Voyageurs Pick a Side

[Admin]

14 minutes ago, shermanator said:

Yes and no.

Supporters groups have the biggest voice that can be leveraged to influence how a club / national organization can change their ways.

But I think you have to be very careful with what issues you take a stance on. When a supporters group gets to a certain size, you are kind of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Taking a stance on either side sees you lose people, and not taking a stance sees you lose people.

 

You're in a tough position though where you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

So much of it is pure narcissistic garbage, no matter how real the issue at hand actually is.   If people want to support XYZ go support it.  Join those groups, go to those rallies.  The coopting of every single thing on earth for causes external to the mission of that organization can be a mistake.  In many cases I bet you could even argue that some organizations go so far that they even violate their fiduciary duty of stewardship/management.  

I believe there is a real fundamental benefit to having something people with different beliefs can support together.  Naive sounding sure, but I have seen the positive effect of this over and over again in soccer. In the supporters groups and on teams.  

[Stryker911]

30 minutes ago, Admin said:

Our position is both amazing, and precarious.  I have personally done and said things in the past that have almost completely killed this.  That would have been grossly unfair to everyone.  So I stay mostly silent, and just ensure that we do the one thing no one, at any level anywhere can say shit about.  Show up.  

We are not a club team.  We don't have season tickets, every single game is new.  Heck, it isn't even a given we can hang our banners at a game, or set up flags.  Those things are negotiated on our behalf by Canada Soccer...every single game with the relevant union.  Every single game.

The people in Canada Soccer today are very supportive of us, and this was NOT always the case.  We outlasted pretty much everyone, by simply stubbornly showing up and getting shit done in the stadium.  The only 'political' move I have ever made was to call in a lot of favors to get us more tickets to the USA game in Hamilton.  That worked, but I would not try it again for a decade.   Canada soccer gave us almost 4000 seats to the Jamaica game.  People really  have to stop and really grasp how fucking amazing that is.  While today we are a legal organization (clarification of that in the fall), it really has been nothing more than me and a website for the majority of that time.   The only real agreement in place we have is the Voyageurs Cup.  Everything else is game to game.  There is zero guarantee, should there be a wholesale changeover at Canada Soccer, that we ever have a supporters section again. 

This website was divorced from the Voyageurs because it has at times been completely insane.  Not sure in today's social media world people have the time or inclination to read everything, but there was a time everyone read this site. The desire for vaporizing us for the shit people would read on here was a real thing, many times over. 

We are though in some trouble.  Our base is way too old,  and it is not as easy or obvious how to rectify that when we might not even have a game here till 2023, and only one at that.   While we may ride the high of that qualification run, it masked some real problems for us to draw and fill sections.  I don't think it is clear, but I do feel that problem is there. 

We have literally had more flags in the stadium than our sections have sold tickets for multiple games. So right now, we are not exactly doing the one thing that has kept us alive all this time, and that is a problem.

 

I get what you are saying. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been showing up to the stadium in Canada and being outnumbered by the away supporters. 

It is good Canada Soccer is supportive of the Voyageurs. 

However, similar to what Johnston said yesterday the players have a leg to stand on now. So do the Voyageurs, they were huge on TV during wcq. You were getting interviews on national TV. Now the voyageurs are well known enough to have a voice in this nation.

I guess we can't really ask Bontis to step down, but we could say something like we want all parties to work together to build Canadian soccer and grow a sustainable future for the sport in this country.

[Admin]

4 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

 

However, similar to what Johnston said yesterday the players have a leg to stand on now. So do the Voyageurs, they were huge on TV during wcq.

My point is we don't.  We are in a very precarious position and the one card we have up our sleeve is on the rocks at the moment. There are a lot of legitimate explanations for why we sold so few tickets. 

We cannot continue to block off thousands of seats a stadium and not sell them, while thinking we are in some kind of position of power. 

[Shway]

I’m torn in between the two tbh. Both statements from both sides gave me negative feelings. 

I don’t know what side to “pick”.
I like what the CSB has done, and is doing.
I appreciate where the CMNT has finally taken us.

But ’most importantly I want transparency, as I have been asking for years about money and how it’s used, and questioned the CSA reports well before this became an issue. 

[shermanator]

9 minutes ago, Admin said:

I believe there is a real fundamental benefit to having something people with different beliefs can support together.  Naive sounding sure, but I have seen the positive effect of this over and over again in soccer. In the supporters groups and on teams.  

It's a great thought and one which I share. But let's be honest, it never works out that way.

Once you get to a certain size, the group has to stand for certain things and people can choose whether they want to join. Easier to apply this to club supporters, as in Calgary, for example, we have 5 different groups that do things a different way.

