for 36 yrs  and often it was not because of a lack of talent. It was a lack of belief that Canada could win and that is the mental part of the game. It was something  JH identified very early when he got the job. It was his idea/plan to use that concept and approach that the military and perhaps the All Blacks utilize. You could see it in games where we refused to be intimidated, the support from the subs on the bench, the singing of the National Anthem etc. It's part of the coaching package that JH implemented and here we are going to Qatar. How can anyone argue with success and the "Brotherhood", is part of that success. Who cares if it's a buzzword? I mean  Borjan and Atiba bought into it as did  the rest of the team.  We are not a Belgium or Croatia. This team still needs to progress and  mental toughness is going to be needed big time in Qatar.  Are some players out of form? sure but it's not like we have All star players waiting to step in.  I suspect  JH still feels that unity on the team is more important at this stage vs messing with it by bringing in new players. Just take a look at how Waterman performed today for example.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

18 minutes ago, Free kick said:

But thats true.  I did say that and i stand by it.   I could and will say the same about second divisions in germany, spain, italy, france …. Etc anywhere.   Its second division soccer!    England, the Cl, is no different.  Other than the fact taht they pay more money.

That's a bit silly, of course there are differences in second divisions.  Just like there are differences in first divisions. 

Seems like the second division things means way too much in your thinking. He needs to go to the right situation where he will play and develop.  We have no control over that in the end  but there is nothing about the Championship being a second division that prevents it.

Have a good night, mate.  Honestly agreed to disagree I guess. 

Edited November 11, 2022 by WestHamCanadianinOxford