Not trying to advocate that you should take a stand here. Just trying to relay the perspective from a supporters group that's growing, not shrinking.

[JamboAl]

9 minutes ago, shermanator said:

It's a great thought and one which I share. But let's be honest, it never works out that way.

Once you get to a certain size, the group has to stand for certain things and people can choose whether they want to join. Easier to apply this to club supporters, as in Calgary, for example, we have 5 different groups that do things a different way.

Not trying to advocate that you should take a stand here. Just trying to relay the perspective from a supporters group that's growing, not shrinking.

Actually, I think we are right now (and until the WC) at its highest level.  I just can’t see that level being kept up in 2023-2024-2025.  And are the Voyageurs going to have a section for the WC in 2026?  History would say no.  We didn’t get one for Qatar.

The sales for the women’s friendlies were eye opening.

[Admin]

6 minutes ago, shermanator said:

It's a great thought and one which I share. But let's be honest, it never works out that way.

Once you get to a certain size, the group has to stand for certain things and people can choose whether they want to join. Easier to apply this to club supporters, as in Calgary, for example, we have 5 different groups that do things a different way.

Not trying to advocate that you should take a stand here. Just trying to relay the perspective from a supporters group that's growing, not shrinking.

I don't think it is inevitable or necessary, no matter the size.   I don't think it will work out that way, and it will change. 

 

[SpursFlu]

22 minutes ago, shermanator said:

It's a great thought and one which I share. But let's be honest, it never works out that way.

Once you get to a certain size, the group has to stand for certain things and people can choose whether they want to join. Easier to apply this to club supporters, as in Calgary, for example, we have 5 different groups that do things a different way.

Not trying to advocate that you should take a stand here. Just trying to relay the perspective from a supporters group that's growing, not shrinking.

I think you're talking about 2 different things. I think it makes sense what your saying about supporters "doing things a different way" but I think there is a difference between a club and national side. I also think and respect what guys are doing in Calgary, you're talking about 4000 people at a game. You can't just keep splintering off and what are we talking about.. oh hose guys like drums and we like funny banter. There needs to be a general overriding theme and togetherness if you want to really punch thru and get to that level. Protesting and getting involved in this issue and that issue I get it is natural dare I say fun for some but it's also a massive turnoff for a lot of people. I know when supporting the Whitecaps was fun there were different groups but it was all kinda fun and everyone had fun and played off each other. No it kinda feels like.. do you agree with me on everything that has nothing to do with football???? If not go fuck off and die. So in other words I'll be in the Voyageurs section the next game in Vancouver but I'm not going to stand behind a banner that says I support the Players for more money.. or fire this guy or down with CSB. It's not my idea of a good time and it's not what I think. In fact I think a lot of other things are what's really going on here but I'm not looking to express or expect others to express them in that setting either 

Edited July 14, 2022 by SpursFlu

[dyslexic nam]

I will just point out that the whole idea of this thread is predicated on the idea that we can achieve some sort of consensus on what we should say, when the reality is that we can’t even get consensus of whether or not we should even say anything.  Thus it seems unlikely that we would ever obtain the required unanimity for a common message.  

Having said that, as we move towards more “professionalization” of the group, this will be the sort of thing that we need to sort out.  Who decides these sorts of things in the future? What threshold of support is required to decide something like this?  And who is responsible for medicating Jamie when we invariably fuck it up?    
 

[SpursFlu]

14 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I will just point out that the whole idea of this thread is predicated on the idea that we can achieve some sort of consensus on what we should say, when the reality is that we can’t even get consensus of whether or not we should even say anything.  Thus it seems unlikely that we would ever obtain the required unanimity for a common message.  

Having said that, as we move towards more “professionalization” of the group, this will be the sort of thing that we need to sort out.  Who decides these sorts of things in the future? What threshold of support is required to decide something like this?  And who is responsible for medicating Jamie when we invariably fuck it up?    
 

I think what you want is the group to come to a consensus and say something that reflects what you think.

What if the consensus was

The Voyageurs support the CSA and the formation of the CSB in order to build the Canadian Premier League. We question the sincerity of the journalist from TSN and Bell mobility based on their business relationship with MLSE and the MLS. We do not support an increase in pay for the CMNT and CWNT as we feel their current compensation is more than fair. We look forward to cheering on whichever players decide to represent Canada at the upcoming World Cup under the current agreement. Go Canada 

Sincerely, Voyageurs 

PS... Fk Trudeau 

Does that work for? 😉 probably not

So in others words. I think no statement other than "Go Canada" is needed 

Edited July 14, 2022 by SpursFlu

[shermanator]

48 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Actually, I think we are right now (and until the WC) at its highest level.  I just can’t see that level being kept up in 2023-2024-2025.  And are the Voyageurs going to have a section for the WC in 2026?  History would say no.  We didn’t get one for Qatar.

The sales for the women’s friendlies were eye opening.

I'm just taking Jamie at face value from an earlier post when he says that there are more flags then sold tickets. IMO we've seen a massive spike in interest due to the World Cup run. Everyone should want to harness that momentum and keep those butts in the stands.

[shermanator]

46 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I think you're talking about 2 different things. I think it makes sense what your saying about supporters "doing things a different way" but I think there is a difference between a club and national side. I also think and respect what guys are doing in Calgary, you're talking about 4000 people at a game. You can't just keep splintering off and what are we talking about.. oh hose guys like drums and we like funny banter. There needs to be a general overriding theme and togetherness if you want to really punch thru and get to that level. Protesting and getting involved in this issue and that issue I get it is natural dare I say fun for some but it's also a massive turnoff for a lot of people. I know when supporting the Whitecaps was fun there were different groups but it was all kinda fun and everyone had fun and played off each other. No it kinda feels like.. do you agree with me on everything that has nothing to do with football???? If not go fuck off and die. So in other words I'll be in the Voyageurs section the next game in Vancouver but I'm not going to stand behind a banner that says I support the Players for more money.. or fire this guy or down with CSB. It's not my idea of a good time and it's not what I think. In fact I think a lot of other things are what's really going on here but I'm not looking to express or expect others to express them in that setting either 

Sure, and that's why I'm saying you have to be very selective in what you make a stand on. There are certain issues that should apply to everyone, despite the differences in everyone's personality. 

For me, we have two rules in Calgary. Be good to everyone, and have fun in the stands. If you don't follow those you can get the fuck out, no democracy. 

To me, this situation we're in now has the potential to kill all the good momentum of the last few years, after decades of the local game only appealing to a select few in this country. I would be demanding that all parties (CSA, CSB, MNT, WNT/XNT, PFA Canada) get in this room and get this shit sorted, because they all have a lot of money to lose in this...

[Admin]

17 minutes ago, shermanator said:

I'm just taking Jamie at face value from an earlier post when he says that there are more flags then sold tickets. IMO we've seen a massive spike in interest due to the World Cup run. Everyone should want to harness that momentum and keep those butts in the stands.

It's been rough, but none of the games in question could be called normal exactly. 

There are some solid explanations I think why we sold so few tickets.  

[The Beaver 2.0]

Good discussion, folks.

For my money, I've no interest in being part of the Vees IF we as a group--or our leadership--decides to take sides on an issue where we don't have all the facts.  Too much of contemporary thinking these days is entrenched in dogmatic thinking, where folks choose to voice their support for ideologies that are not even remotely substantiated by fact.  Never mind that most of human society, even with all the facts at their fingertips, do not have the wherewithal to understand the facts, let alone derive some strategy from them.  This isn't to suggest that humans--or Vees--should do nothing at all, but the moment somebody says "what side are you on?" I get my hackles up and start pushing them to support their assertions with credible evidence. I realize this might sound silly to say, but all we should really want is the truth.

So, IF we felt that entering the fray is at all strategically wise here, then I think the message would be a bit broad, along the lines of what a few of you have already suggested, saying that as passionate supporters of the beautiful game in our country we want what is best and most equitable for the sustained growth, development, and success of the game now and well into the future.  We hope for the sake of all soccer supporters in this country that our players, governing bodies, coaching staffs etc. work together with this goal in mind, that they remain transparent and fair in their dealings etc. (Oh, and that they name The Beaver "Soccer Stud of the Century." But I won't hold them to it.)

I think it is fine to have an opinion here, and as the key supporters group we indeed have "some" leverage and profile. But we cannot pick a side without a solid understanding of the facts. One might argue that it is not our place to take sides no matter what, that our mandate sits somewhere outside of this current dispute.  I disagree.  If we had sufficient, quality evidence that specific behaviors and policies were hurting the game in this country, then I think we need to call out those behaviors/policies.  Maybe I am wrong, but I feel we are nowhere near having all the information required to take sides.  As to whether a broad note along the lines of what I suggested above is warranted, useful, or wise...I have no idea. What do you fellers think?

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by The Beaver 2.0

[yellowsweatygorilla]

20 hours ago, Admin said:

The people in Canada Soccer today are very supportive of us, and this was NOT always the case.  We outlasted pretty much everyone, by simply stubbornly showing up and getting shit done in the stadium.  The only 'political' move I have ever made was to call in a lot of favors to get us more tickets to the USA game in Hamilton.  That worked, but I would not try it again for a decade. 

 

If we are so beholden to Canada Soccer, then what's the point of having a supporters group? Isn't the whole point of supporters groups in soccer, as distinguished from other sports in North America, autonomy from front offices and a more genuine relationship with players and the sport - meaning a greater willingness to take stances for the betterment of the game/society? The supporter being less a consumer (in principle anyways, obviously this can often be contradictory) and more an engaged community member? And as many others here have mentioned, supporter groups have a track record of being political given its roots in community. It's what separates supporter groups from some fan group started by the team.

This may come off as unappreciative, I recognize the hours a lot of voyageur members put into building the supporter experience during and outside of games, but personally I don't think having a working relationship with CSA in terms of accessing tickets should trump any principled stance against the CSA (especially when many of us believe that the current CSA leadership is seriously damaging the prospects of the sport). There needs to be a point where we draw the line, and if sexual violence cover-up, reprisals for asking questions, leadership improprieties aren't enough - what is? If the CSA wants to cut voys off, so be it. As supporters we'll always find different ways to engage with players.

[Admin]

2 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

If we are so beholden to Canada Soccer, then what's the point of having a supporters group? Isn't the whole point of supporters groups in soccer, as distinguished from other sports in North America, autonomy from front offices and a more genuine relationship with players and the sport - meaning a greater willingness to take stances for the betterment of the game/society? The supporter being less a consumer (in principle anyways, obviously this can often be contradictory) and more an engaged community member? And as many others here have mentioned, supporter groups have a track record of being political given its roots in community. It's what separates supporter groups from some fan group started by the team.

This may come off as unappreciative, I recognize the hours a lot of voyageur members put into building the supporter experience during and outside of games, but personally I don't think having a working relationship with CSA in terms of accessing tickets should trump any principled stance against the CSA (especially when many of us believe that the current CSA leadership is seriously damaging the prospects of the sport). There needs to be a point where we draw the line, and if sexual violence cover-up, reprisals for asking questions, leadership improprieties aren't enough - what is? If the CSA wants to cut voys off, so be it. As supporters we'll always find different ways to engage with players.

EDITED 

 

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

If we are so beholden to Canada Soccer, then what's the point of having a supporters group? Isn't the whole point of supporters groups in soccer, as distinguished from other sports in North America, autonomy from front offices and a more genuine relationship with players and the sport - meaning a greater willingness to take stances for the betterment of the game/society? The supporter being less a consumer (in principle anyways, obviously this can often be contradictory) and more an engaged community member? And as many others here have mentioned, supporter groups have a track record of being political given its roots in community. It's what separates supporter groups from some fan group started by the team.

This may come off as unappreciative, I recognize the hours a lot of voyageur members put into building the supporter experience during and outside of games, but personally I don't think having a working relationship with CSA in terms of accessing tickets should trump any principled stance against the CSA (especially when many of us believe that the current CSA leadership is seriously damaging the prospects of the sport). There needs to be a point where we draw the line, and if sexual violence cover-up, reprisals for asking questions, leadership improprieties aren't enough - what is? If the CSA wants to cut voys off, so be it. As supporters we'll always find different ways to engage with players.

I think it goes either way. 

You could argue the supporter group has a special and specific role and should use that "authority" and knowledge to opine on various subjects. As you are very aware, many supporter groups in CPL have openly supported the Players Union. We tend to be more knowledgeable than the average fan (though I think this can be overblown at times) and maybe are able to have a voice. When we called for the resignation of Dale Mitchell (in 2009 I think) we sent a press release out and designated  various Vs in various time zones to speak to the press if interested. It worked.

But at that time, we had no rapport with the CSA and were being literally attacked by security at home games for waving flags and chanting. 

The other view is that some issues can still be raised but outside the supporter group context. That it need not be the catch-all for everything. That it could just have a limited but important role-supporter sections at matches, supporter culture-- and only restrict itself to opinions related to it. So if we can't get tickets, are not treated decently as fans, if our role is not being respected, we would speak out. But not feel it necessary to comment on the environmental cost of expanding the Canal every time we play Panama.

There are some worthwhile precedents to look at where groups erred (my opinion), and lost credit. Such as when the Southsider board came out criticising Kendall Waston for not supporting Pride and saying he had refused to wear the pride captain's band, when in fact he had. 

He almost immediately wanted out of Vancouver and that is pretty screwed up, as I see it (and I wear my Caps Pride t-shirt all over the place, I am not speaking based on my personal alignment).

So do you want to be so woke, and your focus is so skewed that you end up slandering the team captain (and yes, Waston was ambiguous about Pride, but perhaps did not need to be vilified dishonestly for his views and lied about his actions, which I just supposed were related to his interpretation of his Catholic faith).

Edited July 15, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist